Project: Rachmaninoff’s 3rd Piano Concerto

[chopin2015]

So every part you learn, you practice it with the orchestra track? Im learning a concerto too...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Never drink and play, its dangerous

With the exception of this.



Hey yo, ajs, try some of this.  It's done wonders for me when playing Rachmaninoff!

[ajspiano]

So every part you learn, you practice it with the orchestra track? Im learning a concerto too...

Not necessarily..

Most of it yeh, but there's a quite a few places where its really difficult to play with a recording - where in reality the orchestras tempo/timing rubato etc. will be dependent on the pianist not the other way around.

Case in point, that section I posted above is solo, there's no orchestra there. But, the orchestra comes in directly after it..  I swear it is near impossible to maintain the right tempo to fit to the recording there. For a couple of bars its manageable but there its practically impossible to get it right and finish at the right time.

Same thing for one of the earlier sections I posted (video), the piano plays by it self for a 4 bars, and there's a rit. - then the orchestra comes back in on the offbeat of the next bar. It is so hard to get this right.. you have to play like clockwork and you lose any slight interpretive variation from one run to the next. :/

Same thing with the cadenza. I'd challenge any top pianist to successfully time the cadenza to so many minutes and seconds before aligning perfectly for the middle section of the cadenza. These things require human adjustment on the part of the orchestra.

....

That said, I definitely work with the orchestra part always. You need to have it playing in your head - know it as well as you do the piano part. There are parts where the piano is going totally mad but its aurally receded.. the melody is in the orchestra and the piano is just drowning in sound...  in these parts you really are just a "part" of the overall music, not a soloist. You have to know how you fit in...  You also (if you're cool enough to be able to boss around the orchestra in the end) need to know the accompaniment well enough to be able to direct the conductor/orchestra as far as how you want them to play, since chances are they won't be able to read your mind and you aren't going to get to rehearse with them for months..

Unless you're playing with a world class orchestra they aren't going to just accommodate your interpretation at the drop of a hat and without instruction.

[ajspiano]

Hey yo, ajs, try some of this.  It's done wonders for me when playing Rachmaninoff!

Looks good, can't say i've ever seen it here in australia though. Will have to make a special order.

[ajspiano]

@chopin2015

On the same topic, I also have copies of the orchestra track at several different tempos for practice purposes.

I've been meaning to make a CD with the different sections broken up into individual tracks but I havent got around to it.

[chopin2015]

Not necessarily..

Most of it yeh, but there's a quite a few places where its really difficult to play with a recording - where in reality the orchestras tempo/timing rubato etc. will be dependent on the pianist not the other way around.

Case in point, that section I posted above is solo, there's no orchestra there. But, the orchestra comes in directly after it..  I swear it is near impossible to maintain the right tempo to fit to the recording there. For a couple of bars its manageable but there its practically impossible to get it right and finish at the right time.

Same thing for one of the earlier sections I posted (video), the piano plays by it self for a 4 bars, and there's a rit. - then the orchestra comes back in on the offbeat of the next bar. It is so hard to get this right.. you have to play like clockwork and you lose any slight interpretive variation from one run to the next. :/

Same thing with the cadenza. I'd challenge any top pianist to successfully time the cadenza to so many minutes and seconds before aligning perfectly for the middle section of the cadenza. These things require human adjustment on the part of the orchestra.

....

That said, I definitely work with the orchestra part always. You need to have it playing in your head - know it as well as you do the piano part. There are parts where the piano is going totally mad but its aurally receded.. the melody is in the orchestra and the piano is just drowning in sound...  in these parts you really are just a "part" of the overall music, not a soloist. You have to know how you fit in...  You also (if you're cool enough to be able to boss around the orchestra in the end) need to know the accompaniment well enough to be able to direct the conductor/orchestra as far as how you want them to play, since chances are they won't be able to read your mind and you aren't going to get to rehearse with them for months..

