Is music a lost art?

[brendan765]

    I compose my own music at the Piano with a pencil and paper; This art should be brought back into schools not just as a composition class, but as the highest importance in the music world.

Playing the great composers is important to start with, but we need to learn to be creative at the piano, and other instruments. Not bound to a book, or even worse Hanon.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I totally feel you dude.

It sucks getting penalized on a music theory project for having illegal chord progressions, parallel fifths, voice crossing, subsitutions etc., despite the fact it actually sounds good.

[brendan765]

Someone needs to start a good movement on this, i'm beginning also to wonder how stupid it is. I've done music theory for a while now, it's really not artistic at all. I come from the point of view that Composing is most important while student advances through the studies. I have done this ever since I was about 8 years old, and now i've developed a style of my own and I follow the paths of great composers/pianists...such as Chopin, Liszt, I think they're the best. even better than Bach.   (Debussy set quite a good example as well by getting kicked out of piano school)

as a pianist you intuitively see the patterns when you play the piano, music theory is just a different way of saying "hey you see these patterns"? when you already knew all this stuff, just not in words.  (believe it or not teqnique is non intuitive and most be taught properly) or you're screwed unless you want to relearn it. teaching of technique today is why most pianists suck, cuase they cant play the music they hear in their heads.

The way history and basically music in general is taught rightnow is stupid, espicially by saying Bach is god, and Beethovens next, etc. (not hating on Beethoven, I love playing his Sonatas) but going in a chronological order of whats the most important is stupid.

Bach wrote shitty music compared to me or Chopin, I never got emotionally affected by his variations, Chopin on the other hand wrote beutiful, heart wrenching harmonys and melodys.

 Mozart was my favorite until I knew you could completely abondoned the rules, which is better

[outin]

as a pianist you intuitively see the patterns when you play the piano, music theory is just a different way of saying "hey you see these patterns"? when you already knew all this stuff, just not in words.  

You actually do have a point here. The reason why I don't like to study theory is that I find it so frustrating to try to learn all these terms and concepts other people have given to things that already often are in my head, but stored and understood in my own internal concept system. This may be called intuition, but it really is just about using an individual reference system that one created because of learning about things in your own individual way.

I have always been creating my own theories in any subject, so studying other people's theories is more about comparing and testing against my own and learning about them than learning them. Similarly when I read music theory I usually do understand it on some level but I do not "learn" it because it does not fit to what already is in my head. I cannot fill the holes in my knowledge/theory base with the material that is available, I either have to fill them by inventing my own solutions or start from the very beginning and build the whole system again with the conventional theory base. For that I have neither the time nor motivation, so I will just keep finding solutions to the problems as I go and hopefully one day I understand everything, even though it will be in a way that no-one else could be able to decipher...

[brendan765]

yeah alot of famous composers felt the same way, and the ones who didnt were the ones that were bound to a strict form and their music was limited..bach was limited.

Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, Beethovens later years were all good examples of using intuitiveness in composing

[cmg]

Bach wrote shitty music compared to me or Chopin

Easily the "Best Quote of the Year".  And the new year has hardly begun!!!!!

[keypeg]

yeah alot of famous composers felt the same way, and the ones who didnt were the ones that were bound to a strict form and their music was limited..bach was limited.

Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, Beethovens later years were all good examples of using intuitiveness in composing

They were in different time periods.  And if you really look at Bach you will find he is not as limited as you may think.  Actually, one of my theory books gives examples of Bach and then admonishes us not to "break the rules" that Bach did!!!  There is also a documentary on Bach suggesting that he had to fight authorities in various places he was hired because of his scandalous innovations.  In the documentary he is jailed at one point because he practised musical freedom - I don't know how accurate this is.

[cey444]

yeah alot of famous composers felt the same way, and the ones who didnt were the ones that were bound to a strict form and their music was limited..bach was limited.

Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, Beethovens later years were all good examples of using intuitiveness in composing

I don't know much about Bach but I'm sure that he did break the rules significantly. That's why he has the status which he has today.

To some extent I do agree with you, what is the point in learning Bach's counterpoint and chorales, and all the rules that come with it. However when you get to university level composition, they do encourage you to break the rules. I know some places want pastiche but mostly they don't, mostly the courses are run by contemporary composers who specially want contemporary compositions.

