Do you show your diplomas if parents request to see them?

[green]

I have my diplomas and degrees sealed and framed and hanging on my studio wall. While I usually teach at students homes, I have never been asked to produce them for parents. Alas tonight, after email contact with a new parent, about his 7 year old son starting lessons for the first time, we called by phone arranged to meet at 8pm, an initial 'meeting' only for mum and dad to talk with me, they live close so I did not object but I certainly have never given an initial 'consultation' without lesson, anyways I was about to hang up and he asked for me to bring along my degrees! I said oh sure...well I had already said I would offer these folks a discounted rate as my regular fee was out of there budget, so this kind of set me off. After I had hung up, I looked at my diplomas hanging there on the wall so peacefully, and felt as though I had just been punched in my pride, and so I just said forget it. Actually I first sent off an sms to say it would take me a bit of time to take them out of the frames and would they mind if we met another time, he shot back an sms saying 'how about tomorrow after I finished' (teaching a 7 hour teaching day). There was something humiliating about the whole thing, but yeah I guess I could produce them, and I understand completely that this is what they are investing in...but oddly enough I have never had that request before in nearly 15 years teaching. I'm approaching middle age and feel a little past having to 'prove' myself worthy in that way. If they had wanted a 'trial' lesson, fine, but I felt as though I was applying to have the honor of teaching their son, rather than holding an interview to see if I would take on their son as a student.

How would/do you deal with this type of situation?

[p2u_]

Do you show your diplomas if parents request to see them?

How would/do you deal with this type of situation?

Show those diplomas. Then, when those people are really warmed up for your lessons, reject them. They're bad news, trust me...

Paul

[sucom]

To be honest, I don't think I would take them out of their frames just to allow these parents to judge whether I'm good enough to teach a member of their family.  If my word isn't  good enough, tough!  My view, go find another teacher! 

These sound like troublesome parents to me.  Too much hassle!

[Bob]

That's nuts.  Just tell him what degrees you've got.  If he wants to see them framed, let him come over.  It would be easy to fake some framed paper degrees though.


I do wonder if colleges will give out that info.  I was thinking you could tell him to call your college and ask if you got a degree there.  I don't know if they would give out that info though.

There are always transcripts too.  Still possible to fake those.

Maybe a picture of the degree hanging on the wall would be good enough.


Either way, I wouldn't go out of my way for them.  It is kind of insulting that you've said "I have a degree" and they reply back "Ok. Prove it."

I'm still thinking transcripts.  The paper display degree would be so easy to fake. 

[green]

Appreciated. I was feeling bad as I felt that I have nothing to prove via some paper credentials, and after having agreed to teach at a discounted price, and to meet for a consultation, like a slap in the face he says, "I see you have quite a few letters after your name, I assume you have the certificates to back them up?" There really seems to be a deep level of disrespect in that question, at least in the tradition of teaching in which a pupil approaches a teacher with the humility that it is THEY who must prove themselves worthy, not the teacher...anyways their question suggests that I could be a liar, and that some 'paper' proof will set that straight for them. You would think a trial lesson would be enough, but they didn't want that! An unusual case, like I said, first time in over 10 years...

[hsalix]

Wow.

Unless you are desperate for the money, I would say thanks but no thanks.  You are already making them a huge favor and the way they thank you is by questioning your abilities to teach.

Actually, scratch that.  No amount of money is worth the humiliation of being asked if you have diplomas to back up the letters after your name.  Ugh.

[brogers70]

Appreciated. I was feeling bad as I felt that I have nothing to prove via some paper credentials, and after having agreed to teach at a discounted price, and to meet for a consultation, like a slap in the face he says, "I see you have quite a few letters after your name, I assume you have the certificates to back them up?" There really seems to be a deep level of disrespect in that question, at least in the tradition of teaching in which a pupil approaches a teacher with the humility that it is THEY who must prove themselves worthy, not the teacher...anyways their question suggests that I could be a liar, and that some 'paper' proof will set that straight for them. You would think a trial lesson would be enough, but they didn't want that! An unusual case, like I said, first time in over 10 years...

As a student, I don't feel the slightest need to prove myself worthy of the teacher. It's a simple transaction; the teacher has a skill that I want to learn. I pay the teacher to teach me that skill. The teacher works for me, not the other way around.

But that doesn't mean I do not respect a good teacher enormously and I wouldn't demand to see the diplomas. If you're a good teacher, who cares whether you have certificates, and if you have all the certificates in the world and cannot teach me well, what good to me are the certificates.  These folks sound like way more trouble than they are worth. Unless you are desperate for students, I'd just pass on them. Who needs the headache?

[gsmile]

This hurts your pride and like you said, it's humiliating.

Just leave them alone; if they want to drop by to see your degrees, then let them do so.

But don't go out of your way to do any more for them because they aren't valuing your time the way they should. You've already given them a discount.

