Trills, Ornaments - how to train using fingers 3-4-5

[green]

Trills, Ornaments - what exercises do you use (if any), and how do you train to use fingers 3-4-5? Personally I avoid using those fingers but have never trained myself (or students) to use 3-4-5, how do you do it?

My sense is that it is not a matter of strength, but co-ordination, never the less they have remained weak and I always avoid using then. 1 or 2 plus 3-4 or 5 is not a problem...

I'm guessing others have this issue, and with students, how did you train yourself/students to over come this?

[ppianista]

It's mandatory to support your fingers with the weight and momentum of your arms. To get a feel for how to apply this momentum, try this exercise: Play trills only with short, rolling movements of your whole arm - quick as a shiver. Try 2-4 and 2-5 first, go on to 1-3 and 2-3 and then try 3-5, 3-4 and 4-5. Good luck!
 

[j_menz]

Good luck!

You're gonna need it if you try and make sense of, or try to follow, that.

[ppianista]

Why do you think so? 

I'm not saying one has to PLAY trills ONLY in the way I described. It's just an exercise for the relaxation of the arm while playing trills.
I often watched people trying to play trills only with their fingers while keeping the rest of the arm stiff, cut off from the movement of the fingers - which is terribly wrong and unnatural. The recommended exercise is meant to show a way to playing trills which begins in the shoulder joint and ENDS in the fingertips.

[j_menz]

Why do you think so? 

I'm not saying one has to PLAY trills ONLY in the way I described. It's just an exercise for the relaxation of the arm while playing trills.
I often watched people trying to play trills only with their fingers while keeping the rest of the arm stiff, cut off from the movement of the fingers - which is terribly wrong and unnatural. The recommended exercise is meant to show a way to playing trills which begins in the shoulder joint and ENDS in the fingertips.

All that is fine, more or less, for normal trills. But then "normal" trills aren't usually 3-4-5 type trills. The reason one finds the need to use these fingers is generally that the more preferred ones are required for other purposes at the time. And it is that use which restricts the ability to use the arm much (as arm movements affect all the fingers).

[ajspiano]

Trills, Ornaments - what exercises do you use (if any), and how do you train to use fingers 3-4-5?

..chopin 10/2. 

Probably not an ideal starting point for students.

...

You will undoubtedly find that if you develop the coordination it becomes much clearer as to how to help someone else do the same thing. Beginners experience problems with 4-5 in situations that are not as difficult as a trill or ornament.. so you start there, by helping fix those coordination problems..  which I find are usually in part caused by the student failing to position the hand/arm appropriately (poor balance over those fingers). Once that element is fixed it usually comes together given a little bit of practice.

[ppianista]

The reason one finds the need to use these fingers is generally that the more preferred ones are required for other purposes at the time. And it is that use which restricts the ability to use the arm much (as arm movements affect all the fingers).

Again, I'm not saying one has to use the arm MUCH. But I insist: It's necessary to apply weight and momentum of the arm when playing trills, especially with 4-5 because these are the weakest fingers.

This is quite clear e.g. in
Chopin, Waltz op.34, 1, bar 35  or
Chopin, Polonaise op. 53 bar 27

But also in
Beethoven, op. 57, 1 bar 138 and 142
my arm supports the trilling fingers. Not MUCH. But it does.
 

[j_menz]

But I insist: It's necessary to apply weight and momentum of the arm when playing trills, especially with 4-5 because these are the weakest fingers.

There is a difference between allowing the arm to do this and practicing to force it to.

I personally don't find it necessary, though I may simply be unaware of doing it to some degree.  But to start by exaggerating that and then hoping it will then settle down seems to me most inefficient.

Better would be to do more pieces that fully use all the fingers.  This will develop the independence that is lacking. It will surprise no-one here that I recommend Bach for that purpose.

[ppianista]

Beginners experience problems with 4-5 in situations that are not as difficult as a trill or ornament.. so you start there, by helping fix those coordination problems..  which I find are usually in part caused by the student failing to position the hand/arm appropriately (poor balance over those fingers).

I totally agree there.

The difficulties in playing trills have to be approached beginning with the arm, not the fingers.

[outin]

Better would be to do more pieces that fully use all the fingers.  This will develop the independence that is lacking. It will surprise no-one here that I recommend Bach for that purpose.

I guess it also depens on the fingering one uses for the Bach. With the fingering you suggested for that Invention I already notice a change in my right hand 4-5. Other pieces seem much easier for them now.

[ppianista]

A very good "exercise" for trills with 4-5, 3-5 and 3-4 is:

But be careful to support your fingers with the right movements of arm and wrist. See how Andrea Lam does it - from 0:35 onwards.

[hfmadopter]

I totally agree there.

The difficulties in playing trills have to be approached beginning with the arm, not the fingers.

In my experience people tend to think of application of trills by how to execute up and down pressure to the fingers used in the trill. Also depending on the piano used, they think of full travel of the keys, where that may not be needed. Subtle movement of the fingers at the correct angle and starting from a slight depression of the keys ( the piano must have escapement) can lead to faster smoother trills, with just a sort of scratching motion. The keys only need to move through the let off and back again, so half the travel of the key is gone from this excercise.

Most upper end  and many mid level digital pianos have this sort of action, as do grand pianos. I haven't played an upright in nearly 40 years, so I don't know where those are at these days. I know that my old upright had quite sluggish action and that's why I wanted a grand back then. I read about some uprights having finer action these days.

Additionally, people think of that down pressure more than finger lifting. Non the less, the scratch motion is more natural than either !

[yadeehoo]

Trills, Ornaments - what exercises do you use (if any), and how do you train to use fingers 3-4-5? Personally I avoid using those fingers but have never trained myself (or students) to use 3-4-5, how do you do it?

My sense is that it is not a matter of strength, but co-ordination, never the less they have remained weak and I always avoid using then. 1 or 2 plus 3-4 or 5 is not a problem...

I'm guessing others have this issue, and with students, how did you train yourself/students to over come this?

Great tip, thank you, I'm a begginner and I find that useful, Especially for Chopin or Beethoven. Great !!