Flat, flyaway fingers

[princess_bear]

I have one student, a 10 year old girl, that doesn't seem to be able to grasp the concept of playing with a rounded hand shape.  She's only had six lessons so far, but every week I tell her the same thing,"Play with curved fingers" and I demonstrate, and "Don't let your fingers be that far from the keys" and I demonstrate keeping them close to the keys.  But... she doesn't seem to get it.

Any help for her questions/issues?  Here's just a sampling of what I dealt with at her lesson today.

1)  "WHY do I have to play with curved fingers?"--I've already tried explaining that it will be easier to play more difficult songs if she plays them with curved fingers, and that it looks prettier.  Anyone have any BETTER answer than those, that a 10 year old girl who has only had six lessons will understand?

2)  Flyaway fingers--This ties into Issue #1, I guess, but that's more about flat fingers, and this one is more about how she's holding the fingers that AREN'T playing.  She holds them up in the air, pointing at the fallboard.  How do I get her to tame those fingers?

3)  Collapsing joints--I got the feeling today that her fingers are just not that strong, so her joints collapse.  Would something like silly putty or a stress ball help?

[j_menz]

She's a ten year old with 6 lessons under her belt.

In 1 and 2, you appear to be trying to instil technique which, as yet, has no actual function ("looks prettier", indeed!).  Don't sweat it, and certainly don't (as you appear to be doing) obsess over it. It may correct itself, or do so under gentle encouragement as she gets to a point in her studies where it actually does make a difference.

As for "weak fingers" - again, give her a bit of time to use them and build them up. Her regular playing should be more than adequate for that and  you can reassess later iff there still appears to be an issue.

[princess_bear]

In 1 and 2, you appear to be trying to instil technique which, as yet, has no actual function

I don't know how much teaching experience you have, but it seems like you believe that learning to play with curved fingers is not important from the very beginning, and can be learned later.  I have done a LOT of reading about teaching beginners, and one of the biggest issues that I have seen mentioned is a failure to teach proper technique, including playing with proper hand position.  So... maybe I AM harping on it a little bit too much, but out of all of my students (who range in age from 5.5 to 12), she's the only one who has this problem, and I want to figure out how to help her with that.

Maybe I should be asking... do problems like this truly resolve themselves over time?  Because honestly, I don't see how they will, without proper training, reminders, etc.

[p2u_]

I don't know how much teaching experience you have, but

If he's a genius teacher, then one year could even be enough to say what he said and still be right about it. We are on the Internet and anybody can claim any amount of experience.

I think he's right, though: it could very well be too early for THAT particular student to focus on such technical things that have no meaning to her. My advice: wait for keypeg's comments on how to approach this problem at this stage.

Paul

[j_menz]

it seems like you believe that learning to play with curved fingers is not important from the very beginning, and can be learned later. 

It can be learned on the way. You don't need to get it perfect from the start, just keep heading in the right direction.  Right at the start, there is no obvious advantage to it for the student; as it starts to have advantages, you can then get them to feel what they are, what that feels like,  and to develop the right approach for them  in line with that. Otherwise, you are trying to teach movements that do not make sense to the pupil and that sets a bad precedent.

There is also no absolute right degree of curvature that fits everyone. How are you going to judge what is right for your student at this point?

[ajspiano]

kids care about the "now" - your not going to see her caring about more difficult songs that she'll learn later. Get her to care about what you are doing right NOW, and present a real tangible reason to do it the right way.

Aside from that, technique is a gradually developed thing. You need to allow it to be refined by real musical examples.

Case in point, "fly away fingers" ABSOLUTELY will not happen if that finger is required to play a note at the same time.

So for example, suppose you have a figure, CDEFG.. that can be played slowly with fly away fingers, but if you want to play fast and comfortable you can't.. so you need to teach those notes to be played quickly - even if they will not ultimately be played quickly in your piece of music. This is done by first playing the notes ALL AT ONCE, - then by playing them quickly one after another..   then by swapping between the two.