However, the world of Western Art Music is more or less dominated by Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc.etc.etc. and in order to break the rules, you must first know how they came about. I am not a composer, but I have studied theory and it is helpful in understanding compositions. I think we need to remember that these composers were already aware of these conventions when they composed, they didn't compose just out of their head, the compositions came from study of all the compositions in preceding years. I see it as kind of building upon the work of the previous generation, which allows us to move further and further. Kind of like technology, you are aware of what they did, and then you build on it.

But I do agree with you, especially with composition students, it hard to let your creativity flow when your bound by all these rules. That said, I would like to hear some of your compositions if you would like to post them up 

[outin]

yeah alot of famous composers felt the same way, and the ones who didnt were the ones that were bound to a strict form and their music was limited..bach was limited.

At this point our views go their different ways... Everyone is limited of course, but that doesn't mean they can't be creative. And learning and knowing does not make one less creative. It gives one more tools and I wouldn't say one can have too many. I would assume most of the famous composers wanted these tools, they just used what they wanted and went further with their own.

[cmg]

The point to learning the rules is the same as learning the rules of grammar with a language or algebra and calculus in mathematics: it's so your "audience" has a framework, a convention to understand you.  The various rules of "voice-leading," e.g., are meant to give a smooth flow to music:  it's pleasing to hear and in most cases, especially for singers, is pleasing to sing.  

Big, repeated intervalic leaps are exciting and useful, but overused, they make music sound unmusical.  

Does the word "harmony" have any meaning to you?  It has its own vocabulary with its own rules.  Breaking the rules gives the music tension through surprises that evoke feelings in listeners.

We learn the "basics" because the basics in music are like atomic structures:  they are there through centuries of use because they give shape to sound.  Aleatory music, for example, is a fascinating jump-off but tedious after a short period of time.  No rules and after awhile, nothing significant is expressed. It sounds like what it is:  chaos.  Boring.

The 12-tone row is another "grammar."  In the right hands, breaking the rules of the row creates great beauty.  Surprise.  That's the word.  You can't surprise your audience by always being new and quirky -- besides, to quote mortals much more advanced than I, "there is nothing new under the sun."  You surprise by taking a convention and suddenly turning it on its head.  

But you have to begin with the convention.



  

[erikwvh]

Do you go to music school in a big city? I don't mean to be facetious, but your viewpoint seems a little odd.

I go to school in Boston, with most of my friends from home going to school in L.A., Chicago, or New York. Most people at our schools across all instruments are avid writers. We're playing/singing each other's tunes quite often. Lost art? Sounds like you need to make the big city move.

Bach was limited?

He writes pedestrian music compared to you?

Just because you don't have a taste for something, doesn't mean that it is any less important or valid. I'm a big supporter and performer of new music in the Boston area, and I've yet to meet working composers who look to put themselves above voices of the past. A little bit of humility would serve you well, Brendan.

Learning theory hasn't destroyed any of the greatest composers of the day, so I don't see where you guys are getting the idea that it will destroy you. If you're creative, it will come out regardless. Theory is just the beginning step towards other classes such as tonal counterpoint, orchestration, fugue, and so on. Working with somebody who is extremely theoretically literate is always a much more pleasurable experience, as their knowledge base is vastly greater.

Don't mean to be a grinch about a lot of these issues, but they're just things that I hear quite a lot from people who perhaps aren't ready to make the sacrifices and run the exercises that are necessary to work with the best in the business. Eat your vegetables, they're good for you.

[brendan765]

They were in different time periods.  And if you really look at Bach you will find he is not as limited as you may think.  Actually, one of my theory books gives examples of Bach and then admonishes us not to "break the rules" that Bach did!!!  There is also a documentary on Bach suggesting that he had to fight authorities in various places he was hired because of his scandalous innovations.  In the documentary he is jailed at one point because he practised musical freedom - I don't know how accurate this is.

We ended the monarchy, but all those composers were usually kept pretty locked down until Beethoven came along haha, he said F*** Monarchy basically.

[brendan765]

I don't know much about Bach but I'm sure that he did break the rules significantly. That's why he has the status which he has today.

To some extent I do agree with you, what is the point in learning Bach's counterpoint and chorales, and all the rules that come with it. However when you get to university level composition, they do encourage you to break the rules. I know some places want pastiche but mostly they don't, mostly the courses are run by contemporary composers who specially want contemporary compositions.