Unless you're playing with a world class orchestra they aren't going to just accommodate your interpretation at the drop of a hat and without instruction.

I see! All great points. I havent learnt the orchestra part. Im halfway through the first movement though, in terms of reading through and getting polyrhythms down. Not too much memorizing. I bet u cant read through your concerto as much cause ITS FREAKING CRAZY IDK WHAT KINDA NUT YOU MUST BE, YOURE GONNA poop your pants the last 50 bars of that concerto...lol. good job though. Take it from a mentally ill person, im very amused and inspired in a good, artistic way. 

[ajspiano]

I see! All great points. I havent learnt the orchestra part. Im halfway through the first movement though, in terms of reading through and getting polyrhythms down. Not too much memorizing. I bet u cant read through your concerto as much cause ITS FREAKING CRAZY IDK WHAT KINDA NUT YOU MUST BE, YOURE GONNA poop your pants the last 50 bars of that concerto...lol. good job though. Take it from a mentally ill person, im very amused and inspired in a good, artistic way. 

Think of it as being similar to learning something contrapuntal.. where ideally you should be able to process all the voices mentally, and simultaneously. Its just in this case there's a part(s) you don't play, you only think it.

Yeh, can't really read through HT for the majority..that's an ideal way to get a headache. I don't know what kind of magician would be able to sight read at that level. Its a bit of a trick really - you don't get to develop the technique that would be required to read through it without first slogging through it in smaller chunks..   unless your an unparalleled genius...  I'm not.

ITS FREAKING CRAZY IDK WHAT KINDA NUT YOU MUST BE, YOURE GONNA poop your pants the last 50 bars

LOL - Its possible to have a respect for the difficulty of something without being afraid of the enormity of the challenge. Things are only as hard as you make them for yourself - its easier to think of everything as being easy, but with varying time-frames for learning. In reality there's a pretty basic set of "how to"s for learning piano - things get difficult when you stop thinking and lose patience with it. If you follow the steps properly everything is easy, its just that some things take a lot longer than others, and it can be harder to identify what it is you need to do to learn it effectively.

[chopin2015]

Haha, im sure there are sone sight readable sections in there somewhere *gets nosebleed from too much sarcasm*


 I used to think something was difficult and take some time to develop the confidence to approach it. It works for me. I do some field tests and mess around with chopin etudes...then look at his berceuse while having a guiness.

 Dude, you crazy!

[ajspiano]

Haha, im sure there are sone sight readable sections in there somewhere *gets nosebleed from too much sarcasm*


 I used to think something was difficult and take some time to develop the confidence to approach it. It works for me. I do some field tests and mess around with chopin etudes...then look at his berceuse while having a guiness.

 Dude, you crazy!

The 2 reprises of the opening theme in mov 1 aren't too bad.

I still have heaps of gaps in the Chopin Etudes as far as being able to perform them well - i'm making no claim to be able to perform more than a few at what i'd consider a decent level - that said, when approaching them initially I did pretty much just the opening themes (4 to 16 bars generally) of almost all of them, and got that much done pretty well..

As a result I can impress partially educated people because I can make like I can play the entire set by doing a rough medley of all the openings (Lol - serious pianists wouldn't be fooled)

I honestly have no idea what you're playing is like, so perhaps that would take you a long time to do, - but then again maybe not.. and you get a decent across the board technical boost..  and it reduces the perceived enormity of the idea that you may be able to play quite a number of them in the future.

...

remembering that I had to tackle them without a teacher (not something I advise in hindsight but I didnt have an option)..   this meant I had to figure out a lot of things as far as which ones were harder and where I should start on my own, and a phenomenal amount about technical flaws I had (and of course some I still have and continue to work on)..  it was a valuable approach for me personally.