The fact that they're asking to see your degrees means that they (a) could've done without the discount and (b) is still on the fence about lessons with you.

[Bob]

Turn it around...

Piano teacher:  Is this your kid?  You're sure?  Would you willing to undergo a DNA test to prove that?  No, wait... That won't matter.  Do you have any documentation to show that you're the legal guardian?  ...Is that your piano?  Do you a receipt for that?  It's not a stolen piano, is it?  Cash only for lessons.  I won't take a check from you.

[tillyfloss]

So...You teach from your own studio (where your certficates are displayed), but you have agreed to go to their place; You have a set rate for teaching, but you have agreed to discount it for them. You give consultation lessons, but have agreed to waive the 'lesson' so they can have a 'meeting'. To me, this suggests that any ounce of authority you may normally possess will be trampled over at every possible opportunity .  Just saying 'forget it', will give them the opportunity to say, 'well, he /she probably didn't have the paperwork anyway...'

I'd be inclined to mail back to say that it is highly inconvenient to take all your certificates down from the wall. However as they live so close by they are welcome to come to your studio at the end of teaching (even if it is after that 7 hour shift) to view them.  If they do come ..(and they might not) that would put you back in control. You will be on your territory, where you will be able to make clear your usual terms and conditions. (Have all the paperwork ready. Don't budge on any of those ts & cs). You can also put Sonny Jim at the piano to test his ear/co-ordination etc. All the stuff you might usually do.

After the meeting (which you can draw to an end) send them away to think it over without committing to anything yourself. If they do get back to you saying they'd like to go ahead with lessons, you can then suggest that since having the meeting you don't feel that the relationship would work for you, & that a different teacher would be more suitable for them.

Myself ? I wouldn't want to get involved.

[p2u_]

That's nuts.  Just tell him what degrees you've got.  If he wants to see them framed, let him come over.  It would be easy to fake some framed paper degrees though.

That's right. Here in Moscow, you can buy cleverly forged diplomas and degrees in the subway. I can imagine those look very solid when framed.

@ Green:

Being part of a legitimate Music Teacher Association should do it for you. Instead of indicating your personal titles in mails, advertisements, etc., it's probably better to indicate your are part of a recognized association that can back up your credentials and protect you against that kind of harassment.

Paul

[quantum]

Personally, I've never been asked for the actual certificate, even at job interviews at schools.

In Canada, on the rare case that one does need to prove the degree it often happens through sealed documents between the party doing the inquiry and the university.  The person in question wouldn't actually be allowed to set their eyes on those documents in order that they remain valid.  This is commonly requested when you are applying to a school for a graduate degree.  

As a teacher, sometimes schools will ask for a criminal background check.  This is not out of the ordinary when your job involves working closely with children.


I like the idea tillyfloss presents.  Invite them for an official interview/audition at your studio.  They may then see your diplomas, and you can make an evaluation of the student.  Actually make the audition as a requirement in the same visit to seeing your diplomas, no more chit-chat with parents only.  You would then be in a position to evaluate the child.  Personally, I would not take the student on even if they show potential.  This family seems to be too much trouble.  Say something like: I do not believe that your child is a fit for this studio, and cannot accept him in this studio at this time.  

Act professionally, and don't give them an excuse to bad mouth your studio.  Make the interview squeaky clean on your part, even if the parents throw more insults back at you.  

[green]

Thanks those are good suggestions. Well I replied to the parent as follows:

"Sorry no today certainly wont work. How about if you stop by my studio when back in ---, and I will assess your sons suitability for lessons with me, and you can have a look at my qualifications here? And of course I will answer any questions you may have and give you a full outline of what I expect in addition to what I have to offer. I would just charge $40. for a one off like this where I am being asked to consider a new student without any obligation to continue. Best regards,---"

His reply:

"Dear ---, I was hoping you could make it today. I'm off on a business trip tonight, back Thursday. Never mind. Are you in  --- during the Christmas break? I prefer to meet at our house, we have a piano. If you are here maybe we can arrange a first lesson after Thursday. Immediately after new year I must be abroad again on a long business trip and want to confirm his piano teacher before I leave. Let me know what works for you. Regards, ---."

His tone has changed significantly, but I think I already said what works for me didn't I?

What associations or affiliations are other teachers a part of? That seems like a good idea, or does any one teach a particular methodology which they are licensed to teach from a head branch?

[keypeg]

How about charging for your time - prepaid - including travel time and expenses (gas).  As a traveling businessman he should understand that.  Say $100 all inclusive?  If you have a scanner you can scan your degrees and send as pdf.  If not, names and dates should be more than sufficient.  He can contact your university to verify if he wants.

[soitainly]

 I kind of side with the parent on the diploma issue. We hear of people misrepresenting their credentials every day. It may be a bit off putting but I respect a parent who wants confirmation on someone teaching his child. A private piano teacher has to understand that all clients are not the same, this isn't Walmart. You should be willing to take reasonable requests be flexible in how you accommodate your clients.

