Heavy fingers, flat-out refusals, and practice-time incentives

[foxtot]

Hello! I am brand new on this board, but I was seeking other piano teachers with whom to connect. I have been teaching piano for almost 10 years and I have had probably over 150 students in that time, as I taught around 45 students/week for a few years and have lived in three different towns. This year, however, I am feeling a little frustrated by some issues I have been facing:

1.) I have never, in all 10 years, had a student flat-out refuse to do something. This year, I have two young boys (seven and eight) who have crossed their arms and said "no" to doing something. Let me clarify first: I'm not a super strict teacher. Yes, I expect results from my students, but mostly because I tailor each lesson to each student, and I have grown accustomed to receiving results since my techniques have really worked well. What I mean by "not strict" is that I try to use positive language, start each critique with encouragement ("You did so well with your timing this week! I think we can work on making those notes a little more legato"), and if I feel push-back, I try to make it into something enjoyable or even a game. But never have I had anyone just sit there and say "No."

A few weeks ago, a student of mine who is generally able to be reasoned with but is not particularly the easiest student I've ever had, flat-out refused to count out loud. "I can't do it. And I'm not going to try."
Well, how about I count with you?
No.
Can we clap it first, and then work on that timing?
No.
Well, I can count it, and then you can count this section. Only a few bars at a time. No need to rush, just take your time.
No.

After about five minutes, I finally said that his timing in this piece (and actually every piece, he is three years into piano and has excellent potential, but his timing in every piece is all over the place) would really benefit from counting out loud, and that since we had tried all kinds of other things, this was really the only thing left, and it was an excellent skill to learn if we wanted to tell the same story as the composer wanted to tell through his music. He crossed his arms and refused to talk to me. Honestly, I was about done...... and I'm not sure if I handled it well enough, but I said that he had two options: We could end the lesson and we could discuss with his mom his participation in lessons, or he could count out loud. He got up and went downstairs.

He has counted out loud several times before. Overall, he is very oppositional if he has his mind set on something and it is very frustrating to deal with. Does anyone else have any other ideas? I did have a chat with his mom, and he was very cooperative the next week... it isn't so much a confidence issue because, again, he has done it before and has done it since... but there's another boy who crossed his arms, and smacked them down on the piano when I asked him to repeat a scale so I could make sure he was comfortable with it before sending him home. It had completely new ideas, I said, and I didn't want him to get home and be unsure of how to perform the "tuck unders" and "cross overs". Fortunately, this other boy did repeat that scale after a few times of asking him why he didn't want to do it etc... but it wasn't an unreasonable request. I told him I really appreciated him giving it that effort.

I'm not sure what has changed, that students flat-out refuse to do something? I've never run into this - any thoughts as to how to make that a little easier? They are never unreasonable requests... and yes I've had students complain, but never out-right refuse.

Anyway....


2.) I have another student who cannot seem to play soft, legato notes. Her go-to dynamic is forte... very stiff fingers, and she strikes each note like she is angry with it. She is starting Grade 2 RCM and is a very driven student; she isn't angry with the music, but I have been working with her to "feel" the music and listen to what it's saying when it says "p" or even "mp", but her hands will not relax. Any particular technique books you have found to help with this? She tends to pound on each note, and it's just not conducive to the lullabies she is wanting to play this year

3.) Just looking for what other teachers do for practice-time incentives. I have done practice records, depending on the student, occasional rewards if it's warranted (maybe once or twice a year kind of thing)... but I have two students (sisters) who come and will not practice. Their parents are tight on money and scrounge up enough to pay for lessons (I don't charge that much, but I'm sure you know what I mean), but while they enjoy the idea of music lessons, they cannot be bothered to put any effort in at home. Then they're frustrated when they have a song for six, seven, eight weeks, because they won't even put it hands together. They always have excuses... busy, forgot, can't seem to remember at a good time...
-I've gone through their daily routine and had them pick the best time of day, set an alarm, and encouraged them to practice then.
-One of the girls suggested she wake up early and practice in the morning (that didn't last lol)
-Practice records go unfilled
-I've talked to the parents, and they say "Well, if they want to keep taking lessons, they better practice!" and then the girls look scared and make empty promises...and the parents never do anything about it.
-The latest thing I've tried, and it is a last resort, is making it a competition between the two of them, but only because they're older and I know them well. Whoever practices the most in the next so many weeks (and they must practice a minimum of 4 days per week to even qualify) will get a prize. It will probably be a slurpee or something small like that... but I said that when they begin to practice, they will feel a sense of accomplishment and really see improvement in their music. They came last week and both practiced three or four days, which was a 300%-400% improvement   . . . and they felt so proud of themselves and were excited to tell me all about the accomplishments they had made in their pieces.

Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that will be short-lived... what do you use as a practice incentive? Especially for students who get to lesson and go "oh, I forgot" (again)...?
Thanks in advance! Sorry for the exorbitantly long post.