[chopin2015]

I gave up etudes i have gaps in. I can only record when home alone, i will try to record winter wind tomorrow. Actually have a recording of today if youd like to see it....i can play fast but if its too fast...it scares me. Like in shine, where theres no sound and then the end and the sweat and panic attack and bam!  Lol

 I honestly only play op 25 no 11 and no 12. 

 Also....its true it is really hard to correct technical flaws, i love my teacher soooo much! She catches them all, shes helped me alot in 6 months. I dont learn things wrong anymore. But she doesnt know i tried ondine and now a concerto.

[ajspiano]

the last 50 bars of that concerto

By the way, Chopin2015, while the last 50 bars have their challenges..  check out the ossia (the top line here, the bottom is the normal piano part) for this single bar earlier in the movement..



...as if the bottom version isn't difficult enough.

[chopin2015]

I think u can just use 1 and 5 on the large intervals and 2 and 3 on the 2nds and 3rds. Ill go look at it...

[chopin2015]

Nah it looks wierd...i started with. 1/3 2/4 1/5 2/3 1/5 2/3 1/5 2/3....uuck., what a mean bar....haha

[ajspiano]

I think u can just use 1 and 5 on the large intervals and 2 and 3 on the 2nds and 3rds. Ill go look at it...

..its also not so much the fingering.. its the pace at which you have to do it... and light pp.

..not that I've tried yet. I don't need to to know that if I do the ossia here it is going to take HOURS over DAYS over MONTHS. - for one bar.

[chopin2015]

The pp helps and play it legato only emphasizing some beats, not every single note really....check this stuff out! Thats what im gonna be playing for the neighbors tomorrow...

[ajspiano]

The pp helps and play it legato only emphasizing some beats, not every single note really....

Yes it would certainly be easier pp than ff i think I more meant consistency of touch.. you know, its so rapid and would require such precise motion that its probably quite easy to miss notes.

check this stuff out! Thats what im gonna be playing for the neighbors tomorrow...

Neighbours hey? are they coming for dinner or something? or do you just mean they have to put up with you practicing it

[chopin2015]

Yes it would certainly be easier pp than ff i think I more meant consistency of touch.. you know, its so rapid and would require such precise motion that its probably quite easy to miss notes.

Yeah, itll speed up on its own after some time.

Neighbours hey? are they coming for dinner or something? or do you just mean they have to put up with you practicing it

Yeah, itll speed up on its own after some time! Just so long as you have some decent idea of whats supposed to come out...  reminds me of this one bar here...u should check this one it doesnt alternate fingerings as much...its just locrean mode methinks...see attachment

And yeh my neighbors hear me practice...all da time! Sweet sound of winter wind at 6 30 am on a saturday the day of my audition....lollololol muahaha

[j_menz]

Neighbours hey? are they coming for dinner or something?

LOL.

Much as I love the Emperor, I dare not think of the sort of "neighbours over for dinner" night for which it would be suitable.

[chopin2015]

LOL.

Much as I love the Emperor, I dare not think of the sort of "neighbours over for dinner" night for which it would be suitable.

HAHAHAH!! Good one! What about the rach 3...audience of masochist piano nrrdds ^_^

[ajspiano]

..its just locrean mode methinks...

Diminished scale..   (if I'm looking at the right bar) - in the lower voice(s) it is, and notice how the top voice is a diminished arp.

[ajspiano]

LOL.

Much as I love the Emperor, I dare not think of the sort of "neighbours over for dinner" night for which it would be suitable.

I've been asked to play enough rubbish in such situations that I'd be prepared to subject guests to something suitably lengthy and inappropriate purely for my own entertainment.

[chopin2015]

I've been asked to play enough rubbish in such situations that I'm prepared to subject guests to something suitably lengthy and inappropriate purely for my own entertainment.

Haha, completely inappropriate. But what about the left hand? I think its locrean. The left hand.

[ajspiano]

But what about the left hand? I think its locrean. The left hand.

