Piano Street Competition - Round 1

[j_menz]

Is it not possible then that the listener may go on to produce pages of drivel in an attempt to express what "wow" is and how it is achieved by the performer?

Not only possible, but if the listener is a music critic it seems to be mandatory.

[ajspiano]

Not only possible, but if the listener is a music critic it seems to be mandatory.

Pianist Valentina Lisitsa played with an urgent intensity which explains how she has racked up 43 million hits on YouTube.

VS

Pianist Valentina Lisitsa played with an urgent intensit... screw it. WOW.

...

The latter may infact sell more concert tickets, but less magazine subscriptions.

[j_menz]

The latter may infact sell more concert tickets, but less magazine subscriptions.

Fewer, not less. 

I generally don't read music critics (or indeed any others). The need for a bucket spoils the read all too often.  GB Shaw is an exception, though.

[thesuineg]

sniff sniff*
it was a later edit
sniff sniff*



ah but as long as I get to listen to the pieces its ok. I was sure you wouldn't even consider making me a judge, makes me happy that at least you considered it before someone began pointing fingers.




On the other hand, it was because I didn't like his 3rd ballade very much, and I realized every one else was giving compliments, so I decided to criticize under kind remarks.




ignore me

[ajspiano]

sniff sniff*
it was a later edit
sniff sniff*

You'll have to forgive us..  we can be a little blunt..  we're not horrible people really..  well, at least I'm not. J_menz openly declared that he's a mean person once.

Forums are a bit like a never ending hazing ritual..  I'm sure if you went through my 2000 posts you could find something that I've said to make fun of.. 

As a side note, it helps to mark your edits to avoid such confusion sometimes.

[thesuineg]

Oh.....will the competition people post on youtube?

[ajspiano]

Oh.....will the competition people post on youtube?

Thats what I'm hoping, people are to forward their links to me.. or their mp3s, either way I'm intending to make sure that every entry is youtube accessible even if its audio only.

[starstruck5]

Who are doing second pieces and what are they?

I was going to play the Schubert Eb Impromptu -but I think it will take a bit longer to nail -so I am going for the much played Chopin Waltz in C# Minor -Opus 64 No.2.  Couldn't find anything leftfield which interested me right now -

Methinks it would also be cool to start a competition for an original piano piece -played by the composer -but not until next year -

[keypeg]

I've worked on the Chopin Em and Cm preludes, but I don't know yet if I'm adding anything else.

[costicina]

Costanza has not changed her mind: Bach Invention n 8...
Perhaps it's too easy? 

[j_menz]

I'm doing the equivalent number in the Schumann Album for the young.  It's short and "simple" too, but I thought there was a certain logic to it. Haven't started it yet, though.

[j_menz]

J_menz openly declared that he's a mean person once.

I did not. I said I wasn't a nice person.  "Mean" suggests malice or disposition, "not nice" implies lack of effort or care.

I'm sure if you went through my 2000 posts you could find something that I've said to make fun of.. 

Your little grammatical slip just a bit up the page comes to mind, and should be easier to find. 

[ajspiano]

I did not. I said I wasn't a nice person.  "Mean" suggests malice or disposition, "not nice" implies lack of effort or care.

..maybe I meant that your niceness was of an average level.

[j_menz]

..maybe I meant that your niceness was of an average level.

It is directly proportional to my blood caffeine concentration.

[starstruck5]

Costanza has not changed her mind: Bach Invention n 8...
Perhaps it's too easy? 

Bach is never easy!  Costanza has my respect.

[black_keys]

I'm thinking about Scriabin etude op8 no 12

[chopin2015]

I'm thinking about Scriabin etude op8 no 12

What, what grade is it? (I did stutter)

[rachmaninoff_forever]

What, what grade is it? (I did stutter)

8+

[chopin2015]

8+

I see, and I was under the impression that for the competition we were to do the required piece and an optional piece grade 7 or lower. I'm just complaining, though.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I see, and I was under the impression that for the competition we were to do the required piece and an optional piece grade 7 or lower. I'm just complaining, though.

It is supposed to be grade 7 or lower lol.

[chopin2015]

Indeed, gives the Scriabin guy enough time for the next competition.

[lostinidlewonder]

Those that are doing an "own choice piece" (grade 7 and under) when they have made their decision can they be written in the opening post? This gives us following the competition time to access the sheets and have them ready when listening to the recordings.

