stronger fingers

[outin]

About your web pages...I am going to be brutally honest now, don't take it the wrong way...I have never managed to really read through any of them, there's just too much explanation and gets very long and tedious to me and I stop reading after a while. Sorry, It's just me, I need things to be short and to the point. This doesn't mean you haven't done good work and don't have some well thought of exercises. When I was struggling I needed to gain some knowledge about the anatomy of the hand and what muscles are involved. Before I did it was very difficult to understand what my teacher wanted me to do and most importantly why...

[nyiregyhazi]

About your web pages...I am going to be brutally honest now, don't take it the wrong way...I have never managed to really read through any of them, there's just too much explanation and gets very long and tedious to me and I stop reading after a while. Sorry, It's just me, I need things to be short and to the point. This doesn't mean you haven't done good work and don't have some well thought of exercises. When I was struggling I needed to gain some knowledge about the anatomy of the hand and what muscles are involved. Before I did it was very difficult to understand what my teacher wanted me to do and most importantly why...

Did you look at the specific posts I linked for you? Earlier posts were much more general, relating to broad background issues. I deliberately avoided going into the absolute specifics for precisely the reasons you describe- because I didn't want to write something subjective that I might later change my mind on. I avoided the core issues until I was sure I had got them in a form I'd be happy with. The posts I linked are totally specific to the most basic essentials of movement in the hand-with scarcely any scientific background at all. I have found value in some of Thomas marks writing, but I find anatomy limited personally. It tells you what your body can and can't do- but it does not directly relate how to perform to the specific actions that are essential to piano playing. For me, understanding which actions to deploy and how to perceive them is more important than anatomy. Anatomy exposes what not to do, but it's only especially revealing when referenced with what makes control and efficiency of energy transfer possible at the instrument. It needs to be viewed in terms of what it is directly relevant to- or you only learn to relax your body better but not to expand the limits of what you can extract from the piano with it. For me this is where Thomas mark falls down- by writing a lot of rationally dubious stuff as soon as he goes from anatomy to playing tips.

I appreciate that some people are not prepared to go into depth and want simple answers, but I avoid that for all the reasons you listed. Simplistic answers will always be subjective ones that can harm as many as they help. However, if you haven't read the particular posts I linked, I'm wondering whether you've misjudged the nature of my core posts, due to having only looked at broader ones. The ones I linked are certainly not complex.

[nyiregyhazi]

When I talk about strengthening the muscles I do not mean to produce more muscle power. I wonder if you are aware, that muscles which are too tense often are so because they are too weak, not because they are too strong.

Are you sure it's this way around? I'd say that the muscles are weak BECAUSE they spend so much time generically tensed. Rather than strengthening them, this kind of activity can atrophy them. In my opinion, exercise helps because it teaches you to let go of them- rather than keep locking them up in a rigid position. Sure, exercise can help to strengthen things- but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's an act of strengthening that has made the difference. It's perfectly logical to think that the exercise just trained you to let go of a tension that was impeding you and that this was the primary source of change.

To correct the wrist I had to make the forearm muscles stronger to be able to work and relax at will instead of just be cramped or completely unfunctional.

Does strengthening muscles make that happen? I don't personally believe so. I think it's more about the quality of how the hand is connecting to the piano. It's not a case of generically gaining strength and therefore being able to relax at will. The hand of a sumo wrestler can be poorly connected and hence dependent on many tensions. The hand of a hunger-striker can be very well connected and take the whole workload of support off the wrist (when coupled with equally low effort shoulder activity). In most cases, it's a matter of learning how to achieve more efficient balance. From there, some strength does tend to evolve through the actions involved, but I don't believe that generic strength makes it come about. I'd say it's much more likely that you learned how to let go of habitual tensions- which freed you up to perceive useful activities more easily.

To do so I needed to "find" these muscles, since I had absolutely no inside feeling whether they were cramped, relaxed or even where they were. So I needed exercises that had nothing to do with playing, but getting back this lost "feeling" of what is happening with the muscles.

This very much seems to confirm what I suggest in the previous paragraph. It's about perception- not strength. These are exactly the kind of exercises I include in my blog- those that train you to release the specific efforts that serve no pianistic function while training you to perceive those that are can be objectively proven as indispensable.

As you know the muscles involved are not necessarily at the pivot, so I assumed you would not misinterpret what I wrote about the wrist and muscle balance.

I wrote what I did, because it's very unusual for anyone to blame weak muscles for wrist issues- while actually referring to the muscles that connect the hands to the keys. If you'd immediately said that you were talking about insufficient quality of connection to the keyboard, I'd have seen what you mean. However, the fact that you were talking of "strength" made me assume you were looking at precisely that. I think what you are referring to as development "strength" is primarily a process of having learned to release muscles that were previously hampering you- not a case of improving due to added muscular strength. It's much more about what the brain asks the muscles to do than how strong they are. Bad alignments make you feel like you need more strength- but it's more about fine tuning muscular actions, so you involve the useful ones and eliminate the counterproductive ones.

[outin]

Did you look at the specific posts I linked for you?

I did now and there seems to be some very practical exercises, with videos, which are much more helpful than just words.

I appreciate that some people are not prepared to go into depth and want simple answers, but I avoid that for all the reasons you listed. Simplistic answers will always be subjective ones that can harm as many as they help. However, if you haven't read the particular posts I linked, I'm wondering whether you've misjudged the nature of my core posts, due to having only looked at broader ones. The ones I linked are certainly not complex.