No its diminished. I double checked it again just now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octatonic_scale

[chopin2015]

I just checked too...youre right....i cant find locrian scale anywhere. U sure its not ultra locrian or anything like that?

[chopin2015]

Scratch all that im a freakin idiot

[ajspiano]

I just checked too...youre right....i cant find locrian scale anywhere. U sure its not ultra locrian or anything like that?

Scratch all that im a freakin idiot

LOL.

[chopin2015]

 

[ajspiano]

More embarrassing things have happened.

One time at a recital I played my entire piece an octave too high..  I realised this was happening about halfway through. Its was reported to me later that I had a strange/confused look on my face after that point.

[chopin2015]

Haha! Thats ok though, i usually argue really hard about theory but am most often at least a little wrong. Lol
 Playing an octave higher is avant garde...tell them the piano was wrong. Yo i just bought all rach concertos for 12 dollars...its the biggest sheet music book i have at 400 pages. i want to learn the first one some day, when i know what a diminished scale is 

[ajspiano]

Haha! Thats ok though, i usually argue really hard about theory but am most often at least a little wrong.

You probably need to look at the context.

There's a C major chord/arp directly before that line, its made a C7 harmony by the Bb at the start of that bar..  then there all the key harmonic points as it rises (each note of the upper voice) form inversions of the diminished chord..

E G Db
G Bb E
Db E Bb
etc.

If you consider this as sitting on top of a "C" root its like a C7b9 that just keeps getting extended/inverted with each new voicing up the piano.

The notes between those inversions could be considered either part of diminished scale, or as chromatic steps to the next chord (half step below chord, chord, half step below chord, chord etc.).

If you know much of your jazz theory at all, you may also know that flat 9s occur on the phyrgian and locrian modes...  but also that those modes have minor 3rds as chord tones. Our pattern keeps slamming the E natural (major 3rd above C) which is one of the reason this can't be locrian, it doesn't at all fit into major scale harmony. The only way it could fit it (and without considering factors) if the E was a chromatic passing tone.

You would also get the indication to look for chromatic passing tones (if you think its not diminished) to identify the harmony because its a consistent pattern that has 8 notes within the octave - obviously all major modes have 7..

/end theory rant.

Ofcourse, theory is just theory in the end anyway.. so who really cares.

[chopin2015]

Dude, that was awesome! If you ever need anyone to tell someone how awesome you are(at music) i'll be the dude.  I havent studied up on theory in a while...it probably would make me a better pianist but I feel a major block towards it when I try to learn. Ill memorize stuff people tell me and but i hardly see reference to it when reading music beyond analyzing structure of major minor sounds and intervals, repetition after an octave, and patterns. I dont have as much terminology, i guess.
Thanks! Ill let u know when i have a recording up soon.  Edit :it wont be today because im not seeing improvement from yesterday yet. But its going to take another couple of days to weeks to get it right...:?

[ajspiano]

Dude, that was awesome! If you ever need anyone to tell someone how awesome you are(at music) i'll be the dude.

You can write me a reference to send to the london philharmonic if I manage to defeat the challenges of the concerto to an appropriately high standard.

.............

Work in progress on the section of score posted earlier - this is just like 2-3 bars that have given me a headache for a good few hours to get it together and fast(ish). Still, I like a section that makes me think and it highlighted a certain lack of finger articulation in my technique that I can now work to resolve and am seeing benifits elsewhere.

This isn't at tempo - and basically sucks, but I'm going to repost this section again soon - hopefully to show a decent improvement and to add the rest of this small section to it, where the hands come back together and the polyrhythmic bit - which I currently tend to screw up at this tempo (or anything higher ofcourse).

Beginning 2:14 - roughly how I'm going to play it next post.    ...

[chopin2015]

You can write me a reference to send to the london philharmonic if I manage to defeat the challenges of the concerto to an appropriately high standard.

.............