However, the world of Western Art Music is more or less dominated by Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc.etc.etc. and in order to break the rules, you must first know how they came about. I am not a composer, but I have studied theory and it is helpful in understanding compositions. I think we need to remember that these composers were already aware of these conventions when they composed, they didn't compose just out of their head, the compositions came from study of all the compositions in preceding years. I see it as kind of building upon the work of the previous generation, which allows us to move further and further. Kind of like technology, you are aware of what they did, and then you build on it.

But I do agree with you, especially with composition students, it hard to let your creativity flow when your bound by all these rules. That said, I would like to hear some of your compositions if you would like to post them up 

I already compose my own way and wont let anybody change it. I make the observations of the great composers and what they've left behind and observe the world of composers of around me....

and with what I observe I can use or deny it.

[brendan765]

Do you go to music school in a big city? I don't mean to be facetious, but your viewpoint seems a little odd.

I go to school in Boston, with most of my friends from home going to school in L.A., Chicago, or New York. Most people at our schools across all instruments are avid writers. We're playing/singing each other's tunes quite often. Lost art? Sounds like you need to make the big city move.

Bach was limited?

He writes pedestrian music compared to you?




I know it wont destroy me, I've composed my own way forever...I'm studying music theory right now as a junior in highschool, it's completely worthless knowledge to me other than it will get me an easy A+ in college theory.

Just because you don't have a taste for something, doesn't mean that it is any less important or valid. I'm a big supporter and performer of new music in the Boston area, and I've yet to meet working composers who look to put themselves above voices of the past. A little bit of humility would serve you well, Brendan.

Learning theory hasn't destroyed any of the greatest composers of the day, so I don't see where you guys are getting the idea that it will destroy you. If you're creative, it will come out regardless. Theory is just the beginning step towards other classes such as tonal counterpoint, orchestration, fugue, and so on. Working with somebody who is extremely theoretically literate is always a much more pleasurable experience, as their knowledge base is vastly greater.

Don't mean to be a grinch about a lot of these issues, but they're just things that I hear quite a lot from people who perhaps aren't ready to make the sacrifices and run the exercises that are necessary to work with the best in the business. Eat your vegetables, they're good for you.

[brendan765]

I think the whole music is a competition thing that many people portray is completely disgraceful, but we need more Victor Borges, Hamelins, composers and creativity...rather than LangLang, competitions, and ate up college programs

[teran]

Of course you're forgetting the battle of getting a large proportion of the kids to give a sh*t about composing.

Then again I would have enjoyed that a lot as a kid, but I am a weirdo.

Edit: Wow a single asterisk censor? I mean what the *** is the point in that?

Edit: Well at least that one does its job.

[j_menz]

We ended the monarchy,

We did? Which one? And which "we"?

but all those composers were usually kept pretty locked down until Beethoven came along haha, he said F*** Monarchy basically.

That would no doubt be the Hapsburg imperial family, who were Beethoven's friends, dedicatees and patrons?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I think the whole music is a competition thing that many people portray is completely disgraceful, but we need more Victor Borges, Hamelins, composers and creativity...rather than LangLang, competitions, and ate up college programs

I agree with you for the most part, but...

After a certain point, competitions become ridiculous.  I mean, if you have someone who misses half of the notes versus someone who actually excites it properly, then it's obvious who's the winner.  

But once you get to the Tchaikovsky competitions, it gets a little ridiculous.  They all play it flawlessly!  It's just a matter of taste now.  You really can't compare.

Lang Lang isn't a bad pianist.  It's just that his bad performances and his facial expressions get sooo much more attention than his good stuff.

[brendan765]

We did? Which one? And which "we"?

That would no doubt be the Hapsburg imperial family, who were Beethoven's friends, dedicatees and patrons?

Know your history? Yes, it's not to late to take out a pen and paper and make history.

[brendan765]

I agree with you for the most part, but...

After a certain point, competitions become ridiculous.  I mean, if you have someone who misses half of the notes versus someone who actually excites it properly, then it's obvious who's the winner.  

But once you get to the Tchaikovsky competitions, it gets a little ridiculous.  They all play it flawlessly!  It's just a matter of taste now.  You really can't compare.

Lang Lang isn't a bad pianist.  It's just that his bad performances and his facial expressions get sooo much more attention than his good stuff.

He doesnt compose and neither do 90% of them, which makes them all forgeting what makes the music the play art...COMPOSING!

[j_menz]

take out a pen and paper and make history.

I will if you promise to be part of it.

[lostinidlewonder]

brendan765 is the89thkey, both are imaginary personalities.

