Chopin - Etude Op.25, No.11 - "Winter Wind " - Enzo

[emill]

Enzo has been focusing on new pieces to play for his coming solo recital this December 8 at the University of the Philippines.  Among the pieces is the popular Chopin Etude No.11 "Winter wind".

We felt that since it is still well into the practice/polishing stages it would be best to seek the observations of friends in PianoStreet.  I must say that previous inputs from piieces posted in the past have always generated a good amount of discussion between Enzo and his teacher.  We wish some would be so kind to post their thoughts to create the same learning atmosphere.  THANKS!!!!!

[perfect_pitch]

Greetings...

Well, since this is such a popular piece - I won't criticise your interpretation as I don't think there's anything that needs to be fixed anyway.

However, very small technical things:

2:06 - The note should be a D natural in the LH, not D sharp.
2:14-2:22 - Something happened here - I actually think he missed quite a few semiquavers in the RH. At first I thought he just rushed them, but something sounds missing. Watch that RH. Ensure the descending chromatic line can ALWAYS be heard over the other notes.
2:57 onwards - Although he's certainly not doing it as much as in previous videos (like the Liszt Concerto), It isn't necessary to bounce off the stool. He's obviously got a lot of strength in his fingers and arms, and if he bounces up and down on the stool to try and get more dynamics out of the piano - he'll probably create a harsh brittle sound on those notes. I think part of the problem is that he leans over the piano a bit too much - try sitting with a taller, more upright back
3:10-3:15 - Watch how much pedal he uses, sometimes it drowned the cleanliness of the melody in the LH

Apart from that - very little to really be said I think.

[ajspiano]

I'm inclined to agree with perfect pitch in that Enzo looks as if he's trying a little too hard physically at times. The loud sounds can be produced without bouncing up off the stool.

I hate to be so picky though in regard to physical things here though, since Enzo is obviously producing a fluent sound and a musical interpretation.

If was going to make musical comment there are a couple of general things I would consider. Bare in mind thins may be quite difficult to really explain without being in person.

In the RH, Paul Barton made an interesting note that (for the the main line atleast) the notes on the beat form a diminished chord. Perhaps one can feel this harmony against the A minor that's runs offbeat underneath and in the LH. Ofcourse this may already be present in Enzos mind, it's difficult to pick up real subtlties when listening on a phone.

In the left hand everything feels very "straight" - at times you can make more of the dotted rhythm.

How it seems to be now
Dum    Dum      Dum Dum      Dum...

How it could be to make it feel more flowing/swung (sometimes - there should be variance)
Dum    Dum..        D-Dum      Dum.

Or put in words, accentuate the shape of the rhythm. Longer notes longer, shorter notes shorter.

Be able to give the sound of the LH a lot of focus, let it come out strong over the RH and drive the interpretation, the RH as the winding wandering cold winter wind - the LH as the actual story that is happening mid winter.. If that makes any sense.

[ted]

I think this piece demands so much more than the obvious physical brilliance which innumerable highly trained players bring to it. Its psychic implication is huge. I hear a universe collapsing in on itself in a despairing vortex, I hear small, plaintive oases of doomed respite desperately draw breath, only to be torn down by an immutable dark power. It is a piece of titanic romantic struggle in the grand manner. Above all, and most importantly, the skeletons win the game.

Poetic licence of an aging, eccentric improviser who knows little about classical music and doesn't even like most of it ? Yes, of course, and for that reason I seldom comment here. But when we play the piano we are not dealing in facts and mechanics, and certainly not in silly popular allusions to the weather. It is all about illusion and real magic.

Specifically? Well, here's where I shall get myself into real trouble but never mind. A distinguishing feature of this piece, as with many of Chopin's, is his exquisite use of unrelated and abrupt chord changes. This study is full of them, and every one is a gem. B to F, Cm to Em, G to Db ..... you name it, it's probably there. These things beg to find concomitant expression via tempo and dynamics. Exactly how you vary it, strangely, probably doesn't matter as long as it does vary. Then there is that fabulous pair of chords just before the final descent into oblivion. They sound like a titanic boulder swaying at the top of a precipice. Make a bit more of this moment perhaps ? Hang on them a bit ?

I could mention a poultice of other things but I'd be chancing a bollocking from the classical brigade. In any case it amounts to the same thing. You have all the notes, the dexterity, the flair. Now is the time to start going beyond that and begin the infinitely more difficult, and lifelong task of establishing the underlying emotional and psychic associations for yourself - and only you can do that.

I always enjoy your playing. I'd be interested in hearing what you would do with some of my romantic Philippine pieces.

[ajspiano]

I'd be chancing a bollocking from the classical brigade.

Do you really care if that happens?

More on topic, I rather thought your comments to be quite insightful as far as how to think regarding abrupt chord changes..  however, the ones you mentioned, specifically B-F and G-Db i don't think of as unrelated so much as intrinsically connected, owing to the fact that they can frequently share chord-tones (depending the quality of the harmony obviously) or they fit into a range of other shared chords making them interchangeable with each other despite it sometimes sounding abrupt.

I'd be rather interested to hear the extended version of your thoughts.

..frankly, if anyone wants to tell you (or anyone else) how to think in regard to music in a bollocking brigade like fashion they can kindly move on.