Work in progress on the section of score posted earlier - this is just like 2-3 bars that have given me a headache for a good few hours to get it together and fast(ish). Still, I like a section that makes me think and it highlighted a certain lack of finger articulation in my technique that I can now work to resolve and am seeing benifits elsewhere.

This isn't at tempo - and basically sucks, but I'm going to repost this section again soon - hopefully to show a decent improvement and to add the rest of this small section to it, where the hands come back together and the polyrhythmic bit - which I currently tend to screw up at this tempo (or anything higher ofcourse).

Beginning 2:14 - roughly how I'm going to play it next post.    ...

Dealy!

Hey man! That was pretty nice! The treble sounds good.

My concerto is not as fancy...:I

[ajspiano]

My concerto is not as fancy...:I

I really like this section musically - but I can't help thinking that the compositional direction was just.. 

hmm.. what the hell should I do now to transition into my next idea..  !! ah ha! I'll use my oversized monster hands to do insane wide arpeggios all over the piano.. yeh, but also I'll use minor 9ths and 6ths too.. so I get that harmonic minor sound that makes people think you know what you're doing.. bi*ches love phrygian dominant virtuoso note spatterings"

..not really, its a pretty freaking passionate few bars.

Edit:
In other news, I'm pretty close to being able to connect a lot of the dots now.. and actually play like the first 5 mins of the movement straight through at a proper tempo... ..it'll be nice to have some continuity and be able to post something that's more worth listening to.

[chopin2015]

I really like this section musically - but I can't help thinking that the compositional direction was just.. 

..not really, its a pretty freaking passionate few bars.

Dude, phrygian mode is tits.

Bach would get a nosebleed from this!

[ajspiano]

Bach would get a nosebleed from this!

Bach Cantata - written in phrygian. Bach owns modes.
https://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/a/a8/IMSLP01231-BWV0076.pdf

..Bach would get a nose bleed though, just not from the tonality.

[chopin2015]

Ok....lol
I'm not too familiar with a ton of Bach or Rach...and not a fan of whole works based on one tonality....nor can I play any fancy Rach.

Good luck on piecing the parts together and such.

[ajspiano]

not a fan of whole works based on one tonality....

not even if its dorian?

[chopin2015]

Hmmmm.....

Cant think modes when its felling strange

Sooo....you having any problems with rach music? Are there any rediculous intervals? Like 12ths and such that you wish you didnt have to roll?

[ajspiano]

Sooo....you having any problems with rach music? Are there any rediculous intervals? Like 12ths and such that you wish you didnt have to roll?

No big chords that annoy me yet in this. I think generally you can interpret it to make rolling them work great.

The cadenza has some LH parts that are just balls though. I have fingerings where 5 to 4 are spanning a 6th.. Not that its impossible because the context makes its quite manageable really.. But when you first look at it its a bit like "come on rach, man, as if.." its obvious that its written by someone with large hands.

There are patches where i think i can see his intention because of the shape of the phrase and what i think his fingering would have been and its pretty much just not possible for me.. And to generate the same sound with an alternate fingering requires a much better technique..  than if you could just have a monster hand..  not that im doubting rach, i'm sure he couldve done it either way and been fine. Bastard.

[chopin2015]

If you had a bigger hand you could place your hand around more notes and not have to blind jump....i get that. My left hand has to do things it doesnt like all the time!  Haha....yeah if you listen and play your left hand by ear youll get it done. I wish i had giant hands too. Not too giant though.

[ajspiano]

If you had a bigger hand you could place your hand around more notes and not have to blind jump....i get that. My left hand has to do things it doesnt like all the time!  Haha....yeah if you listen and play your left hand by ear youll get it done. I wish i had giant hands too. Not too giant though.

Its not about being blind..  or jumps (maybe kind of jumps).. 

To provide an example, which is a little contrasted against rachmaninoff...