[brendan765]

I don't know much about Bach but I'm sure that he did break the rules significantly. That's why he has the status which he has today.

To some extent I do agree with you, what is the point in learning Bach's counterpoint and chorales, and all the rules that come with it. However when you get to university level composition, they do encourage you to break the rules. I know some places want pastiche but mostly they don't, mostly the courses are run by contemporary composers who specially want contemporary compositions.

However, the world of Western Art Music is more or less dominated by Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc.etc.etc. and in order to break the rules, you must first know how they came about. I am not a composer, but I have studied theory and it is helpful in understanding compositions. I think we need to remember that these composers were already aware of these conventions when they composed, they didn't compose just out of their head, the compositions came from study of all the compositions in preceding years. I see it as kind of building upon the work of the previous generation, which allows us to move further and further. Kind of like technology, you are aware of what they did, and then you build on it.

But I do agree with you, especially with composition students, it hard to let your creativity flow when your bound by all these rules. That said, I would like to hear some of your compositions if you would like to post them up 

After I finish writing my 'Heroic Suite' it consits of a Fantasy, Waltz, and a last movement that is very successful feeling, pours out emotions of a winner or victor. For now I'll call it the victory movement.

I will be a few weeks, art is never rushed.

I will be doing suites based on common emotions, (no set story for the interpreter) I leave you with emotion and all the expressive notation that will guide interpreters.

 Also 5 orchestral pieces to resemble the five senses of the human and will possibly do a 6th sense. The "Senses works will be unlike anything ever heard in music, full of rhythm and open harmony but no melody present. (The rhythm will define the harmony as far as where it is and help out the untrained ear enjoy..shows the resolving of prhases etc)

My suites will be made for Orchestras as well, once I master Transposing and knowing the potential of all instruments. in 1 - 2 years.

I will be finishing solo works for piano here and there too.

[lostinidlewonder]

Lol.... maybe you should think about getting a real job and stop playing fantasy games

[brendan765]

I will if you promise to be part of it.

Do it for yourself and music not someone you dont know.

[lostinidlewonder]

Do it for yourself and music not someone you dont know.

And yet you like to brag about it to people you don't know.

[brendan765]

The point to learning the rules is the same as learning the rules of grammar with a language or algebra and calculus in mathematics: it's so your "audience" has a framework, a convention to understand you.  The various rules of "voice-leading," e.g., are meant to give a smooth flow to music:  it's pleasing to hear and in most cases, especially for singers, is pleasing to sing.  

Big, repeated intervalic leaps are exciting and useful, but overused, they make music sound unmusical.  

Does the word "harmony" have any meaning to you?  It has its own vocabulary with its own rules.  Breaking the rules gives the music tension through surprises that evoke feelings in listeners.

We learn the "basics" because the basics in music are like atomic structures:  they are there through centuries of use because they give shape to sound.  Aleatory music, for example, is a fascinating jump-off but tedious after a short period of time.  No rules and after awhile, nothing significant is expressed. It sounds like what it is:  chaos.  Boring.

The 12-tone row is another "grammar."  In the right hands, breaking the rules of the row creates great beauty.  Surprise.  That's the word.  You can't surprise your audience by always being new and quirky -- besides, to quote mortals much more advanced than I, "there is nothing new under the sun."  You surprise by taking a convention and suddenly turning it on its head.  

But you have to begin with the convention.



  

I know the rules.

Whether you break them or not....Composing is something that must happen in order to be able to call music art as it moves forward. Unless you want to call Justin Bieber and Little Wayne art. which are the market stealers of music listeners.

So if you could do us a favor take out a pen, (pencil if you need) as well as staff paper.

and write something new, create, leave people flabergasted, if you want art in music to exist anymore.

[lostinidlewonder]

Your analogy is like giving a kindergarden student some finger painting paint and say, Ok now go and create a Mona Lisa.

[j_menz]

After I finish writing my 'Heroic Suite' it consits of a Fantasy, Waltz, and a last movement that is very successful feeling, pours out emotions of a winner or victor. For now I'll call it the victory movement.

Well you appear to have completed the Fantasy.

My suites will be made for Orchestras as well, once I master Transposing and knowing the potential of all instruments. in 1 - 2 years.

So you will be a great orchestral composer once you (a) learn to write for an orchestra and (b) learn what all those pesky instruments sound like?  Isn't that the equivalent of "I will be a great pianist one I figure out what these keys do"?

