Project: Rachmaninoff’s 3rd Piano Concerto

[ajspiano]

If you have an orchestra then the money you make from the event needs to be distributed to the orchestra.

Oh right, I was assuming you meant raw ticket sales.

I don't know if I could trust one person managing the orchestra for me, I guess I am a control freak in that respect.

Albany isn't a big place.. Quite a few members of that orchestra I knew as school teachers who conducted the concert bands or ensembles I played in during highschool.. and then they became my musician colleagues when I was playing in the orchestra pit for theater shows, and as I got older they then became teaching colleagues who threw me my first ever piano students.. ...Beyond that, my parents were also school teachers, so some of them were even just family friends... I guess I have a level of trust established..

If this is the case what are you waiting for! I hope you are not doing a free concert because you should be paid plentifully for doing this type of concerto.

Gees, there's no way it'd be free..   it'll cost me an arm and a leg to do it in the first place.

The hardest part is selling the seats, if you can do that then get crackin! I know playing in the more "outback" towns can draw the entire population to you, Albany must not get that many performers and it is quite a rich town (in terms of average rent paid there) so yes I am sure people would jump at the opportunity to hear some live piano music (and rach 3 for that matter!).

The old town hall seats about 300, I think this would be an absolute piece of cake to fill..  possibly twice over...   not that thats a big concert or anything, but it would be as many as the venue could handle so whatever. There's a new hall now though since I've been there.. so I dont know what kind of capacity I'd be looking at.

The "local" vibe would be a major factor..  with orchestra you'd be looking at minimum 20 people with friends/family to drag in..  all local music students would be advised to go (beats going to perth to see that kind of thing) etc. etc.

Albany has a STRONG annual eisteddfod full of predominantly classical performances, and it sees an audience beyond just parents/family of music students so I suspect there would be plenty of just general classical music fans that would come.

To my knowledge, this kind of event has never gone unsold in Albany as a once off..  possibly a very different market, but to illustrate - I was the pianist for a local theater groups performance of "Oliver" one year.. we sold out 10 straight shows.

I could be wrong ofcourse, but thats the impression I have from growing up there..   I'm sure its a very different deal to do this kind of thing in a state capital though...   all my optimism stems purely from the home town factor, and people I personally know.

But wouldn't rach 3 be a little upperclass for most listeners? Would you want to play a collection of piano solos also?

I'm not sure to be honest though I doubt it would be too upperclass..  I would anticipate doing a "selection of solos/intermission/concerto" type thing. Unless the orchestra wanted to make more of it and we ended up with "symphony/intermission/concerto" or something.

I'm always up for concerting . I'd certainly be happy to play 2nd piano, we could do some other duets together also Let me know how serious your project is and we can get the ball rollin

I'd love to say 'lets do it' - but I just can't guarentee that i'll be ready by any rough date.. my practice at the moment is just too inconsistent to be able to be sure of anything much..  I'm not a full time pianist at the moment (I spend a reasonable amount of time in my fiance's business) and we are getting married in May. I'll know better where I stand after that..

I would definitely want to do it in the future though...  am open to discussions on repertoire.

[chopin2015]

Take your time, dont pull a lisitsa. I think her debut was not that great with the 3rd concerto. Meanwhile, congrats on the wedding date!

[ajspiano]

Take your time, dont pull a lisitsa. I think her debut was not that great with the 3rd concerto. Meanwhile, congrats on the wedding date!

Don't worry, I plan to take the required time - on the other hand.. if I played it as well as her that'd be a good effort don't you think?

[chopin2015]

Don't worry, I plan to take the required time - on the other hand.. if I played it as well as her that'd be a good effort don't you think?

It had it's moments...shes a fine musician and i suppose she is human. You can do it too, though. How many bars of piano part is there in this concerto?

[ajspiano]

It had it's moments...shes a fine musician and i suppose she is human. You can do it too, though. How many bars of piano part is there in this concerto?