 Of course there are limits to this, and obviously it depends how bad you need the business. It sounds like a battle of wills to me frankly. I am more concerned about him asking for discounts then not really respecting your scheduling procedure than asking for your credentials. But I am also concerned that you seem to be making scheduling difficult as you trying to gain an upper hand as well. If the client is asking you to come to him, do you do that for other clients. If not then you are justified in just saying that your schedule is too tight to travel.

 I don't quite buy into the customer is ALWAYS right philosophy, but you have to be humble. There is always someone else ready to make new customers if you don't want them. I am not saying that you be a doormat, but if you get upset over someone asking for some thing as small as letting them see your diploma, that seems petty. And who says you have to take it out of the frame.

[p2u_]

I kind of side with the parent on the diploma issue. We hear of people misrepresenting their credentials every day. It may be a bit off putting but I respect a parent who wants confirmation on someone teaching his child. A private piano teacher has to understand that all clients are not the same, this isn't Walmart. You should be willing to take reasonable requests be flexible in how you accommodate your clients.

It works both ways. I don't ask proof either whether that money the parent is going to pay me was earned in a legal way.

There are other ways to find out the credibility of this or that teacher. You can go to your local music bookshop, for example, and ask there whether they know the teacher. You could also ask the teacher where he/she graduated from, and verify yourself whether that's true if you want to play detective. Asking a person you have actually already agreed to work with for his/her diploma(s) is a slap in the face, saying: "I'm sorry (or not even that), but I don't trust you", the more so because without expertise, you probably won't be able to distinguish a real diploma from a forged one.

And there is another aspect: a diploma/degree in itself is not automatically guarantee for success. I already had success well BEFORE I got my diplomas, to such an extent that I've never had any advertising costs. On the other hand, now, I get nothing but victims from professors with more diplomas than I have ever seen in my entire life. Go figure...

Paul

[green]

Exactly, so for all the parent knows my diplomas could all be fake, isn't the point here that the emphasis is in the wrong place? As was mentioned already, who cares what diplomas you have, it doesn't mean you are a good teacher or even a good performer. He didn't want a trial lesson, he wanted a discount, he wanted a meeting with me, which I 'humbly' accepted in an attempt to be 'flexible'. I don't like to turn away students who may not be able to afford lessons, that was my reasoning, I get a lot of inquiries from people who just want to know how much I charge, 99% choke when I tell them, so I have started to include an addenda with email that says if finances are an issue, perhaps we can arrange something else, in attempt to save them from just turning purple. This was the first guy who wrote back and said what his limit was, which I sympathized with, but I was now down to what a standard teacher with little experience and a B.mus would be paid in my area. So I guess he felt he was getting good value now, but just wanted to check those credentials to make sure I wasn't cheating him in any way. Hmm. Fair enough! And, I invited him to my studio to have a look. Again I hope that was a gesture of humility, but I also hoped the price tag would wake him up that I am not messing around, if he wants to shop, fine, but not on my time. I have a web site with all required info for getting started,  but very little has come of it in the last 10 months, so I'm just in the process of re-vamping it.

Case in point, I had a new student last week, mid-20's, great lesson (from my perspective), I was pleased, I really saw that I was going to be able to work with this girl. She wanted to do her grade 5 ABRSM, she paid my full rate without hesitation and even asked if she could pay in advance on the first lesson! Now she had initially asked for a trial lesson, with no obligation to continue, I said that was fine, so this was a surprise to me. I always allow new students a 1 month grace period where they just pay me per lesson, so that they don't feel 'roped' into something that after 2 or 3 lessons they decide they don't want to continue with. So, since she was so good, and I had agreed to pick up the grade 5 books for her, with the plan that we would aim for the June exam next year, I said no problem, lets start with payment in advance in the new year, that will give you a chance to see if this is really what you want! Well, today, 4pm, no show. I called her, she was out of the city (so she said), and entirely forgot to call me, so sorry...for the ABRSM books and lost lesson it cost me over $100. But, its my fault, I was stupid and lost the opportunity to receive a month in advance in the name of being humble and trusting of my student. I have also taken the habit of picking up music for students as an added service, simply because they rarely ever do it when I ask them too!

My policy now is: my commitment starts now, when does yours? Payment in advance on the first lesson, trial or not. If I don't have your money, I don't work for you! Period.

[Bob]

Yes, I'd start being less flexible. 

If they've already done a lot of unusual things, they're going to continue to do that.  Eventually it won't work.  They might just be pulling you around, wasting your time, "trolling" you.

[nyiregyhazi]

Actually make the audition as a requirement in the same visit to seeing your diplomas, no more chit-chat with parents only.  You would then be in a position to evaluate the child.  Personally, I would not take the student on even if they show potential.  This family seems to be too much trouble.  Say something like: I do not believe that your child is a fit for this studio, and cannot accept him in this studio at this time.  

