LEarning new pieces super fast??

[proklover]

Ok, so I was at a music camp, and I met these FANTASTIC players. One kid learned Rachmaninoff etude tableaux op 39 number 5 over the weekend, and he auditioned and played in the honor recital. He also learned scriabin preludes over the course of five days, etc. This other girl learned almost an entire bach partita in a few hours, and could play it from memory.

so, my question is, was i surrounded by GENIUSES? or, are there some specific ways or methods that they do this? I have found that playing very softly and slowly helps me to feel the keys and memorize better, and loudness disrupts my concentration, anyway. ALso, i hav tried analyzing my pieces and "learning" them before I play, but that usually makes the process go even slower. Maybe I am not analyzing it in the right way. I usually analyze as I go, anyway.

Well, enough rambling. IF you are a Genius, please share your genius ways. (is it photographic memory?)

[chopin2015]

I am not a genius but I may be able to talk you through it. It is not a big deal to learn an etude over the course of a weekend if it is not too long for you at first glance and you do not have many difficult things going on. Your sight reading needs to be good, and you should be able to play many things at tempo with minimal effort.  Give it a try. Pick a moderately difficult piece of acceptable length and give it a try. Give yourself minimum amount of days to memorize it. While you memorize sections, get them up to tempo. Work on connecting the sections with smooth transitions. Do hands separate work when you learn sections, make sure to get each hand to indicated tempo, not any slower, etc. You can do it.

[proklover]

so youre saying all I need is a little encouragement? 

[ajspiano]

There are a multitude of processes in play...

Assuming that the piece isn't an absolute monster in comparison to your present ability there are a bunch of "tricks" that help clean up technical concerns and aid memorisation in the process..  ofcourse you use them however insurmountable the challenge, its just some times it takes longer..

How do you go about memorising and solving difficult patches? If the answer re memory is "i read the piece over and over" then you are reading, not memorising. If the answer re difficulties is "I play them in their entirety over and over" or "i play them slowly" then you are missing a whole chunk of different learning strategies..  each applicable to specific types of difficulties.

[chopin2015]

so youre saying all I need is a little encouragement? 

What pieces have you completed recently? Any sets of pieces?

[j_menz]

There are a multitude of processes in play...

It seems to me that memorisation is a skill, or a set of skills, that one learns and develops.  I've done neither and so memorise nothing; plenty of people memorise things with greater or lesser facility. The kids OP mentions are probably less likely to be geniuses than people who have spent time mastering the skills and techniques involved.

[ajspiano]

The kids OP mentions are probably less likely to be geniuses than people who have spent time mastering the skills and techniques involved.

In anycase, I rather suspect the "genius" is using the same fundamental skill set and processes as a well practiced person but they were fortunate enough to have learned and developed them to a high level completely intuitively.

..example, some students will always look at the page.. others will read once then look at their hands, only refering to the score to confirm something.  Guess which ones are better memorisers initially. Guess what happens when I tell the readers to look at their hands when they are trying to memorise something.

[p2u_]

@ proklover

You could say they are geniuses, yes. Some have it by birth; others can learn it in special schools of "Super Learning" or through Zen-like "anti-rush" practice of movement and proprioception at the piano. It has not so much to do with musical or pianistic skills. If we apply this to piano playing only, then what happens in those people is that brain activity is in a hyper-receptive state, a state of relaxed awareness, where certain trigger phrases, key notes/chords, images of black and white, hand positions and fingerings etc. are surprisingly easily received by the subconscious. Both hemispheres of the brain move into perfect balance; as a result, frustrating mental blocks average piano students have don't seem to exist in those people, and everything they go through is easily locked into long-term memory. Listening a lot to classical adagios (the heartbeat of a person at rest) seems to be one of those things that trigger this ability in virtually everyone, but usually our psychological "luggage" then spoils it again.
From my experience, if such gifted students do nothing special to develop their general knowledge and skills in the field they are so good at, then this inborn ability often reaches its peak when the person reaches adolescence and tends to decrease gradually after that.

Paul

[proklover]

Hi all,
Thanks for all the replies!!
First of all, I would like to acknowledge the fact that there ARE multitudes ways to go about memorizing, ie memorization by touch, sound, sight, etc, and a combination of them. And I do know that technical difficulties should be corrected within a few minutes with the right amount of knowledge and ability to apply said knowledge.
i'm just wondering if there's just something special, like paul said that certain people just have. And what I can do to imitate it...
Well, answering what i have learned recently....
I have learned Chopin op. 25 no 12, Rachmaninoff moment musical no. 1 in like a week, and chopin ballade 4 in the past month..and simultaneously working on islamey, beethoven op 81a, bach toccata g minor, prokofiev concerto no 1, ligeti etudes, lisle joyeuse...Yes i know my repertoire sounds very pretentious -____- but  I didn't choose all of it...