Supposed you are to play a single figure from chopin etude 10/1 - perhaps one of the slightly tougher ones.. CFCF or something (bar 11). The fingering here (for me) is ||: 1245 :|| which creates a musical shape over the CFCF that spans up an octave. If you fingered it ||: 2415 :|| (yes I know thats really unlikely) it would be REALLY difficult to generate a smooth flow in the right way, because of the wide thumb pass in the middle of the figure. Physical legato would now be totally dependent on pedal technique and you also wouldnt have a physical connection to the piano which means that you're going to have to "land" on the thumb with nothing less than an absolutely immaculate touch to avoid an unintended accent on the thumb.

In the concerto, there are places that someone with hands the size of rach would probably have used fingers like that, just 12345 type things (single hand position over a wide interval I mean).. and as a result had an easier time controlling the shape of the phrase..  you can kind of see it in the way its written (compositional idea/intention)..  By that I mean ideas that are drawn out of your physical capability. You compose what you can play comfortably.

Look at this bar


See how the middle line is almost chromatic? so if you over do the pedal you get BLURGSGHELKJHD. So what about the minums in the RH, the A and F? they have a tenuto. So either you have to pedal the legato, or you actually hold it, and either way is total balls for trying to play the middle line..  either the sound is BLURGSGHELKJHD (too much pedal) or you hold it and you hand is contorted like its been through a meat grinder - I can play it totally physically legato which one flowing hand position (freakin slowly) if you place 4 on the E melody note, 3 on the C - last not of the bar - and 1/2 on the C,A on the first beat of the next bar. The reason I play it slowly is not because I can't get through it faster, its because the movement is VERY precise to avoid injury (the stretch is very extreme for me) so it needs to be very well rehearsed before I just let rip there.

Alternatively, I do it by placing 5 on the E, 4 on the C, and 1/3 on the C/A - which is a hand position shift which disrupts the use of a single flowing shape, and now I MUST use a pedal legato to generate the same effect, which has to be fairly precise to avoid the BLURGSGHELKJHD coming out of the middle line... its a different challenge..  It's a bit of a battle to balance a respectable amount of pedal to keep the feel of legato melody lines while using a super delicate touch in the middle voice to not end up with all the chromatic dissonant resonances overpowering everything else.

SO you know, whatever.. its not that the bar is anything special, its just one of many challenges, but rach hands would definitely have done this easier i think..  I mean, rach would've been precise about it, but hands that size could get away with less precision I think and still navigate the notes...  or perhaps use a technique that I personally consider easier to execute that what I will probably have to do to get it to sound how I want it to.

..

Ultimately I doubt I'll do it physically legato, my point is not that it should be.. just that rach probably could have done it that way if he'd wanted to, without nearly the trouble it would cause anyone with small hands.

Edit:
Maybe thats what you meant by "blind jump" anyway, i'm not really sure - i guess I mean that its not about hitting the right notes, the size of my hand isnt a concern as far as getting to the right key accurately, its level of touch control required when you get there..

Also, started mov 3 last night. Hardcore.
began here.. and beyond...  seriously one of the most exciting passages in the entire repertoire for me. Gives me goosebumps consistently this bit.

[chopin2015]

That's why I asked....many people cant play all the notes like rach with his big hands. I think when people say this about the 2nd concerto, its pretty difficult there, people tend to sound loud and heavy because its just not as natural. But there is some really fast stuff out there. Definitely take the time with the tempo. I'm not sure if its safer to practice "harmful" passages with or without the sheet music. My music is not as difficult, but when I'm reading i don't just jump at the big stuff. You work on the voicing and some execution and then the tempo and all that, and with the sheet music. then without the sheet music you can continue slowly working through it with the hands. LOL I'm not gonna lie, I have tendinitis today. Sucks, hopefully the brace helps because i think its because I didn't wear it 2 days. So, You should take care of your hands when you are not playing this!