Act professionally, and don't give them an excuse to bad mouth your studio.  Make the interview squeaky clean on your part, even if the parents throw more insults back at you.  

Anyone behaving like that would simply come across as a complete dick. And rightfully. This type of behaviour doesn't seize power back. It simply gives away the slightest hope of even pretence at coming from a place of  moral high ground and decency. It would just be weaselly and grossly unfair on the child- who is perfectly innocent in this matter. Such behaviour (out of some petty attempt to get revenge on the parents for the perceived challenge to authority) would be a classic example of resorting to the most extreme low-value behaviour that has no conceivable explanation other than specifically being designed to put somebody down out of revenge. Is that really going to bring a lasting feeling of self-satisfaction or pride in oneself? The poster should either consider them the same as anyone else, or say right now that they cannot take them on- without some cheap sham interview. If there are concerns, just don't get involved. Seeking some kind of weaselly revenge (on what is a minor slight, at most, at present- even if it might be a potential warning signal for the future) would be quite pathetic and totally uncalled for.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'd ask for a birth certificate to prove that the child is really theirs. In all my years of teaching I have never been asked by a private student to show my qualifications I certainly have been asked to discuss my qualifications that's it.

[nyiregyhazi]

Just coming back to the original poster's question, would you also be offended by a request for a police check- to illustrate a clean record? This is standard for teaching in UK schools and every parent has every right to ask me to show mine to them. Few do, but I didn't take it personally on the occasion where I was asked. I wouldn't be prepared to take framed certificates with me to a person's house, but is it such a terrible question in itself? Some people are more cautious than others. It doesn't necessarily mean they are complete tools. If they are, I'd judge it on their general demeanour- not on the request itself.

If something doesn't feel right, by all means don't take them up. However, I don't personally share everybody else's bemusement at the supposed audacity of being asked to demonstrate professional qualifications. If we extrapolate from your suggestion that it implies they are questioning your integrity, should I assume that anyone who asks to see my police check is seeking to imply that I'm a paedophile? Anyone who wants to see it is taking perfectly reasonable precautions, not directly accusing me of being a sex offender. If I told people I was insulted and didn't feel I should have to prove myself, I'd be only the unreasonable one in that scenario- not the cautious parent. If there's indeed something wrong here, it would have to be a lot more than the request itself but rather something about the parents' general demeanour. If you picked up on something in general, you might want to stay away. However, I cannot share anyone's belief that the question itself is in the wrong- even if the thread as a whole has turned into little but backslapping.

[ajspiano]

Well no, because I don't have any (at least not the ones we're talking about here)..  though really I've never been asked to show any qualifications..

Sometimes I discuss my background which generally entails a brief discussion on why I don't hold any performance diplomas, which I'm sure some people find problematic, but those people are probably students/parents that I don't want to deal with so much. It certainly hasn't prevented me attracting students at a similar or higher rate than teachers with qualifications.

I try to communicate through teaching that I have a clue and that its the quality of the teaching that matters and that I can make a positive difference to a students playing without having to have pieces of paper that say I personally can play.

[zezhyrule]

No matter how good a teacher is, if they aren't waving around a little piece of paper that says they're good then they suck

[nyiregyhazi]

I try to communicate through teaching that I have a clue and that its the quality of the teaching that matters and that I can make a positive difference to a students playing without having to have pieces of paper that say I personally can play.

While this is all true, we need to be able to see it from the point of view of someone who knows that they know nothing about the issues. It's not unreasonable for them to want reassurance. If you were to take martial arts lessons from someone, would you trust them if they said they'd never acquired a single belt in any formally recognised martial art? Would you trust that person if they just told you that they are as accomplished as a black belt in Karate? I'd think he was probably having a laugh. You demonstrate in this forum that you indeed have plenty of expertise and that is certainly not in question. But it's only when we step outside of our field that we can appreciate what difficulties a prospective customer faces when coming from outside of ours. There's no benefit from allowing emotions to get involved if such a person is trying to take measures, as best as they can, to see that they are finding someone who is accomplished. I'd honestly consider getting some form of basic qualifications (no matter how meaningless they really are) to help yourself out.

[j_menz]

No matter how good a teacher is, if they aren't waving around a little piece of paper that says they're good then they suck

Or unless they're wearing one of these:

[ajspiano]

While this is all true, we need to be able to see it from the point of view of someone who knows that they know nothing about the issues. It's not unreasonable for them to want reassurance.

Of course not..   the reassurance I provide comes in the form of the explanation regarding my teaching/performance history, which legitimately explains why I don't hold the diplomas (because of what I did musically in the years that I would've perhaps otherwise done Amus/Lmus) and the experience of a free first lesson.

If I had to flash paper around I do have the less impressive music industry TAFE cert, a fairly reasonable stack of first and second prizes from eisteddfods, and top marks in the 12 or so earlier practical/theory grade exams I took..   no one has ever asked though..