[j_menz]

Do it for yourself and music not someone you dont know.

Unfortunately, making you part of history is generally illegal without your consent. Mostly with it, too, but that's where the creativity comes in.

[brendan765]

Lol.... maybe you should think about getting a real job and stop playing fantasy games

Maybe you shouldnt be ignorant; and compose art, or support it, otherwise our future of music is techno and gangster rap...let's face it who owns majority of market shares for music...people like lil wayne. This is a world which is run by money it used to be Kings and queens that you manipulate...Now people need to manipulate the economy to get what they want...such as keeping art of composing, and puting little wayne back in the ghetto

[brendan765]

Unfortunately, making you part of history is generally illegal without your consent. Mostly with it, too, but that's where the creativity comes in.

I dont want to see this...

LIL WAYNE DOWN IN HISTORY- BEST MUSIC MAKER EVER! YO

no that is bad. there is no intelectual, Intelligence in what he does.

[lostinidlewonder]

Maybe you shouldnt be ignorant;....

At least I am not ignorant of the fact that you are a fraud and like to create multiple accounts on pianostreet.

[j_menz]

I dont want to see this...

LIL WAYNE DOWN IN HISTORY- BEST MUSIC MAKER EVER! YO

no that is bad. there is no intelectual, Intelligence in what he does.

Hmm. Crack is evidently waaaay too cheap.

[cmg]

After I finish writing my 'Heroic Suite' it consits of a Fantasy, Waltz, and a last movement that is very successful feeling, pours out emotions of a winner or victor. For now I'll call it the victory movement.

I will be a few weeks, art is never rushed.

I will be doing suites based on common emotions, (no set story for the interpreter) I leave you with emotion and all the expressive notation that will guide interpreters.

 Also 5 orchestral pieces to resemble the five senses of the human and will possibly do a 6th sense. The "Senses works will be unlike anything ever heard in music, full of rhythm and open harmony but no melody present. (The rhythm will define the harmony as far as where it is and help out the untrained ear enjoy..shows the resolving of prhases etc)

My suites will be made for Orchestras as well, once I master Transposing and knowing the potential of all instruments. in 1 - 2 years.

I will be finishing solo works for piano here and there too.

Okay, this is beyond troll territory.  We're experiencing rather obvious  psychopathology.

Delusional thinking without doing a parody on delusional states.  Grandiose without the finesse of a con artist faking grandiosity.  The real thing.  Well, as real as such a thing can get and still function as a normal person outside this ludicrous cyber-sphere.

My advice, which won't be heeded of course, is to back off and let "brendan765" just fade away.  Unless you want to see some truly sad posts with sadder replies.  Remember the backlash when forumites realized his alter ego, the89thkey, was a fraud?  

What's brewing now will be worse and a lot less fun.

This guy's got several loose shingles.

Brendan, please get help and get off the internet.  You're seriously misfiring more than one cylinder.  

And I'm really not joking.  

[brendan765]

Well i'll leave you to regret what you've said when I post my Heroic suite on youtube. I don't want my sheet music to be stolen, so perhaps you will buy my sheet music once it is safe under copyrights laws. I'm sure you would enjoy playing it, and besides sometimes people like listening and reading music as one.

[brendan765]

I encourage your ignorance, I always enjoy the responses of people when they make themselves sound stupid. It is part of the fun of being a musician, seing reactions of listeners.

[m1469]

I've kind of been under the impression that music is alive more than ever with thousands of musical geniuses and new Mozarts walking around these days.  You know, one in every musical family, in every neighborhood and town, every music studio and classroom who has a real and accomplished teacher guiding it ... especially on YouTube and the internet.

[ted]

That's what I think too m1469. Of course the actual modes of expression and transmission might change, indeed have already changed, through the phenomenal advances in technology. But barring most unlikely and huge changes in evolution, the drive to create and experience music will remain deep in the human soul.

[m1469]

Yes, I was speaking more to the fact that there is a lot of sensationalism these days, and because of that it appears there are geniuses everywhere and it's easy to fall into thinking there has to be that element in order for there to be music and professionalism.  I actually don't think it's true that there are Mozarts everywhere and musical geniuses, not in the way it is sensationalized anyway, but I also believe there is music deeply within each of us and that what you say is actually true.

[lloyd_cdb]

Unless you want to call Justin Bieber and Little Wayne art. which are the market stealers of music listeners.