Could judges also get recordings (or links to them) forwarded to them as they are posted rather than getting them all at once? Appraising the works over number of days and not all getting them all at once will provide better thought out commentary.

Could there also be some guideline as what % rates are used for elements of the adjudication? Specifically I am concerned over what % should recording/instrument quality play on the final result? If left to my own devices I personally would put close to 50% of the result based on the presentation of recording and instrument quality. If I hear a low bit-rate recording with static and an out of tune piano, I really find it difficult to see past that and imagine the better sound. I would have to heavily deduct marks because I am not going to pretend I hear something that would probably have been there if i was listening there in person but the poor recording quality missed it.

[keypeg]

The purpose of this competition was to encourage people to participate, especially those who normally wouldn't.  This idea of penalizing someone by 50% if they don't have a good instrument and good recording equipment.  That is not the same as penalizing someone because they didn't do their homework or didn't practice - we have a choice about that.  This is being penalized for not having the money to afford quality equipment.  It is saying that no matter how hard you try and how much you improve your piece, it doesn't matter.  How encouraging is that?

[costicina]

  ::)Lostinidlewonder  has raised an important problem. It's difficult to judge a performance regardless of the quality of the instrument and recording device. In a ideal situation every partecipant should be allowed to play an instrument of the same quality level.
Anyway  I think that Keypeg is right.

I'm sure that many partecipants can perform the piece far better than Costanza, who has the privilege to play on a Steinway baby grand, while they have only a lousy digital.   But it  would be so unfair if this fact, totally indipendent from her talent/effort etc., if this  sort of 'undeserved privilege' should influence the judges' response.

Maybe our omnipotent AJ will find a brilliant solution to this dilemma?

[black_keys]

Ahh sorry I didnt notice that the other piece should be under grade 7  my bad . So im going to choose another one

[chopin2015]

Ahh sorry I didnt notice that the other piece should be under grade 7  my bad . So im going to choose another one

It's cool, I am sure we will have a advanced amateur/pianist competition, hopefully next year after january though, because I will be in Russia.

[lostinidlewonder]

Keypeg I didn't say I'd penalise 50% (deduct it all from final result).

Since this competition is a recorded presentation there must be marks for the recording quality, to ignore it or make it irrelevant would be extremely peculiar (as it would take imagination to judge). Like I said I wouldn't want to pretend to hear anything just because a very poor recording makes it impossible to do so without. If for example notes are lost in sustain from a digital because its polyphony cannot sustain the notes you will lose marks. Does an adjudicator give excuses for these things and instead say they could imagine it instead? I think that would be inaccurate judgement.

Recording quality and instrument quality play a large role IMO, that is the nature of recorded competitions. If you have bad equips and instruments its not your fault but you limit your expression and after all you are satisfied after many takes what you finally post is your best effort. No excuses should be made for under par tools just as it would be silly to ignore the high standard of quality recordings.

Good tools doesn't win you marks but it avoids you losing them. Good tools but bad playing of course will yield a poor mark, good playing with bad tools will yield a mark that is adversely affected by the poor tools (by how much depends on how much the presentation was handicapped by the poor tools.)

[starstruck5]

The purpose of this competition was to encourage people to participate, especially those who normally wouldn't.  This idea of penalizing someone by 50% if they don't have a good instrument and good recording equipment.  That is not the same as penalizing someone because they didn't do their homework or didn't practice - we have a choice about that.  This is being penalized for not having the money to afford quality equipment.  It is saying that no matter how hard you try and how much you improve your piece, it doesn't matter.  How encouraging is that?

It is not just not being able to afford quality equipment -I was on the verge of buying a Bechstein until my lousy neighbours became spiteful and vindictive -I have no choice but to record on my Kawai digital, and not at the volume I would think ideal - -it is one of the finer upright digitals you can buy though - -but I won't argue with anyone who says it isn't the real deal -  My ancient upright is actually much worse in some respects -I can't really set myself to record on it -while waiting for my neighbours to both go out -it doesn't happen very often -and so this isn't practical -so it is not just a function of money -there are other circumstances -

It is a shame we can't all record on the same piano, with the same pro recording equipment -It isn't the Leeds Piano Competition though -so we all can only do the best we can with what we have .  I already suspect there will be prejudice against a digital piano recording -but so be it -