..to be honest though I seem to be getting new students as recommendations now rather than from the limited advertising I have, so they come in with a positive outlook already..

[ajspiano]

Or unless they're wearing one of these:

I do have all of those lying around..   I don't claim to know much about anything other than the one on the right though.

[p2u_]

would you also be offended by a request for a police check- to illustrate a clean record? This is standard for teaching in UK schools and every parent has every right to ask me to show mine to them. Few do, but I didn't take it personally on the occasion where I was asked.

Whether they have the (moral) right to do so or not, it is factually a motion of distrust; nothing to build a good parent-teacher relationship on. Policing is the work of the police. Checking your credentials is the task of official government-installed organisations. Period. You have either your school's administration or some teacher's association to back you up. Besides, parents who ask such questions are more than likely the ones who will transfer to another, "more perspective", teacher faster than anybody else. That's just who they are as a species.

I don't personally share everybody else's bemusement at the supposed audacity of being asked to demonstrate professional qualifications.

In your case, for example, isn't it the task of your school's administration to back you up?

If we extrapolate from your suggestion that it implies they are questioning your integrity, should I assume that anyone who asks to see my police check is seeking to imply that I'm a paedophile? Anyone who wants to see it is taking perfectly reasonable precautions, not directly accusing me of being a sex offender.

Believe it or not, but I've been through that too in Holland. I taught a 13-year old girl "too well" (her cousin's parents started displaying envy/jealousy because they had a daughter I had rejected; I don't like prodigies). The gossiping got so bad that people all of a sudden started wondering why a teacher would teach a girl with no talent 1) so often and 2) virtually for free. That the girl's father was disabled and that the family was having a hard time scraping something together was no longer a factor. Final conclusion: "He must be a pervert". In such situations, the only thing you can do is run away as fast as you can; there is NO defense against that kind of accusations, even if you have your clear police record with you in your pocket or even if you have been proven innocent before a court of law.

If I told people I was insulted and didn't feel I should have to prove myself, I'd be only the unreasonable one in that scenario- not the cautious parent.

Part of the game is that you DON'T tell people you are insulted by such a request. This would really discredit you. You just don't want to be treated like a prostitute, so their request should be a signal for you to act accordingly: reject the child. Better safe than sorry.
It's much the same as asking your future partner for the results of their HIV test before you start a relationship. First of all, it would be relatively useless anyway because there is an incubation time so this would require regular testing anyway. Second, if there is no trust initially, then no official document is going to bring that trust into the relationship.

Paul

[Bob]

Would have been a better question on the parent's side? 

Something about students.... To see how well the students are doing...  It really doesn't matter what the credentials are if the students are doing well.  How many students are you teaching?  What are other students working on?  Do you do any recitals for the students?  What's your goal/philosophy with teaching?   That would signal a wise parent to me.  It's not insulting, could be more conversational, much more friendly....

[Bob]

And those are things you can work into the conversation so they already know the answers.

[slane]

I don't think the analogy with the police check is a good one. The police check is done to protect children's
physical and psychological safety, not a risk to the child's piano career.

A better analogy would be applying for a job. You write on your resume bachelor of blah, ph.d. in X and the interviewers can check that, but I've applied for quite a few jobs and never been asked to confirm my degrees. I assume because they can tell from an interview if I've had that experience or not. Of course they check references which actually would be more useful for the parents in this situation than checking pieces of paper which are really just a starting point and worth very little compared to years of experience.

The hurt to your pride, I think, comes from the implication that you are lying about your qualifications, or that you might be lying.

So they might be ponky people who will be hard to work for, or they might be being cautious about something they don't really understand. As others have suggested, just tell them the degrees are on the wall, like in a doctor's office, and they can pop around at an arranged time to see them.

[p2u_]

A better analogy would be applying for a job. You write on your resume bachelor of blah, ph.d. in X and the interviewers can check that, but I've applied for quite a few jobs and never been asked to confirm my degrees.

Quite the reverse, I would say. When YOU apply for a job, YOU have to convince your potential boss to hire you; showing your credentials is an important part of that game.

Now, if that boss approaches you himself, then the game is different and checking your credentials is just an insignificant formality, something he will try to do 1) not himself and 2) through different channels. If he really wants you, then he might just as well skip the procedure, because he knows why he has picked you out to work for him anyway...

Paul

[green]

Another issue this raises, is how many parents would actually like that verification? Of seeing the qualifications, of having references, and seeing a background check? I would say most, but probably out of respect they don't say anything. Perhaps adding a section on a website that says all of these things are available upon request, or maybe just qualifications, a photo of which can be emailed upon request prior to commencing with lessons, would be an idea. However, if its not in their awareness, pointing out that these things are available, might appear suspicious. I think the suggestion of belonging to an association or being a licensed teacher of a methodology, may be a better way to attract the trust of parents.