[chopin2015]

Hmm, why the prok concerto? there are easier concertos. Beethoven, for example. The other pieces seem fun. Why don't you go for a set of the Rachmaninoff? As for Prok, he has a very small set of etudes and other sets of less difficult works that you could possibly learn the whole set with as much effort as the ballade.

[proklover]

The prok concerto is my favorite out of the five....(don't judge) It's just so simple and beautiful,(kind of like Ravel concerto in G, but then again, Ravel is never simple..) There's not too much of the wrong note-scale-trill stuff found in the later ones, but I guess the later ones are just more developed. I just feel like none of the other ones reach the same kind of euphoria. They all reach the same level of euphoria, just not the same...prokofiev concerto is more intense emotionally, Prok 3 seems too concerto, and by the time you get to 4 and 5, its really introverted. 

aaaaaanyways, chopin2015, I'm actually thinking of doing a set of etudes , through time: Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Debussy, Ligeti, Kapustin...(notice how I skipped liszt...i don't have much taste for him lol)

[chopin2015]

Right on. I do not discourage you. But check out the Prokifiev etude set. There are only 4. you could tackle that as your first set of pieces/etudes. I was not going to share this with anyone because I was going to do this but there are no secrets when this is music available to the public. lol

[p2u_]

i'm just wondering if there's just something special, like paul said that certain people just have. And what I can do to imitate it...

Try reading something about Super Learning, suggestopedia, Dr. Georgi Lozanov, etc.
Concentrate on the matter, not on your dear self. The very fact that you want to be just as good as they are may keep you from progressing. Can you recall the times when learning was still fun? Bring them back consciously and act accordingly with new material. Take your time, don't rush. I noticed that if you give the least gifted just a little more time, space, etc., that they do just as well as the super gifted. And last but not least, you can learn this AT ANY AGE. Just do not expect to force recall of information that is completely incomprehensible to you. Much of it is proprioception, so systematic "relaxed" and slow playing through of Liszt's Technical Exercises (just to name an example) with a focus on positive movement, tactile sense etc. without rushing may work miracles in just a few weeks, provided you are not distracted by overworked schedules, forced learning of lots of repertoire, exams, competitions, etc.

Paul

[proklover]

chopin2015, don't worry, I am already well familiar with Prokofiev's Etudes (notice how my user name is proklover? lol). I just don't really like them...they were like Op. 2 or something. very very early prokofiev, right after his sonata. It would be kind of like playing Scriabin's first sonata.

And thank you so much for that principle, that I need to not rush, Paul. That is actually very important and I'll try to work on that the best that I can...(although I seem to be facing competition after competition)....I just need to focus on being the best that I can, rather than comparing myself to everyone else, or even trying to be like somebody else. Thanks for imparting that piece ofwisdom.

[tranquille]

@ proklover

You could say they are geniuses, yes. Some have it by birth; others can learn it in special schools of "Super Learning" or through Zen-like "anti-rush" practice of movement and proprioception at the piano. It has not so much to do with musical or pianistic skills.

Paul

@ Paul - Have you or anyone you know personally ever tried these "Super Learning " siklls to see whether they actually work?

[p2u_]

@ Paul - Have you or anyone you know personally ever tried these "Super Learning " siklls to see whether they actually work?

I have learned 8 languages based on that system (I can't count my native language Dutch, of course). My last language, Russian, I learned reasonably well in just 3 months without a teacher, much to the surprise of native speakers of Russian, who considered that a feat and a huge compliment to their culture.

I must admit, though, that I was already born with a phenomenal memory. Besides, even Dr. Lazarov admitted that there is a kind of placebo effect present in the method, which means that you have to believe in it to expect the results, which is also true for most of the existing piano methods, by the way. The people that teach it are 100% behind their case and love people in general, which is paramount to get the student through the process of learning.
P.S.: Even if the method itself has not been scientifically proven completely, what they describe seems to be close to the truth when we look at prodigies, etc., the ones this topic started off with. Nikolai Lugansky, for example, learned Rachmaninov 3 by heart in just... 3 days when he was 13 years old! You should keep in mind that he did that notwithstanding the standard enormous workload these kids already have during their training.

Paul

[chopin2015]

I just need to focus on being the best that I can, rather than comparing myself to everyone else, or even trying to be like somebody else. Thanks for imparting that piece ofwisdom.

Exactly. You are your own person. Do not think about what they are learning that you are not. Focus on what you are learning that benefits you and makes you feel good. If you play it well, that is all that matters. They will see it just like you saw them learn their pieces well.

[akthe47]

Nikolai Lugansky, for example, learned Rachmaninov 3 by heart in just... 3 days when he was 13 years old!

Just curious, do you have a reference for this?  I can't seem to find this anywhere.