She spends 12 hours a day playing piano.. and has done for atleast 15 years more than me. I'm lucky to make it to 2 hours a day, and I miss days at the moment...

on the bars, a very rough estimate of 500 per movement.. I did number the bars but I dont have a score with me and I tend to think of it in sections not bars.

[chopin2015]

She spends about 6 to 8 every day when preparing a performance. Inbetween i think she does little to none. If its less than 5 days without physically playing piano, it is scientifically proven you can practice and prepare mentally quite effectively...making physical practice even more effective. So 8 hours with much experience and preparation or 2 with whatever youre working with plus your etude its the same, is all i mean. Time doesnt mean anything if you have your reasons and expectations and social duties....

[ajspiano]

I reached a 10th today! I have pictures! I did it comfortably without stretching.

I shat a brick when I first tried this bar..  its alright now though

[chopin2015]

I shat a brick when I first tried this bar..  its alright now though

If i wasnt so wine-tastic right now, id try it. Ya, all rachmaninoff is either disturbing or scary or both. Whats with the 1900s first edition font?

[jogoeshome]

I shat a brick when I first tried this bar..  its alright now though

Glad I will never be able to do that cause I have really small hands, so I wont even try. My piano teacher however, would just have deleted a couple of useless notes just to fit my hands. She did that a lot so that I could play interesting pieces. I can do a 9th, but not with extra notes in between.

[jogoeshome]

If i wasnt so wine-tastic right now, id try it. Ya, all rachmaninoff is either disturbing or scary or both. Whats with the 1900s first edition font?

The problem is that its both technically and melodically challenging, that's why I think russians play it better.

[chopin2015]

I heard Rach was an alcoholic for some time. You know people drink moonshine over there? Its a wonder they can do anything at all...im just kidding.

[lostinidlewonder]

I shat a brick when I first tried this bar..  its alright now though

I'd first leave out the semiquavers then add them. I find simplification often makes scary things easier to approach.

[ajspiano]

I'd first leave out the semiquavers then add them. I find simplification often makes scary things easier to approach.

Yeh, thats a good idea, its just the 2nd beat that poses the problem.

................

So the last week or so I've been ignoring this one bar because I had one of those "thats impossible" reactions to the way the slurs are placed.. and then I've sat about twiddling my thumbs debating whether or not to bother to learn to play the 2 RH voices with a physical legato fingering..

So here's what I nutted out for it just now, funnily enough I think this is actually easier than letting the lower voice be non-legato, with 11111 fingering or something. I'm yet to decide whether this will work at the required tempo.



I'm probably happy with this, but open to suggestion.. I may make that first 4,5 a 3,4.. works better coming out of the previous phrase. The key signature is fro D minor at the moment, if that makes any difference..  there's the 1 Bb there.

[ajspiano]

no one?

Ok, anyway I changed my mind - majority of the 34's became 45's and its more comfortable..  but only since something technical fell into place yesterday creating a difference of about 20bpm in chopin 10/2. Big win. That prick of an etude is just about feeling good now. Looking forward to getting back on it and nailing it over the next little while.

Thanks Paul - it was one of your comments that made the difference.

[chopin2015]

Im werkin on my own concerto, but if I get bored, ill look at your fingerings...

[j_menz]

Some interesting observations to be found here:

https://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/stephenhough/100067860/most-of-the-strokes-winners-none-of-them-good-enough/

Specifically about the Rach 3, but could be equally read as applying to anything.

[chopin2015]

Im reading the comments

[ajspiano]

Some interesting observations to be found here:

https://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/stephenhough/100067860/most-of-the-strokes-winners-none-of-them-good-enough/

Specifically about the Rach 3, but could be equally read as applying to anything.

It is certainly how I see it. If I were roger it would be a case of "yes media person, I can beat nadal every single time with my forehand - its beside the point - I only hit the intersection of the side and base lines 1 in 15 times."

[chopin2015]

Man, idk. That concerto is dense! I dont play any rachmaninoff. Liszt snapped my sustain pedal spring and knocked out a couple of hammers all in 1 week. I havent even played at full tempo yet...true story!