[keypeg]

Lostinidlewonder - here is what I see fair.  If a student knows how to bring out subtlety, but the instrument is too limited to allow that to be brought out, then the playing can't be judged on what might be there, only on what is there.  The instrument's quality has an effect.  Or the student and instrument do actually produce that subtlety but the recording equipment does not capture it.  Again no judgment can be made on what can't be heard.  What is not fair is to make part of the grading based on how good a student's equipment is.  And it also has the effect of discouraging those who don't have the equipment.  This forum has a lot of people who had to start music late in life because they were locked out for those very reasons, and are also timid to show their faces.  It can be demoralizing to think that even here, trying one's best is not good enough: marks being accorded because of recording quality means that participants will we rewarded or penalized because of what they own rather than what they do.  This is not a good message to give to students, especially in this kind of forum.

[chopin2015]

well I do not have a way to record audio and video at the same time other than a video camera. I do not have one that has a mic in. But I will be doing this for fun and will only use the resources I have.

[j_menz]

Lostinidlewonder - here is what I see fair.  If a student knows how to bring out subtlety, but the instrument is too limited to allow that to be brought out, then the playing can't be judged on what might be there, only on what is there.  The instrument's quality has an effect.  Or the student and instrument do actually produce that subtlety but the recording equipment does not capture it.  Again no judgment can be made on what can't be heard.  What is not fair is to make part of the grading based on how good a student's equipment is.  And it also has the effect of discouraging those who don't have the equipment.  This forum has a lot of people who had to start music late in life because they were locked out for those very reasons, and are also timid to show their faces.  It can be demoralizing to think that even here, trying one's best is not good enough: marks being accorded because of recording quality means that participants will we rewarded or penalized because of what they own rather than what they do.  This is not a good message to give to students, especially in this kind of forum.

+ 1

Might I add, it is not going to be very useful if you devote time or effort telling me that I'm not playing on a Steinway D with a recording studio and sound engineer to make Hyperion jealous. I already know that.

 The judges are, to a point, going to have to look past some instrumental and recording shortcomings. If you don't believe you can do that (or at least give it the old college try), perhaps you should reconsider your involvement.

[lostinidlewonder]

Lostinidlewonder - here is what I see fair.  If a student knows how to bring out subtlety, but the instrument is too limited to allow that to be brought out, then the playing can't be judged on what might be there, only on what is there.  The instrument's quality has an effect.  Or the student and instrument do actually produce that subtlety but the recording equipment does not capture it.  Again no judgment can be made on what can't be heard.

I agree, as an adjudicator we can point out certain quality that draws good marks in terms of playing but if a bad quality recording masks this we can highlight that it is doing so.

What is not fair is to make part of the grading based on how good a student's equipment is. 

But if a poor recording quality makes the listener miss out on a lot of expressive issues how can you ignore that? The competition IS a recording competition not a live and because its not live we don't have people all congregating in one spot with the same piano. So this throws out a standard that we expect to see in live competitions which usually has one or two instruments to choose from. Pianostreet competition has 15 different pianos with 15 different recording tools, this creates a complexity that needs to be also used to score the adjudication. To me at least this is a very important issue and what draws me to judge this event since I've not had the opportunity to do this in live competitions.

And it also has the effect of discouraging those who don't have the equipment.  This forum has a lot of people who had to start music late in life because they were locked out for those very reasons, and are also timid to show their faces.  It can be demoralizing to think that even here, trying one's best is not good enough: marks being accorded because of recording quality means that participants will we rewarded or penalized because of what they own rather than what they do.  This is not a good message to give to students, especially in this kind of forum.

This is not demoralising in my view. If you walk on stage with flip flops, singlet and boxer shorts you will be penalised for presentation in most competitions. If you know your tools are not the best quality you could certainly search for a place to dress up at least for the recording if it is important to you. If it is not important then don't worry about it. It is the entrants judgement to ensure what they have musically put into their recording can be clearly observed, if they fail to capture it then they of course need to be marked accordingly. I have many sound restoring tools on my computer so I can see though a lot of bad recording and hear the good subtle "stuff" if it has been captured in any way. But if it is totally lost or the instrument itself ignores it, it does shave off some marks, if that REALLY demoralises you then do something about it, start saving money, find a place that has good tools, stop excuses.