[proklover]

a thirteen year old.....learning Rach THREE IN THREE DAYS??
/kills self/
whatever happened to not comparing myself to others.....
that's impossible. No human being can possibly learn Rach three in three days and be able to play it up to tempo.....what the hell.

wait...how do i "super learn"? @paul

[rachmaninoff_forever]

. Nikolai Lugansky, for example, learned Rachmaninov 3 by heart in just... 3 days when he was 13 years old!

Paul

I heard that he learned the Rach 3 in three days.

I'll let that slide, but I refuse to believe that he learned it in three days while at the same time being 13 years old.

[proklover]

same.

In the meanwhile, let's keep this thread going!! anyone else want to enlighten my short term memory brain?   

[tranquille]

@ Paul - sounds interesting - something I would like to do more reading on.  You mention the plecebo effect, the fact that you are an excellent memoriser and many prodigies use this method for piano.  Does this mean that a person with average memory skills wouldn't be able to learn a language in this way or an average piano player in spite of diligent practice wouldn't accomplish similar skills to the ones you referred to?

Did you go to a language that specialises in these techniques and are there piano teachers that specialise in them as well?

[p2u_]

Nikolai Lugansky, for example, learned Rachmaninov 3 by heart in just... 3 days when he was 13 years old!

Just curious, do you have a reference for this?  I can't seem to find this anywhere.

You are right; my apologies. I should have checked my sources first before stating hearsay: I heard he was 13, but he must have been 17 (he was still studying with T. Nikolayeva, who died when he was 21) and he tells this story himself in this video:

[0:46-2:18]
No translation available, but I'll just quickly give the context. When asked how much time one needs to learn big pieces by heart, Lugansky answers: depends on your age. My memory was best when I was 17-20. At that age, I set a record by learning Rachmaninov 3 by heart in three days. On the fourth day, I took it to Tatiana Nikolayeva and played it without the score. She didn't believe I had been playing it only for three days. Of course it wasn't ready for concert, yet... etc. In the end he admits, that it doesn't play such a huge role after all (whether you can learn so fast or not). It's just nice for your self-esteem...

Paul

[p2u_]

Does this mean that a person with average memory skills wouldn't be able to learn a language in this way or an average piano player in spite of diligent practice wouldn't accomplish similar skills to the ones you referred to?

No. The only thing I'm saying is: if you don't believe in it, you can be ANY age or have ANY kind of skills - it just won't work. Same with piano playing: arm school, finger school, etc.

Did you go to a language that specialises in these techniques and are there piano teachers that specialise in them as well?

No. I generally don't trust teachers very much, one exception being Gyorgy Sebok (piano), whom I had the pleasure of meeting in the Hague (Holland). Although he did not advertise himself as such, he was able to get super results out of ANY student, mainly by making them feel at ease (freeing up blocked resources in just a few minutes, where any regular piano method would take years). Master classes with him were almost like a religious experience. A real guru that was, who could have taught any subject, not just music and piano playing... Unfortunately, I never had an opportunity to study with him.  Everything I learned in life I learned myself. So sad.

The second aspect of your question: there must be such teachers, although I don't know any by name. Remember, it's not so much a method; it's an approach to learning where you free up blocked resources, mainly by SLOWING DOWN. You really don't need a teacher to do that.

Paul

[the89thkey]

Just curious, do you have a reference for this?  I can't seem to find this anywhere.

You are right; my apologies. I should have checked my sources first before stating hearsay: I heard he was 13, but he must have been 17 (he was still studying with T. Nikolayeva, who died when he was 21) and he tells this story himself in this video:

[0:46-2:18]
No translation available, but I'll just quickly give the context. When asked how much time one needs to learn big pieces by heart, Lugansky answers: depends on your age. My memory was best when I was 17-20. At that age, I set a record by learning Rachmaninov 3 by heart in three days. On the fourth day, I took it to Tatiana Nikolayeva and played it without the score. She didn't believe I had been playing it only for three days. Of course it wasn't ready for concert, yet... etc. In the end he admits, that it doesn't play such a huge role after all (whether you can learn so fast or not). It's just nice for your self-esteem...

Paul

I learned Rach 3 from memory in about a week, but it was probably a little cleaner than Lugansky's 3-day version. Anyway, he and I both have large repertoires and I like to listen to his recordings.

By the way, I learned it at around 18 years old, practicing 8 hours a day (maybe less than Lugansky.)

[ceosteos]

I learned Rach 3 from memory in about a week, but it was probably a little cleaner than Lugansky's 3-day version. Anyway, he and I both have large repertoires and I like to listen to his recordings.

By the way, I learned it at around 18 years old, practicing 8 hours a day (maybe less than Lugansky.)

Any specific methods you used? Just curious

[the89thkey]

Any specific methods you used? Just curious

I went over the passages slowly at first, then used my (not meaning to sound bigheaded) strong technique to work them up to speed rapidly. Then I just enjoyed the music and memorized the work in the last few days.