I want to hear what happens to you and your piano after you play that concerto.....

[ajspiano]

Man, idk. That concerto is dense!

It's the hardest piece in the world, you know?

..

so I suspect I'll have a falling out with my father, move to london, and ultimately give up playing altogether.

[chopin2015]

Yeh i guess...if its over 100 pages of scary i probably do not have the attention span yet. Have u played beethoven's 5th concerto?

[ajspiano]

Yeh i guess...if its over 100 pages of scary i probably do not have the attention span yet. Have u played beethoven's 5th concerto?

I was just quoting shine..

no, I havent played the beethoven.. well you know, certainly not properly.

[j_menz]

I havent played the beethoven.. well you know, certainly not properly.

That, sadly, hasn't stopped some people recording it.

And if you're going to do the whole Shine thing, aren't you leaving the breakdown a bit late?

[chopin2015]

Oh, i havent watched that yet!

So you've looked at it? What do you think?

[chopin2015]

Proper recordings are subjective...
But i still refuse to record anything else for a while even though my last recording wasnt great so i didnt really complete that piece..so what. I break pianos.

[chopin2015]

Also, have u looked at the adagio? Forgive me if u already talked about it, but you might find it easier to tackle and easiest to express...it helps tie the whole concerto together, i think....if you keep the adagio in mind more. I dont know anything about concertos, but it certainly helped me to look at the middle first.

[ajspiano]

That, sadly, hasn't stopped some people recording it.

May not stop me with the rachmaninoff either   

And if you're going to do the whole Shine thing, aren't you leaving the breakdown a bit late?

I guess, but I was about 8 years too late on the heroic polonaise as well so there is at least some consistency.

So you've looked at it? What do you think?

I think that that is a fairly open ended question and I'm not really sure what kind of answer you're looking for. Are you saying do I like it as a piece of music? if so, then yes.. but there is very little music I dislike these days, excluding radio pop.

If you're asking whether I think its difficult.. then yeah.. its a concerto.. I'm not sure there are easy ones? But then I have respect for the challenges found in beginner repertoire and strongly dislike rating difficulties objectively..

..I'm also definitely NOT an experienced enough musician/teacher to be offering quality advice on repertoire that is so advanced without having personally studied it significantly. Hell, i think people should take ALL teachers advice with a grain of salt even when discussing simple repertoire anyway.

[chopin2015]

I miss Rubinsrein

[ajspiano]

I miss Rubinsrein

any one in particularly or is it a generalisation.. ?

[ajspiano]

Oh, i havent watched that yet!

The flight of the bumblebee scene inspired me for years when I was little. I always wanted to do that in some bar somewhere..  minus the cigarette..  ..and minus the mental instability.

[chopin2015]

any one in particularly or is it a generalisation.. ?

Lol type-oh

I definitely have to watch it soon. Great I found something I can do when I am not playing piano or homework...well see when that happens! Maybe by next week...

But i just read some stuff and it made me think about how lazy I am and how much i should appreciate every moment at the piano..i should be done with all chopin ballades by now...you know? You should play through first movement soon. You can do it. Play it with tempos that help you get through each bar....

Good night people. Idk how im supposed to record anything when i just break everything...

[ajspiano]

I figured it was a typo, i was asking which Rubinstein - theres a few of them you know.

Playing through the first mov fluently is still a bit of a novel idea..  i just don't practice enough, and i have another project going now. I'm sure ill post another video soon though.

[ajspiano]

So this is a really short one, the opening of the ossia cadenza (just 8 bars) - with a couple of bung notes.

I'm posting this because it keeps me moving and its nice to be able to look back on these things and see tangible progress.. (this is no where near ready)

I can play further than this but I don't think you guys really need to see (or would care about) a fairly mechanical performance of something that should be so dramatic.