Might I add, it is not going to be very useful if you devote time or effort telling me that I'm not playing on a Steinway D with a recording studio and sound engineer to make Hyperion jealous. I already know that.

That would be an empty way to look at it I agree.

The judges are, to a point, going to have to look past some instrumental and recording shortcomings. If you don't believe you can do that (or at least give it the old college try), perhaps you should reconsider your involvement.

What is "to a point" though? You can see past things to patch up the holes in the presentation but you can't go so far as to imagine musicality because of the static or poor digital or out of tune honky tonk piano or or....

I don't think I need to reconsider my involvement but I would find judging by totally neglecting recording quality will be very odd and in fact missing out on an important aspect of recorded competitions. I think it is important to have discussion about it if people are interested in what would draw the greatest marks in recorded competitions.

[j_menz]

What is "to a point" though? You can see past things to patch up the holes in the presentation but you can't go so far as to imagine musicality because of the static or poor digital or out of tune honky tonk piano or or....

I don't think I need to reconsider my involvement but I would find judging by totally neglecting recording quality will be very odd and in fact missing out on an important aspect of recorded competitions. I think it is important to have discussion about it if people are interested in what would draw the greatest marks in recorded competitions.

Agreed. Perhaps it is a matter of not labouring the point in the commentary. Simply advising what you could not tell because of the recording or instrumental shortcomings.

[keypeg]

This is not demoralising in my view. If you walk on stage with flip flops, singlet and boxer shorts you will be penalized for presentation in most competitions.

Coming out in boxer shorts would be a choice, though a weird one.  If the person has no proper shoes then his teacher would probably arrange for him to get a borrowed pair.  In fact, when I was in a choir during a harder period in my life, I did wear donated clothing - the long black skirt and the black shoes.  Pianos cost thousands of dollars - more than a pair of shoes.

... at least for the recording if it is important to you. If it is not important then don't worry about it. 

What is important is playing virtually in front of a group for a first time, being part of a group. What is important is doing one's best with what one has learned and is able to do, draw out of the music what one can.  Recording is the only way that we can try to transmit this - the point is the playing, not the recording.  It is demoralizing when you are helpless because of the equipment you are able to have, if that equipment, rather than your efforts, is taken into account.  Again - if our transmitted performance suffers because of poor equipment, that is fair.  But to have marks taken off because you cannot afford better equipment, that is the part that is demoralizing.

But if it is totally lost or the instrument itself ignores it, it does shave off some marks

That is fair, and it is not demoralizing, because it is fair.

The bottom line is that we can only do what we are able to do.  And for some of us, top equipment is not feasible.

[keypeg]

It is also possible that I am not understanding what you are really saying about equipment quality and marks.

[j_menz]

It is also possible that I am not understanding what you are really saying about equipment quality and marks.

I certainly didn't at first.

If I'm getting it right, I think what LIW means is that there are certain things that a bad piano or a bad recording will simply prevent a listener from hearing or being able to assess and that it is not possible (and not fair) to assume that what cannot be discerned is in fact present. That I agree with, as it seems to me both self evident and inevitable.  That is not to discourage people from presenting pieces that have these faults, simply highlighting that it will inevitably reflect poorly on the result.

My suggestion is to do the best you can with what you have, but be aware that you may not be presenting yourself in the best possible light and basically live with that. That is, in any case, the approach I shall be taking.

[keypeg]

I certainly didn't at first.

If I'm getting it right, I think what LIW means is that there are certain things that a bad piano or a bad recording will simply prevent a listener from hearing or being able to assess and that it is not possible (and not fair) to assume that what cannot be discerned is in fact present. That I agree with, as it seems to me both self evident and inevitable.  That is not to discourage people from presenting pieces that have these faults, simply highlighting that it will inevitably reflect poorly on the result.

Yes, that makes sense.

What I first imagine was a kind of grading list, with "equipment" being say 20% of the mark, and something being deducted from this section merely for having lesser equipment.  I no longer think this was meant.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Just thought that I should share this with you guys for no particular reason.

[j_menz]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Just thought that I should share this with you guys for no particular reason.

Ouch!

[chopin2015]

Ouch!

oh nooo :*(((((( It was so pretty...why did he stop? Forget to breathe? I sometimes wake up on the floor next to my piano the cars are playing it all awesome like and laughing at me.

[j_menz]

I sometimes wake up on the floor next to my piano the cars are playing it all awesome like and laughing at me.