This can not be done as a "you must learn to do it this way because I say so" - she must have a reason to try. Just ask her, can you play it quickly? can you play it slower? loud? soft? (this gets her to do repetitions anyway. She will invariably have trouble with the "quickly" and that allows you to say "hey, try playing them together first.. then one after another."

Don't push this, it doesn't have to be fixed in one lesson, it will get better over time and numerous musical shapes and figures. She may only be able to manage 2 notes at a time , not 5 as described above.

This also can't be taught in such a way that your student will end up thinking that all we do to get better is play things faster. This is an initial "trick" to help learn small sections, which we will then practice at a sensible speed after acquiring a better movement pattern.

...and to finish, the whole idea here may just not be that relevant to her until you work on something that is actually harder.

Read this for a more indepth explanation, do them yourself first - EXTENSIVELY - before you try to show a 10 year old.
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.9
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.10
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.11

......

All that considered, you may also do just as well to focus on learning more musical concepts and see if it fixes itself over the next month or 2 before trying to tackle it more seriously.

..plus..

Its not as if fairly flattened fingers are totally wrong, depending on the person and context. Its a physical balance you want, not a a specific curve.

[foxtot]

Hi! I'm new here, so I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this conversation. This is an ongoing issue that I see with my students, particularly if they are nervous, brand-new to the piano, or lacking muscle tone in their fingers. I have also noticed that a lot of students feel it is necessary to "strike" the keys rather than press in. I have done a few things to counteract what I have termed "finger gymnastics":

1.) Ongoing reminders. "No finger gymnastics!" and of course they giggle... and whether it does any good or not depends on how how determined they are to fix that problem.

2.) I have given them exercises to work on legato notes, with their fingers "glued" to the keys. Slowly, carefully, five-finger scales, encouraging them to press in and feel it fall rather than hit it like their fingers are hammers.

3.) I have gone so far as to tape a students fingers to the piano. This has to be done with the right kind of student - this one is game for anything and she thought it was hilarious. "Mom! She taped my fingers to the keys!" "Oh good, that might actually help!" came the response. It wasn't done out of frustration, but the little girl (she's only six, so likely much smaller than your 10 year old student) actually requested today that I tape her fingers down again because she was getting so frustrated. I just reminded her to relax her fingers and keep her spider fingers up.

4.) I have also noticed that student who tend to have flat, tense fingers also struggle with correct fingering on the notes and hit the note with whatever finger happens to land there. This is where I get them to slow down again. But anyway, that was a side note.... the next thing I do is watch to see whether their wrist is hitting to wood beneath the keys or if their shoulders are tense. If this one little girl I referenced before has particularly tense shoulders, her entire arm and hand positioning will reflect that tension. So I remind her to take a deep breath, sit up straight, keep her shoulders relaxed and square, and to play slowly and carefully.

5.) I don't know how "hands on" you are comfortable with being when you are teaching, but I have also kept my hands on their wrists (gently) and pulled the wrists upward and keep them held there while they play. That also seems to help, but, again, it depends on the student.

Also, you say the knuckles "collapse"? I wonder if she is double-jointed? Mine did that on occasion, and I think maybe your suggestion of a stress ball might help... I had to develop really good technique before my fingers stopped doing that. Perhaps encourage her to push her fingers forward so she is playing right on the tips and maximizing the use of her finger muscles.... maybe she is playing too far back on the pads of her fingers.
I do agree with you that technique is very important, but I have to add that if she enjoys the music and you emphasize the musicality of the piece rather than technique (though I do remind my students of proper technique each lesson if it is an ongoing issue) she will likely stick with it a little more... since she is older, I hesitate to push too much in the way of technique rather than music appreciation and enjoyment, as she may end up feeling like she can't do it and give up. Good luck!