[chopin2015]

you totally could hurt yourself if you have smaller hands and try to play it full tempo, so take as long as possible! Its totally worth the patience. I would imagine

[ajspiano]

I certainly take your point, but funnily enough - if i'm going to damage my hands it will be using a computer or a mobile phone, not a piano. The piano is like a healing mechanism for me in that regard..  If i ever do something physical and repetitive that makes my hands/arms feel sore then a Chopin etude run through is an excellent cure.. You know, now at least..  wasn't always like that

I'm not really sure why that happens, but I gather there must be something about using your hands properly that tricks your body into forgetting about the earlier strain..   not that I think learning new difficult material would do that, but i doubt I'll ever hurt myself..  too much focus on making sure it feels right.. if it doesn't you can't play it.

I think the problems arise from impatience (coupled with a lack of knowledge about how to approach difficulties I guess), when you have a musical intention in you and you lack the capability and force it. That's what leads to the tension.

[j_menz]

not that I think learning new difficult material would do that, but i doubt I'll ever hurt myself..  too much focus on making sure it feels right.. if it doesn't you can't play it.

I think there's a special risk when you start learning a piece. Even if you know how to go about finding the right way to play it, at the very start you spend a fair bit of time playing it wrong, even if only just a bit wrong, in the process of finding that right way.  There's also often an enthusiasm to try and get through a fair bit of the piece.  That combination poses some risks, and I find I have to be especially careful at this point not to overdo it. Some things are more likely to get me than others.

[ajspiano]

I think there's a special risk when you start learning a piece. Even if you know how to go about finding the right way to play it, at the very start you spend a fair bit of time playing it wrong, even if only just a bit wrong, in the process of finding that right way.  There's also often an enthusiasm to try and get through a fair bit of the piece.  That combination poses some risks, and I find I have to be especially careful at this point not to overdo it. Some things are more likely to get me than others.

I wondered if there was anyone else still reading my drivel besides chopin2015.

You're probably right, but that may relate to how hard you push yourself though. Many sections of the concerto my technique is probably perfectly adequate for playing it slowly.. its the fast tempos that the movements are problematic for and have to be cautiously refined.

[j_menz]

I wondered if there was anyone else still reading my drivel besides chopin2015.

Yep.  I like to watch others suffering.

You're probably right, but that may relate to how hard you push yourself though. Many sections of the concerto my technique is probably perfectly adequate for playing it slowly.. its the fast tempos that the movements are problematic for and have to be cautiously refined.

Agreed, my problem, I think, is that I like to go faster than is good for me right at the start - I settle down later. It mostly happens where a bit is easy to read but hard to play; if it's hard to read as well then that keeps me in check.

[ajspiano]

Yep.  I like to watch others suffering.

hahah.. hardly suffering..  not that I can play the piece at all, but its evident in pretty much everything else that my tone control and general technique is improving in leaps and bounds from this..

Agreed, my problem, I think, is that I like to go faster than is good for me right at the start - I settle down later. It mostly happens where a bit is easy to read but hard to play; if it's hard to read as well then that keeps me in check.

I think when you know a piece well before you play it this is particularly problematic.. if you've formed a clear idea of an interpretation in advance of physically playing it, and its physically challenging, its very easy to push yourself to play beyond your means.. or practice in chunks that are more than you should really chew off in one hit.. which lowers the efficiency a bit, and I guess would heighten the risk of hurting yourself with particularly difficult passages.

When its hard to read AND hard to play i just get a headache. A lot the time, with new parts of this thing I just read and visualize before I bother trying to play it..  otherwise its a pretty slow uphill battle mentally.

[j_menz]

hahah.. hardly suffering..  not that I can play the piece at all, but its evident in pretty much everything else that my tone control and general technique is improving in leaps and bounds from this..

I can so relate to that. I've been having a bit of a break with my work on the Alkan Symphony, just playing through some of the new music I keep getting, and it's been amazing how much better I've gotten. Just as well, of course, it's been quite a struggle and it would be a waste if it just meant 1 piece.