I do not look for simple answers, my problem is that trying to explain something simply with words to someone who does not have adequate basic knowledge of concepts and structures is difficult and using more words is not always the answer. I don't like most of the books I have on technique, the way things are explained with so much irrelevant stuff added is tedious because I personally would need much less to get the point. But often the most relevant knowledge is actually missing...

I don't know who Thomas is? My reference to anatomy was to things like I did not actually know before that there are separate muscles in the palm working the knuckle joints that need to be activated in playing and I how they actually work. I also did not know exactly what the forearm muscles can and cannot do. My teacher was telling me to work the fingers more, keep the hand firm and relax the wrist. But I didn't know how. I couldn't activate the muscles in the palm at will so I also couldn't relax the ones in the forearm because they were the primary movers of the fingers. After I learned this simple thing, it took my playing to a whole new level. All I needed was a simple explanation where these muscles are and what they can do and I understood what I needed to change. After that it took a bit more to actually get that into practice, but I made up exercises of my own to do that...

[nyiregyhazi]

I did now and there seems to be some very practical exercises, with videos, which are much more helpful than just words.

Okay, fair enough. I appreciate where you're coming from in terms of some of the other posts- which are more generic background. The core posts I'm working at currently are the direct applications of earlier background posts, which are intended to be extremely practical at all times. I'd even actually advise anyone reading my blog to start with the three core posts (of which only the first has yet been published) and go back to the earlier ones for additional details later.

I don't like most of the books I have on technique, the way things are explained with so much irrelevant stuff added is tedious because I personally would need much less to get the point. But often the most relevant knowledge is actually missing...

I agree. I haven't found anything else as as useful as Alan Fraser's books- especially his recent all thumbs. However, there are few extra objective issues- that I'm finding can save some time if added to his exercises. I like that he shows you how to "feel" things- but I think some things are even easier to feel with particular objective concepts added to his exercises. In particular, he doesn't specifically describe the extension activity that makes low effort balance possible while keeping a key depressed. Since I realised that it's this simple act of extending out a little, that his exercises need to trigger, things have improved drastically.
  

I don't know who Thomas is? My reference to anatomy was to things like I did not actually know before that there are separate muscles in the palm working the knuckle joints that need to be activated in playing and I how they actually work. I also did not know exactly what the forearm muscles can and cannot do. My teacher was telling me to work the fingers more, keep the hand firm and relax the wrist. But I didn't know how.

Absolutely. These are the issues that interest me and that I strive to clarify answers to. Anatomy is one part of it- but it's an issue of mechanics that determines whether it can even be physically possible to achieve all of those at the same time. If it's mechanically impossible due to one element being off, it's very hard to feel your way to an answer. I've revently discovered some very important issues in terms of what "firm" has to involve. It's a very easy thing to misunderstand- in a way that will automatically cause wrist tension. I've discovered some very specific issues that make the whole "firmness" thing possible without tension. It's a matter of creating firmness almost as a by-product of deploying finger actions in perfect balance with contact with the keys- not of the same "firmness" that you can do in mid air. My post on the fingers illustrates the sheer difference between the two at the end and contains an exercise with which to perceive this huge difference. The one I'm writing now goes even further into this fundamental issue. The way people usually interpret the word "firm" is totally at odds with the possibility of avoiding significant tension, unless you can happen to perceive a very specific manner of creating "firmness". For me, this is a defining issue that determines the control over every single note a pianist ever plays.

[outin]

Are you sure it's this way around? I'd say that the muscles are weak BECAUSE they spend so much time generically tensed. Rather than strengthening them, this kind of activity can atrophy them.

That is exactly what I meant (and I think I tried to write it as well?). The muscles have become weak and they need to learn to both relax and get stronger. That's how my physiotherapist puts it...but I guess he would say anything to fool me into actually exercising  

In my opinion, exercise helps because it teaches you to let go of them- rather than keep locking them up in a rigid position. Sure, exercise can help to strengthen things- but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's an act of strengthening that has made the difference. It's perfectly logical to think that the exercise just trained you to let go of a tension that was impeding you and that this was the primary source of change.

I think this is about how we define the concepts and since I am writing in a foreign language I am using words that are closests to what I mean, they may not be the ones you would use. To me it doesn't really matter so much which way it is put in words, the point is the exercises enable the muscles to do their job better...

This very much seems to confirm what I suggest in the previous paragraph. It's about perception- not strength.

I guess in my mind these are very closely connected and you cannot have one without the other...A normally working muscle is a strong muscle (according to its size of course). Whether the strength comes from a well working nervous system or the actual size or speed of the muscle cells makes no difference to me, it's the end results that counts.

[nyiregyhazi]

I guess in my mind these are very closely connected and you cannot have one without the other...A normally working muscle is a strong muscle (according to its size of course). Whether the strength comes from a well working nervous system or the actual size or speed of the muscle cells makes no difference to me, it's the end results that counts.

True- I see what you mean. I think it's just that so many people read the word "strength" in a radically different way and usually mean it at face value- also given how much is about unnecessary muscles relaxing, it's not even about working better but merely staying out of it altogether, in many cases.For this reason, I prefer to think in terms of "quality" of usage and control over muscles- rather than strength.