So if you could do us a favor take out a pen, (pencil if you need) as well as staff paper.

and write something new, create, leave people flabergasted, if you want art in music to exist anymore.

There is other music that exists beyond those two categories.  In classical music, do you really think every composer is remembered?  Clearly some of them sucked.  The artists you mention are starting to become the 'older' trends in music. They are starting to plateau just like classical, jazz, classic rock, punk rock... every other category you could possibly imagine.  I almost purely listen to classical, simply because I enjoy it the most.  That doesn't mean I think every category sucks or is 'dumb'.

The world is technological.  Limiting art to pens and staff paper is like saying the only artistic writers are ones that write in longhand or even a typewriter. Umm... computers exist for a reason, that's just ridiculously ignorant.  One of the most modern trends in music is EDM.  Google Electronic Dance Music, and some of the first things you'll see are 'investors getting involved'.  That would mean it's a growing musical category.  It involves no staff paper, but can be incredibly complex and adheres to musical theory.  Magically, it is only created on computers.

Music is constantly evolving.  While there are definitely artists in the EDM category that are bland and not creative, there are plenty of artists that incorporate music theory and fit your conceptual definition of "intelligent".  My brother is a musician and classically trained.  While I don't necessarily love his music, he makes some fascinating EDM pieces that adhere to musical theory. He's involved in promoting the industry and his pieces can often be long/evolving/concerto-like.  I'm pretty sure that means there is music that is "new, [creative], leaves people flabergasted", and is artistic. 

Take your head out of the sand.

[keypeg]

I take people literally, and I'm learning that sometimes they say the opposite of what they think in order to make a point, by saying the opposite.  So is this literal, or the opposite (below)?  Do you literally believe that in this time period there are an incredible number of "new Mozarts", which is what happens when students have "real accomplished teachers"?  (Otherwise students don't get anywhere, because one or the other factor is missing)  Or is this sarcasm because the Internet seems to be showing this?

I've kind of been under the impression that music is alive more than ever with thousands of musical geniuses and new Mozarts walking around these days.  You know, one in every musical family, in every neighborhood and town, every music studio and classroom who has a real and accomplished teacher guiding it ... especially on YouTube and the internet.

because then in response to Ted, who says the drive to to create and experience music is deep within us, you write

Yes, I was speaking more to the fact that there is a lot of sensationalism these days, and because of that it appears there are geniuses everywhere and it's easy to fall into thinking there has to be that element in order for there to be music and professionalism.  I actually don't think it's true that there are Mozarts everywhere and musical geniuses, not in the way it is sensationalized anyway, but I also believe there is music deeply within each of us and that what you say is actually true.

So the 2nd part seems to be saying that these students who play well with great teachers are merely Internet sensationalism - meaning your first paragraph was sarcasm and you wrote things that you believed were not true.  Then you say that the drive to music is deep within us, so that part IS true.  Between the two posts I got confused about which was meant.

So what is actually true for a student striving toward music?  Personally I believe that people can have a drive toward music, but if they don't learn any of the things that have been developed in playing music (technique etc.) they may stay locked up in parts of it, because they can't untangle their bodies so to say.  Admittedly this is a subjective experience.  But your first post writes of student + teacher.   I was stuck on this when it first appeared:

...in every neighborhood and town, every music studio and classroom who has a real and accomplished teacher guiding it

thinking that you were saying as soon as there is a "real and accomplished teacher", any student will excel, and that's why you thought there were "musical geniuses" (accomplished pianists) everywhere - simply by dint of good teaching.  Then I thought that I didn't really know what you were saying.  Which is why I'm asking now.

[lloyd_cdb]

I take people literally, and I'm learning that sometimes they say the opposite of what they think in order to make a point, by saying the opposite...  

Then I thought that I didn't really know what you were saying.  Which is why I'm asking now.

This is why the internet needs a sarcasm font style.  I vote for backwards italics.

[brendan765]

There is other music that exists beyond those two categories.  In classical music, do you really think every composer is remembered?  Clearly some of them sucked.  The artists you mention are starting to become the 'older' trends in music. They are starting to plateau just like classical, jazz, classic rock, punk rock... every other category you could possibly imagine.  I almost purely listen to classical, simply because I enjoy it the most.  That doesn't mean I think every category sucks or is 'dumb'.