Aren't you a little young to be drinking?

[chopin2015]

oh I also meant the cats, not cars. My cats are fantastic piano players. And yes I am, I do not drink.

[ajspiano]

Sounds like we need to petition piano street to provide 15 steinways...   only that seems to make the prize for our event seem a bit trivial. Oh wait, its already trivial.

LIIW is obviously right, the recording quality matters. It does not seem relevant or fair to pass judgment on that in a scoring sense though. Its just a reality that poor gear will result in sub-par recordings and we have to deal with that. I don't think its something that we can easily resolve so we'll just have to deal with it..  recordings will have to be judged on the sound and sound alone, and if your gear negatively impacts your performance thats your bad luck I guess.

However I don't feel it matters enough to swing the result.. unless your recording method is a horror show.  A poor carpenter blames his tools right?

I have a relatively nice piano, protools and a pair of rather attractive microphones but I would wager I could put in a competitive performance on my keyboard using my iPhone to record... because I can play the piano

.......

I agree with LIIW that the differing equipment creates a judging problem..  I can't think how one can fairly resolve it though? I mean does costanza start with less points than starstruck because she has a steinway vs his DP..  who decides on what the instrument handicap is? (because I'm not).. 

As has been mentioned this is very much a trial and the act of doing it is presenting these concerns..  though I don't feel there is a need to make too much of the concern at this stage as we don't really know how everyones gear stacks up..  we may all be relatively well matched once everything is considered.

........

@lostinidlewonder, regarding your query about judging over a series of days...   The plan is to present all the recordings in a single thread and allow the forum to comment/vote for 1-2 weeks. So that allows up to 14 days before I'll want to be announcing anything.. this is to happen at the start of January. As far as scores, I'm hoping I'll be able to find everything on IMSLP and post links with the recordings (seems the easiest way to avoid any copyright issues). I know I'll personally have scores for everything because I have PS gold membership, but I can't share those scores publicly or Nils will shoot me...   Ofcourse, I also think he should let me as a means to advertise gold membership..

At this stage I'm thinking that we may consider the result a combination of general votes and your (and anyone else's) proper judged scoring. (anyone's thoughts on this?)

......

rach4eva.
That video was horrifying. I've seen that happen live before at an event I was personally in... I think everyone feels absolutely horrible when it happens, not just the performer.

[keypeg]

Just a thought since we're discussing recordings.  I don't know if everyone is aware that some kinds of recording equipment "balances" sound.  That's great if people are speaking and one person is loud and another quiet, and the system equalizes it.  However, if you are creating dynamics then the system also "balances" it so that your crescendo .... no longer is ..... or your contrasting voices ... no longer are.  It doesn't do it completely, but it does kill some of the contrast.  Fun, isn't it?

[ajspiano]

Just a thought since we're discussing recordings.  I don't know if everyone is aware that some kinds of recording equipment "balances" sound.  That's great if people are speaking and one person is loud and another quiet, and the system equalizes it.  However, if you are creating dynamics then the system also "balances" it so that your crescendo .... no longer is ..... or your contrasting voices ... no longer are.  It doesn't do it completely, but it does kill some of the contrast.  Fun, isn't it?

I suspect compression will be an issue for most phones or regular videorecorders..  not something we are going to get around without higher end gear..

[lostinidlewonder]

Cool ajspiano thanks for the info. I really do hope that there is more than one judge, there needs to be at least 3 for a fair result and to avoid bias. Btw is there 15 people doing their own selection piece as well?

[keypeg]

I suspect compression will be an issue for most phones or regular videorecorders..  not something we are going to get around without higher end gear..

What does that mean?

[chopin2015]

What does that mean?

[ajspiano]

What does that mean?

It means what you said...

Dynamic range compression, also called DRC (often seen in DVD and car CD player settings) or simply compression reduces the volume of loud sounds or amplifies quiet sounds by narrowing or "compressing" an audio signal's dynamic range. Compression is commonly used in sound recording and reproduction and broadcasting.

that along with "limiting" no doubt..  Its a standard feature of most video recorders.. they are not designed to make good sound recordings..  they are designed to capture the desired sound clearly whether its loud or soft.

Where as, I can record with out it if I use pro tools..

[chopin2015]

here is some more bunny examples of Audio processing
https://tapeop.com/photos/88/bunnies/