I find this section manageable (now at least, it didn't go HT in 5 minutes or anything), yet REALLY difficult to play the way I truly intend (like many sections). I haven't touched it for quite a few weeks and pulled out just this little bit last night to try and make it into something more aurally palatable. I probably made it about 15% of the way to where I'd like it to be. The LH melodic line presents the biggest problem, but its certainly not the only thing that needs work.

[chopin2015]

I figured it was a typo, i was asking which Rubinstein - theres a few of them you know.

Playing through the first mov fluently is still a bit of a novel idea..  i just don't practice enough, and i have another project going now. I'm sure ill post another video soon though.

No, not fluently, in any shape or form so u dont have to spend time later adding mental notes on which melody is where, and youll have an idea of where you are in terms of how well you know the melody...its fun.

[chopin2015]

So this is a really short one, the opening of the ossia cadenza (just 8 bars) - with a couple of bung notes.

I'm posting this because it keeps me moving and its nice to be able to look back on these things and see tangible progress.. (this is no where near ready)

I can play further than this but I don't think you guys really need to see (or would care about) a fairly mechanical performance of something that should be so dramatic.

I find this section manageable (now at least, it didn't go HT in 5 minutes or anything), yet REALLY difficult to play the way I truly intend (like many sections). I haven't touched it for quite a few weeks and pulled out just this little bit last night to try and make it into something more aurally palatable. I probably made it about 15% of the way to where I'd like it to be. The LH melodic line presents the biggest problem, but its certainly not the only thing that needs work.

Nice! Clean up the bass

[ajspiano]

No, not fluently, in any shape or form so u dont have to spend time later adding mental notes on which melody is where, and youll have an idea of where you are in terms of how well you know the melody...its fun.

Oh right, well.. I know it backwards in that regard..  I did before I started. I've listened to this concerto more than a lot of times over a period of about 15 years. Obviously I have to connect physical movements to the melodies though..  but I have a totally memorized sound image of the entire first movement and much of the other 2..

Playing it is a different story..  I can probably get through it, but there'd be quite a myriad of practice tempos, and probably a self inflicted headache in a few spots I still haven't devoted much time to at all.

Clean up the bass

Lol. Yeah. :/   ..I'm not blaming my tools because you're right, it is mostly my poor execution.. but the piano is a touch out of tune now, and its not helping with making it sound clean and crisp.. It can get really muddy really quickly.

[chopin2015]

Oh right, well.. I know it backwards in that regard..  I did before I started. I've listened to this concerto more than a lot of times over a period of about 15 years. Obviously I have to connect physical movements to the melodies though..  but I have a totally memorized sound image of the entire first movement and much of the other 2..

Playing it is a different story..  I can probably get through it, but there'd be quite a myriad of practice tempos, and probably a self inflicted headache in a few spots I still haven't devoted much time to at all.
Lol. Yeah. :/   ..I'm not blaming my tools because you're right, it is mostly my poor execution.. but the piano is a touch out of tune now, and its not helping with making it sound clean and crisp.. It can get really muddy really quickly.

Have u tried playing the middle movement?
But ya, thats great that you know all the melodies, thats a big part of it....


And your execution is good(its awesome, really), but when playing with orchestra u will have to play really clean and annunciate each note and pedaling on an upright is different than on a grand.

[chopin2015]

1 more thing. Youre gonna have to soon set aside atleast one 6 hour block of time without major breaks and just read/work through 1 whole movement. 2 hours is a glimpse of time on projects like these. Im just stating observations. Your concerto is really packed with notes....its like learning the middle section of ballade no 1 except crazier and funkier.

[ajspiano]

Hahah 6 hours uninterrupted..  ill just book that in some time in june..  i did say at the start that i wasnt expecting to finish this any time soon.

[chopin2015]

I know, but youll have to read through it eventually.

[lostinidlewonder]

Opening of the cadenza looks comfortable in your hands.

[chopin2015]

DONT YOU JUST LOVE THOSE BIG, FAT CHORDS?>>!!