[ted]

You're right. In a sense everything is related to everything else; it's just matter of how you perceive the effect. If you're used to a lot of Bach, an F# chord played with a C chord seems drastically unrelated, but if you're accustomed to Tatum, Williams and the jazz players it occurs so often that the brain gets used to it and expects it. It then becomes normal, becomes related. But it seems to me that Chopin did extend the landscape of changes in a very attractive way, a way which still appeals to the modern ear. The other property of this piece, and of much of Chopin in general, is that he never wrote homogeneously like Liszt and most others of that time. He didn't string patterns and blocks together in clearly separated groups. The content of his figures is usually subject to ambiguity of perception, and that's why he's more vital; at least that's how it seems to me. Notice how rare straight scales are in Chopin. Just one at the end of this piece, some in the Ab polonaise and the G minor ballade - that's about it. Everybody else's music of that time and before was riddled with them - when in doubt stick in a spangled scale. He broke that mould.

[candlelightpiano]

Awesome, Enzo!  You give me the shivers!!  Your winter wind is vicious and filled with fury most of the time, which is what the winter wind is like here in Winterpeg.     The calmer, quieter moments were a nice contrast from the ferocity, like a calm before the next great storm.  I can't provide any helpful feedback but your performance is brilliant. I always enjoy watching you perform.  Thanks for sharing.

[costicina]

You always find the ay to surprise us, Enzo!!!!

In spite of some flaws that the experts among us have already pointed out, I liked immensely  you passionate interpretation, Enzo! This formidable Etude sometimes sounds boring (Chopin, forgive me!) whithout fine calibrated nuances, and you made remarkable efforts to preserve the 'suspence', the 'motum perpetuum' the thunderous character of the piece. As always, the musician inside  you rules, leading you in the right direction. Bravo!!!!

P.S. I found AJ suggestion for the melody line very interesting, and perfectly in tune with your way to feel this Etude.

[49410enrique]

i wish i could offer more constructive criticism but i am just not super familiar with the work (unlike so many pianostreet members, i am not super in love with the chopin etudes, do not get me wrong i like them, i just don't listen to them all the time and have only seriously studied a couple out of each set). still, i very much enjoyed this viddy, i wish enzo the best of luck with the recital and am anxious to see the improvement between this WIP and the performance verison!

i will say he managed to hold my attention for longer than many recordings seem to  that is, i sometimes have a  bit of a short attention span with these etudes (as a listener), unless something unbelievably profound is said musically in the first 20 seconds or so, i tend to 'check out' mentally and many times do not finish the recording. i played this twice back to back. super cool performance!

[starstruck5]

Awesome rendition for me.  I found myself comparing Enzo's performance to that of Yundi Li -my favourite interpretation.  The fact that the older more experienced performer ticks all the boxes of my convictions regarding this etude raises some interesting points -how much of Yundi Li's extremely polished playing is down to artistic conviction and how much is it due to sheer repetition is impossible to answer -Li's sextuplet figures are wonderfully demonical -they are a torrent of forceful malevolence -Enzo doesn't match this always -but there are occasional glimpses of it -his dynamics and phrasing are brilliant -Chopin obviously alternates between a melody which is almost a straight line -with spans just a perfect fourth, also is rhythmically consistent -to melodic phrases which are as wild and unrooted as is possible, both in terms of pitch and rhythm -It is easy to think of this as representative of the Human Spirit struggling to hold on to sanity in the face of unrelenting catastrophe -when the two hands finally unite in unison it seems that malevolance has triumphed -but the piece ends heroically with that rising A Minor scale -You could think of it in terms of a big finish where Chopin is merely establishing a tonal resolution, or the conclusion to a musical journey -a victory for the Human Spirit.

Some people say that they prefer Richter or Listisa or whoever -but all have musical conviction -in Richters case it is probably, ' I will play it faster then any human' -but nevertheless it strikes a chord with some listeners -I think Enzo already has a good teacher and is very thoughtful, but the more analysis, and performance of this etude the better -but what a promising foundation!

[chopin2015]

Your right hand is too loud in some spots, but very solid rhythm in the right hand. But stop focusing on it as much.  I am auditioning with this as one of my pieces in (now february and I think I have arthritis from this one) so I can honestly tell you my favorite winter wind is by Richter and it is really hard to achieve this piece at a great standard.  Anyways. Very good speed and nice job on this. Keep up the good work.

[emill]

Hello!!!

I am happy and quite surprised at the response that this "winter wind" etude generated to say the least.  I think Enzo wanted to hear suggestions at earlier stages of learning the piece, unlike before where it was well into the last 2-3 weeks prior to the recital when we posted. This time we are just into the 6-7th week of preparations and the recital is still 8 weeks away on December 8, enough time to make even significant changes/improvements.  I also hope that when we will post the other pieces, it will get the same response.  THANKS!!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=452539881455176&set=a.280160968693069.66995.157117047664129&type=1&theater

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Again I wish to apologize for such silence on the part of my son, yet I know he is absorbing and sorting every comment and attempts to play those in order to hear for himself the suggestions made.  He often engages his teacher about these. I know he seeks to hear opinions of others by asking me to post his "practice" session on a particular piece here in pianostreet.

How I wish he would be more open as he grows up to be a young man, but he still keeps to himself a lot.  I encouraged him to discuss the things he brings up with his teacher with PianoStreet friends, but it seems difficult for him at the moment to communicate openly.  My wife and I have long accepted that he is "different".  He seems to and loves to communicate through his music. We thank you so much for this almost one-way communication, but I know and am sure it is helping him.