The world is technological.  Limiting art to pens and staff paper is like saying the only artistic writers are ones that write in longhand or even a typewriter. Umm... computers exist for a reason, that's just ridiculously ignorant.  One of the most modern trends in music is EDM.  Google Electronic Dance Music, and some of the first things you'll see are 'investors getting involved'.  That would mean it's a growing musical category.  It involves no staff paper, but can be incredibly complex and adheres to musical theory.  Magically, it is only created on computers.

Music is constantly evolving.  While there are definitely artists in the EDM category that are bland and not creative, there are plenty of artists that incorporate music theory and fit your conceptual definition of "intelligent".  My brother is a musician and classically trained.  While I don't necessarily love his music, he makes some fascinating EDM pieces that adhere to musical theory. He's involved in promoting the industry and his pieces can often be long/evolving/concerto-like.  I'm pretty sure that means there is music that is "new, [creative], leaves people flabergasted", and is artistic. 

Take your head out of the sand.

Put your head up your ass cause you're a fool.

[lloyd_cdb]

Put your head up your ass cause you're a fool.

So you're actively encouraging me to put my head up my ass so that I won't acknowledge or address aspects you've failed to mention, just to claim intellectual superiority?

Issues like:

Non-composers have a negative impact on the art because they are stupid but popular?
Non-composers Beiber and Wayne are "market stealers" since the non-famous composers in the background aren't the famous ones?
Music is changing even if you fail to mention or recognize it?
Composing music in styles that you failed to mention or don't appreciate makes someone an idiot?
Musical theory based compositions can only exist on pen and paper?
Every piece of EDM doesn't adhere to theory, isn't complex and/or intelligent?

Since you are one of the few "intelligent" people around, feel free to respond in a way that actually contributes to a thread that you started instead of responding to one sentence in my post. If you'd like, I can quote your comments throughout the thread and edit the location of my sentences that might make it easier to understand? Would that be creative, and would it make me "intelligent"?  I'm really hoping for your approval even though I don't compose.

[soitainly]

 Even though I tend to agree with Brendan's premise that classical music needs to do more to encourage composing, the idea that performers of the basic repertoire aren't worth anything artistically is not true.

 The problem in my opinion is that the academic route for most classical musicians does little to encourage improvisation or composition. I am not saying that all classical students should have to "pass" a composing or improvisation class, but that it should be an integral part of any music making course of study. To churn out legions of players who have great skill at their instrument but who have little chance of success seems a bit shortsighted. Even if only 10% have any real gift for composing, I wonder how many never try because they aren't encouraged, or are to busy learning new pieces each semester to have the time for it.

 All that being said, we still need the popular performers playing Bach, Beethoven, Mozart ect. because it is great music and demands to be heard. Another way of looking at it is what if pianists were forced to play new music or their own compositions, there would be a lot of substandard concerts.

[brendan765]

Even though I tend to agree with Brendan's premise that classical music needs to do more to encourage composing, the idea that performers of the basic repertoire aren't worth anything artistically is not true.

 The problem in my opinion is that the academic route for most classical musicians does little to encourage improvisation or composition. I am not saying that all classical students should have to "pass" a composing or improvisation class, but that it should be an integral part of any music making course of study. To churn out legions of players who have great skill at their instrument but who have little chance of success seems a bit shortsighted. Even if only 10% have any real gift for composing, I wonder how many never try because they aren't encouraged, or are to busy learning new pieces each semester to have the time for it.

 All that being said, we still need the popular performers playing Bach, Beethoven, Mozart ect. because it is great music and demands to be heard. Another way of looking at it is what if pianists were forced to play new music or their own compositions, there would be a lot of substandard concerts.
[Yeah we should learn the repertoire first, but then compose or own new music...just like many of the past good pianists composed their own works after they learned the repertoire...such as Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Mozart, Liszt, Resphigi, Shumann, and a ton of them...I write music just as complex as these guys, but all together it's completely different .

[lostinidlewonder]

Put your head up your ass cause you're a fool.

Is it just me or is this troll getting away with more than he should be allowed?

[p2u_]

Is it just me or is this troll getting away with more than he should be allowed?

No, it's not just you. I've reported him and his many colleagues here more than once but to no effect. I don't want to risk RSI by all that mouse clicking, so I'll just stop using the "report-to-moderator" link.

Paul

[lloyd_cdb]

Is it just me or is this troll getting away with more than he should be allowed?

TBH, I actually enjoy the one sentence answers sometimes.  Gives me an excuse to write another essay.