In the past my advertising has always been word of mouth, referrals. This can be the best, and most reassuring for parents. However when you have many referrals, then those parents are usually friends, and talk about you behind you back. I had an excellent, supportive network for 6 years, then one parent all of a sudden became disgruntled over a money issue, and that affected my whole network. It seems that if they can get some dirt up on you, then they will often feel justified 'forgetting' to pay you on time, coming late, cancelling without notice, because they can and will act like a kind of 'union'. So there are advantages and disadvantages. Anyways, my experience in the past 10 months of public advertising on the net, via my site, and posters in the neighborhoods I would like to teach, has proven virtually useless. Also, despite a very solid professional profile, it has attracted a lot of rif-raf, flaky students, and parents looking for the lowest common denominator. So I am revamping my site, and will make it a little more 'explicit' about the kind of parents and students I am looking for, who should contact me, and who should not.

[p2u_]

If you were to take martial arts lessons from someone, would you trust them if they said they'd never acquired a single belt in any formally recognised martial art? Would you trust that person if they just told you that they are as accomplished as a black belt in Karate? I'd think he was probably having a laugh.

Oh, I missed that one. Since I was in the martial arts world for quite some time, I'd like to say that the analogy is not exactly right. First of all, a belt is just to prevent your pants from falling down and you can buy them any color in any regular sports shop. Just kidding, although there is some truth in it... Before you can train others in Karate, you HAVE TO have a background with that sport (required by law). Besides, a rich karate background is important to your training certification. Anybody who has no black belt (DAN) is unqualified to teach; no exceptions because it is literally a license to teach someone to kill. A good teacher will be part of an association and will show that himself with framed certificates on the wall. If he/she doesn't, it's a sure sign they're bogus. This does not necessarily mean that the teacher is required to walk in the dojo with his black belt on. A humble teacher will most probably avoid intimidating his students, but his certification should be visibly posted for anyone to see. But, please, don't walk up to him asking "Could you please show me your diplomas/degrees?"...  

Paul

[p2u_]

Another issue this raises, is how many parents would actually like that verification? Of seeing the qualifications, of having references, and seeing a background check? I would say most, but probably out of respect they don't say anything.

This should all be provided for by the system itself. Parents and teachers should negotiate about other things. If you as a teacher underline this kind of formal issues (look at how competent I am: 20 teaching diplomas, 4 swimming diplomas, 5 chess diplomas, etc.) in your conversation with an attentive parent, then it may well create the impression that you are actually insecure about your teaching capabilities and therefore hide behind formalities.

Paul

[keypeg]

The situation is that music teaching is one of those professions that doesn't need papers.  I work in a similar field, translation.  Anyone can set out his shingle and start a practice in either field, so there's a lot of garbage going on.  The customer has to have some way of knowing whom to trust.  We work from our homes or studios.  How can they tell if the person they are hiring can do what he says he can do?  And what are the criteria anyway?  They grasp for something tangible, and a diploma is tangible.  When I looked for a teacher for my son years ago, I called a "music school" that told me their teacher graduated from conservatory and had 30 years experience teaching.  He was a refugee from a war ravaged country.  A year later I wouldn't have found him that way because by then he had opened his own studio.  The conservatory degree and experience were convincing.  What made us commit was the first lesson where the poor man had to represent what he did to someone who had no experience or knowledge.

The problem with the present situation is not that the father is asking for a diploma.  It is the whole package: wanting to pay less, wanting the teacher to travel to his house, plus the diplomas.  It sounds like someone who likes to take over, and for a teacher who has to have a leadership role that doesn't sound good.  Plus the interview is on the parent's turf, which lessens the teacher's authority.  Btw, the argument that it should be there because they "have a piano" is absurd.  Would they be asking for piano lessons if they didn't have a piano?

There is a whole other subject which has been discussed before: what should a parent look for when looking for a piano teacher.

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh, I missed that one. Since I was in the martial arts world for quite some time, I'd like to say that the analogy is not exactly right. First of all, a belt is just to prevent your pants from falling down and you can buy them any color in any regular sports shop. Just kidding, although there is some truth in it... Before you can train others in Karate, you HAVE TO have a background with that sport (required by law). Besides, a rich karate background is important to your training certification. Anybody who has no black belt (DAN) is unqualified to teach; no exceptions because it is literally a license to teach someone to kill. A good teacher will be part of an association and will show that himself with framed certificates on the wall. If he/she doesn't, it's a sure sign they're bogus. This does not necessarily mean that the teacher is required to walk in the dojo with his black belt on. A humble teacher will most probably avoid intimidating his students, but his certification should be visibly posted for anyone to see. But, please, don't walk up to him asking "Could you please show me your diplomas/degrees?"...  