[outin]

I have suffered from tension and even injury caused by overcurling, so I could not agree more about what's already said. Due to my handshape I cannot really play with "hold a ball" shape hand and when I was taught that it ended up bad. I have had to accept that my playing doesn't look pretty that way  
For some people it takes time to find the balance inside and the right idea of how something should feel, it doesn't help much to just tell them to make their body look a certain way.

[ajspiano]

I have suffered from tension and even injury caused by overcurling, so I could not agree more about what's already said. Due to my handshape I cannot really play with "hold a ball" shape hand and when I was taught that it ended up bad. I have had to accept that my playing doesn't look pretty that way 
For some people it takes time to find the balance inside and the right idea of how something should feel, it doesn't help much to just tell them to make their body look a certain way.

Personally I think even if the "hold a ball" shape is right for you being told to do it that way it nuts. It instills the idea that there is a absolute shape that applies to all students and can be visually attained rather than the correct, balanced shape of the finger "felt" position.

[ajspiano]

Otherwise, you are trying to teach movements that do not make sense to the pupil and that sets a bad precedent.

Indeed - one of my 5 yr olds said to me yesterday after an instruction re fingerings, "but that doesn't make it sound any different"

I'd add to this thread that if that's your students reasoning I wouldn't be in a big hurry to overrule that kind of thinking without a REALLY good reason.

[maitea]

Hi,

Many things here! First, I'd like to point out more the psychological fact that she's 10, and is challenging you. That is part of her age, her character is developing and she's not anymore buying what is  thrown upon her Questioning and challenging the adult thinking, is a new form of autonomy and power. (Maybe. I don't know her, but sounds like it!) You are not convincing her with "it looks prettier" (maybe it doesn't to her eyes) and at the moment due to the easier pieces she's playing she gets away by playing her way. Now, arrived to that point, I like ajspiano suggestions very much. Challenge her means, and show her in a practical way, that the way she's playing at the moment has limitations. Also, you could also watch some pianists play (though careful with the examples you chose! . Ultimately if there is still a strong power challenge, I would talk to her parents if she continues to be close minded and doesn't want to be guided. It is another form of "misbehaviour", though I commend her for not buying anything and wanting the correct explanations. As someone else's example, if it doesn't make a difference, why should one do anything?

On the other hand, I believe a lot of this happens (sometimes) because we go into playing the scores, the pieces, a bit too quickly, and for the student the "what" (the piece) is more important than the "how", sound picture and gesture are not one, they just want to play the notes, that is enough. I have youngsters doing small "games" (little musical units linked to a gesture, individual notes,stacatto,legato, leaps, thirds all linked to a sound picture with imagination: the snake, the rabbit, the aunt etc with  it's own pianistic gesture and without scores. There is a story to the notes/gesture they play, and I need to be very proactive to keep them engaged, but the focus is into getting those pianistic gestures ready and secure, how and what are one same thing. They improvise around the motifs, so there is freedom and imagination, but I'm very hands on with posture, wrist looseness, playing deep into the keys, and shaping the hand and fingers naturally. I realize this is a very short way of explaining but it works well, in my experience.

Maite

[pairra]

I would suggest gentle, ongoing reminders - one or two times per lesson. And then just be patient. It could take several months for her fingers to be the way you want.

Or, you could just give up for the moment and tackle the issue in a few months. By that time, it might have corrected itself.

If your student is stubborn, constant reminders (she'll hear it is as nagging) could prolong the issue. Especially if she's challenging you.

[ppianista]

I have done a LOT of reading about teaching beginners, and one of the biggest issues that I have seen mentioned is a failure to teach proper technique, including playing with proper hand position. 

But what is "proper technique", in the first place? It is NOT a collection of patterns that count for all students and should therefore be strictly observed by them. But it is the art of moving as naturally and as economically as possible. It's the art of doing less, of letting it happen.

So, I think, we should give the beginners space to find out by their own how it feels to move naturally on the keyboard. What teachers should really be careful about is to show them where they do TOO MUCH, where they are too tight, move their heads, shoulders, arms when they only need to move their fingers and wrists etc. Because from there result bad habits that are hard to break later on.