[ajspiano]

DONT YOU JUST LOVE THOSE BIG, FAT CHORDS?>>!!

haha yeh of course..  i take it you watched at leadt some of shine then?

Opening of the cadenza looks comfortable in your hands.

Thats a positive, there are some later parts that are still a bit much... Havent done much with the "big fat chord" section yet..

[chopin2015]

yes, just watched it, its evenin' time here.

Dude that is one powerful piece of music. You better break a string. Then faint. You better run around naked in the rain and smoke a cigar with Rachmaninoff written on it. Or you will insult my Russian pride and Rach will turn over in his grave

thats kinda what Chopin does when I play...haha

[ajspiano]

Cigars aren't really my thing, but i'd be happy to drink a few russian made vodkas.

[chopin2015]

According to my experience, you mean moonshine? Lol

It might help unwind...if rach didnt unwind....it just wouldnt be the same, drunken master....

[ajspiano]

As far as i understand it - "moonshine" can have enormously varied alcohol volume from batch to batch... Its plausible that a half shot would be enough to reduce my tone control and accuracy so significantly that i appear to play an entirely different piece...

[lostinidlewonder]

The 3rd movement is probably the hardest of all the movements in Rach 3. Overall the Rach 3 is not as rhythmically challenging as some of his works. Personally I believe that his Sonata no 2 first edition is much more challenging.

Are you learning large chunks of this Rach 3 at a time aj? I think it is important not to approach this too segmented or you may take much longer to learn it. Don't be afraid

[chopin2015]

As far as i understand it - "moonshine" can have enormously varied alcohol volume from batch to batch... Its plausible that a half shot would be enough to reduce my tone control and accuracy so significantly that i appear to play an entirely different piece...

Never drink and play, its dangerous

[ajspiano]

The 3rd movement is probably the hardest of all the movements in Rach 3. Overall the Rach 3 is not as rhythmically challenging as some of his works. Personally I believe that his Sonata no 2 first edition is much more challenging.

I'll reserve any real comment without looking at the score for the sonata. You're probably right about the 3rd movement. Its funny though, coming from where I am (meaning probably not really ready for this). I haven't worked at all on the 2nd and 3rd movements yet, just read through patches, but the 1st movement has got some pretty tough spots anyway and I think that I'm going to have a slightly skewed perspective on the later two because of the significant technical improvements I've already gained from working on the first.

Are you learning large chunks of this Rach 3 at a time aj? I think it is important not to approach this too segmented or you may take much longer to learn it. Don't be afraid

"don't be afraid" LOL...  yes and no. I have it broken into musical subsections that are of a decent size - though not huge, the composition is quite fragmented in that its constantly changing theme (or how a theme is arranged) and my sections are based on these extended musical 'paragraphs'. When I tackle a new part I start off by basically ripping through separately, doing preliminary analysis of where I'm most likely to get genuinely held up, I also do a slow HT after that and at the same time memorise visually the hands/keyboard..  just so that its all in my head.

After that I usually (there are actually a few places that don't warrant this) go back and start working on everything in immense detail in very small fragments - sometimes as small as a couple of notes or a beat, there are a few places where the HT coordination of physical technique really does my head in. They come together relatively quickly (at least as far as getting my hands through the notes, musically they have to settle in over time i feel) but I do have to really break them up..

Example:
Getting the below part to tempo was a pain, I've been working on it over this weekend and its nearly there.. I certainly couldnt have done anything much bigger than this or I'd have been at it for far to much time per repetition in the initial stages..  This had to be broken into minums then semibreves (roughly) before I was then able to play the whole thing.


I think if I had more practice time in general it'd be a bit different, such as that I could push myself to go onto more new material and be working on more sections each session. Plus I have to work on things besides this or it does my head in a little (things that I can get together quickly and easily) - not enough concerto practice time = limited rate of progress = frustration.

Yesterday I got a bit annoyed that I couldnt do a particular part and ended up saying "screw it. I'm learning a WTC fugue" ...you know somethings hard when it seems normal to learn a fugue as  a way to get a break mentally.