Paul

I take your point- but let's say it's not illegal. Someone merely TELLS you that they are as good as any karate black belt but that they teach their own style of mixed martial arts. How can you trust them? Even with a demonstration that looks impressive, I don't know about martial arts. How do I know they aren't just a physically fit person who watched a few Bruce Lee films and can fake it? We should appreciate that a parent is effectively in this situation. There was actually a story about a head of music who provided false qualifications to a school and got a job- being unable to even read music. It's suprisingly easy for a good bullshitter to fake their way through things. This guy passed his interview with flying colours but wasn't caught precisely BECAUSE they failed to check his qualifications. Who approaches who doesn't matter either. If I found a cheap plastic surgeon online, would that invalidate my rights to check that they are properly certified to do work? There's no reason why it should.

It may not be a pleasant thing for teachers, on an emotional level, to feel that you are having yourself questioned. However, professionalism should require us to accept the circumstances and bear it- UNLESS there's a bigger reason to feel the parent has a funny attitude overall. Why is it any worse to check a person's qualifications than a police check? Does a paying customer have any less right to know that a teacher that they will be paying is qualified in the way they say than to check they aren't a sex offender? I don't see any reason why that would be so- and on an emotional level it should be the latter which would cause most offence. It's a matter of professionalism to be able to deal with any emotional discomfort that comes from such things (and to realise that it's the number of convincing frauds and perverts who are genuinely out there to be blamed- not parents who want safeguards that you as a stranger are not among them) and to just get on with it. Again though- UNLESS there is something far bigger than the request for credentials that sets alarm bells ringing.

[p2u_]

If I found a cheap plastic surgeon online, would that invalidate my rights to check that they are properly certified to do work? There's no reason why it should.

There are ways, though, to check his/her credibility. I don't think you walk up to the person and say: "Show me your diplomas and certificates", which I'm sure he/she is prepared for and which may turn out to be quite forged. No, you consult a database of known technicians in the field. If the person's not listed there, you forget about the deal altogether.

It may not be a pleasant thing for teachers, on an emotional level, to feel that you are having yourself questioned. However, professionalism should require us to accept the circumstances and bear it- UNLESS there's a bigger reason to feel the parent has a funny attitude overall.

Well, when you go to the grocery store, do you ask the owner for the bill of lading and all quality certification for his goods? Your child might die, you know, by eating those organges from, let's say, Turkey, Spain, etc. No, you don't, because you trust that Governmental Quality Inspection has taken care of that for you. The owner of the grocery store may very well show you the required documents upon request, but I think he will also give you a hint that he'd rather not have you back in his shop as a client, which is fair, I think. That's why I said in my first reply: show them what they want and then get rid of them with a polite excuse.
P.S.: I feel that Super-Daddy from the first post is just playing a dirty game, and that the topic starter is partly to blame (sorry, green, no bad intentions) for letting it come that far...

Paul

[keypeg]

I think it's the whole package: not just asking for the diplomas, but wanting a meeting at his home "because he has a piano" (any piano student would logically have one), and also wanting discounts.  The combination suggests lack of respect and a future overbearing attitude.

I freelance and customers do ask for my credentials.  In the same way, I know that my accountant has the background to give me proper service.  If you are providing a service then people are entrusting themselves to you and it is reasonable for them to want assurance of some kind.  What kind of thing they should be looking for is less clear, and there is a lot of poor teaching going on by all kinds of people.  "How to look for a teacher" is a separate topic.

[p2u_]

I freelance and customers do ask for my credentials.  In the same way, I know that my accountant has the background to give me proper service.  If you are providing a service then people are entrusting themselves to you and it is reasonable for them to want assurance of some kind.

The underlying problem is that piano teachers don't have the same kind of state protection as, for example, doctors and lawyers. This needs to be solved. At the same time, what do they need to be protected from? Among the ones with diplomas there are too many that don't even have the calling to be Teachers (with capital letter, yes) and just do it because, well just because. On the other hand, there are people who do have the calling but don't have the formal education. Should these be boycotted? Personally, I don't think so.

To the parents who read this: "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (c), certainly not by their formal degrees.

Paul

[green]

The problem with the present situation is not that the father is asking for a diploma.  It is the whole package: wanting to pay less, wanting the teacher to travel to his house, plus the diplomas.  It sounds like someone who likes to take over, and for a teacher who has to have a leadership role that doesn't sound good.  Plus the interview is on the parent's turf, which lessens the teacher's authority.  Btw, the argument that it should be there because they "have a piano" is absurd.  Would they be asking for piano lessons if they didn't have a piano?

There is a whole other subject which has been discussed before: what should a parent look for when looking for a piano teacher.

Here here...exactly. My feeling was that the child was most likely not very talented, I only say this because in fact I have seen this same scenario four times now in different guises. They did a stint at a local Yamaha school, didn't like it, now they want to go private, but the parents have no background in music, are working business people, and so go about finding a teacher in the same way they would do business as usual. Every teacher is generic to them, and not worth more than what they 'think' an 'extra curricular' activity should cost. Little John didn't like Yamaha, so now they just want him to have fun, and they will continue so long as he is enjoying himself. "Just so long as he's having fun" is the way it usually goes. But Dad has suddenly discovered that his usual control tactics, which always work in business situations, aren't working here. Hmm. So his last email softened, addressed me by name and signed it with his (he didn't do that before), trying to save the situation by luring me back in. But it's a ploy, or an 'experiment' as one parent recently said who lasted three lessons before it 'fizzed' (A child with ADD that I was not told about before starting!). If I don't make his kid sound like Horowitz in a month or two, out the door with a 'nothing personal' tack in my back. This breed is new to me, but since I have advertised I have had a few, dominating father with nice kid but really not much talent. They sit behind you breathing down your neck, and tell you that "they can't be too careful, you never know who you are really dealing with" (missing the irony of course). The paranoia is a little more on the surface with some, but it is pervasive, and I am beginning to see this type a little more frequently now...over bearing father who is making it even worse for his kids(s)..

Thank you to all for your support here and excellent feedback, 'I can see clearly now...'

Previous to this I had all parents from the international school where I had taught for 6 years, that was very good, and a case in point that all of those families took me on without hesitation because of my reputation in the music department, the school checks your credentials, not the parents...

[the89thkey]

To be honest, I don't think I would take them out of their frames just to allow these parents to judge whether I'm good enough to teach a member of their family.  If my word isn't  good enough, tough!  My view, go find another teacher! 

These sound like troublesome parents to me.  Too much hassle!

I agree. I don't like to accept untalented students anyway. I only work part time and want it to be worthwhile. And talented students for some reason tend NOT to ask to see diplomas...

[j_menz]

And talented students for some reason tend NOT to ask to see diplomas...

The student is 7 and probably has little idea what a diploma is, much less wants to check them.

The talents of the parents would seem irrelevant.

[the89thkey]

The student is 7 and probably has little idea what a diploma is, much less wants to check them.

The talents of the parents would seem irrelevant.

I meant to say the parents of talented students. I know there is no logic, it just seems to happen that way.

[j_menz]

I meant to say the parents of talented students. I know there is no logic, it just seems to happen that way.

How does one judge the talents of a 7 year old who has never had a lesson before?

[slane]

I think the analogy with other professionals is the correct one.  YOu don't expect your doctor or accountant to come to you so you can interview them. You do expect them to display their credentials in their office.

Unfortunately, as people have pointed out, piano teachers don't have the same professional organisations as doctors and accountants and that's partly because the consequences of someone calling themselves a piano teacher are far less than being treated by an unqualified doctor.

I don't want to debate whether you need diplomas to teach or not, but if the parent expects professional qualifications he should treat the qualified professional as he would any other professional and neither beat down the price, nor demand interviews in his house.

[the89thkey]

How does one judge the talents of a 7 year old who has never had a lesson before?

I don't take 7 year olds, and rarely kids who have never had lessons before. And you can tell, once they start. Where did you get the 7 years figure? I never mentioned it...

[j_menz]

I don't take 7 year olds, and rarely kids who have never had lessons before. And you can tell, once they start. Where did you get the 7 years figure? I never mentioned it...

Read the original post.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, when you go to the grocery store, do you ask the owner for the bill of lading and all quality certification for his goods? Your child might die, you know, by eating those organges from, let's say, Turkey, Spain, etc. No, you don't, because you trust that Governmental Quality Inspection has taken care of that for you. The owner of the grocery store may very well show you the required documents upon request, but I think he will also give you a hint that he'd rather not have you back in his shop as a client, which is fair, I think. That's why I said in my first reply: show them what they want and then get rid of them with a polite excuse.

The analogy doesn't quite work. Neither is a life or death scenario, but it's about a parent not knowing what they will get for their money. As Jerry Seinfeld said, fruit is a gamble. If it's gone off you've lost your money that time and don't go back for a refund. When it comes to a piano lesson, a parent with no experience has no yardstick. It's not like automatically spitting out an overripe plum and having lost out on a one-off basis (and knowing that if it recurs too often you'll ultimately go to a new greengrocer). How can someone be expected to pay for expensive lessons that RECUR week after week- if they have no yardstick to measure quality of the produce received? You and I know diplomas can be useless. But a person who has no yardstick would be wiser to value them than to assume that whoever they chance upon will come up with something worthy of their money on a long-term basis. Sometimes those with both the least qualifications and the least expertise are very good at looking accomplished.

As you say, if there's cause to be wary a polite excuse is the way to go. But I don't believe any parent should ever be judged on asking for credentials. If it's part of a bigger issue (which may well be the case, in the original post) then it would be about the other stuff- not the request itself.

[the89thkey]

This is one of the only active topics in this forum...(well now that's not true, there's my forum on polyrhythms)