[ajspiano]

1) - did you ask him why he didn't want to?

Seems to me that the best way to get him to do it is to first find the barrier, rather than just kind of stand in the dark at potential ways to make it more comfortable for him.

I often find myself asking students to do this too, and I've not had anyone refuse - however I do remember absolutely HATING this when I was a young student. I mean really really HATING it. So it doesnt surprise me that someone might refuse. It made me really uncomfortable, I felt quite embarrassed counting infront of my teacher... I'm not sure why I felt that, but that's what happened.

Maybe you could do some lessons that are heavily focused on better understanding of beats, note groupings, time signatures etc..   see if he can easily identify what notes are on the 3rd beat of the bar say? Maybe he doesnt want to count because he isnt really sure what to do and doesnt want to screw it up infront of you?

2) I have a few processes that I use for this kind of thing but I'm not going to explain them for fear of them being to severely misinterpreted..

What I will suggest is that you take 1 single note and get her to experiement with playing it using a series of different movements.
 - finger only
 - wrist only
 - forearm rotation
 - push/pull from shoulder
 - combinations of the above

..and discuss what they feel like, ask questions and experiement on things such as "can you play lots of notes quickly with that movement?" or "which movement is it easier to play ff with?"

This should give you (and her) a better understanding of which elements shes over or underdoing and give her an idea of the bigger picture of just how many variations on movement are possible.

Also, if you have a digital keyboard, you can try to get her to play on it with it switched off.. this will force her to make better use of musical intention because she will have to imagine the sound she's making (no cues from the actual sound).

[foxtot]

1) - did you ask him why he didn't want to?

I did, and he said "I don't want to." and "I can't do it." Well, the first might be true... he didn't want to... but the second, he can do it, he had done it before, and he has done it since. So I'm not sure where his attitude about different things is coming from :/ I try to be patient, but he can be trying.

It is possible he didn't feel confident and didn't want to embarrass himself. I suppose I had somewhat dismissed that because he had done it before, but it was a more challenging piece.

Also, thanks for the tips re: heavy fingers! I love the idea of the keyboard, but unfortunately I have only my acoustic piano (and some toddler toys - don't think they have the same feel )

Now I'm curious to know what your alternative techniques are, because I employ all kinds of different techniques, but I'm sure whatever you do with your students works well

[p2u_]

@ foxtot

A kind request to you: could you please change the continuous bold font under "1)" to italics or some other font maybe? I don't know about the others, but it hurts my eyes and it is rather "shouty". Thanks.

Paul

[foxtot]

@ foxtot

A kind request to you: could you please change the continuous bold font under "1)" to italics or some other font maybe? I don't know about the others, but it hurts my eyes and it is rather "shouty". Thanks.

Paul

I can indeed. I will see if I can do it while I'm mobile... I tried using different font colors to segregate the questions and make it easier to glance over, but in my inexperience with the forum I couldn't figure out how to do that. My best alternative was to change the font styles - I can change it back.

[p2u_]

I did, and he said "I don't want to." and "I can't do it." Well, the first might be true... he didn't want to... but the second, he can do it, he had done it before, and he has done it since.

Depends on how you interpret what he is really saying. Maybe he means: "I can't do it BECAUSE I don't want to do it" with the underlying hint of "Convince me this is good for me"?

Paul

[ajspiano]

Now I'm curious to know what your alternative techniques are, because I employ all kinds of different techniques, but I'm sure whatever you do with your students works well

If you consider what I did post about movement experimentation, and also consider that as someone of relative experience I (or another teacher) can point someone toward the right movement immediately rather than have to stab in the dark until we fluke it...  ..you may end up with a rough idea of what I might do, and what I meant here.

If I knew your student personally, I may be able to identify a precise component that is missing and point the exercise toward that exactly - if you student has no arm action for example, you can ask them to flat out STOP using their fingers to play as a temporary exercise. This will obviously not work very well ultimately, but it will force the student to activate the arm in that moment and discover a new way to move.

For this to work really well though the teacher needs to give quality feedback and be able to identify if the student has found the movement intended by the exercise..  and be able to gauge how well the student will receive the exercise to begin with anyway. Sometime things like that can be really beneficial, while other times they can confuse the issue further and a different approach is required..   

I don't generally like talking about those kinds of activities too much in this environment because if applied they require that someone in the room really knows whats going on and has a good gauge of where things are going technically and can continually point the student there through a series of steps..    I know what I'm doing and why when I do something like this with a student..  I don't know if someone on the receiving end of a forum post knows what I mean and I don't know if its appropriate for the specific student.

Those kinds of approaches and instructions are things where I spend hours fooling around with all possible interpretations of the words I choose before I use them with a student - so that I can gauge what happens when the student tries, - I know what they are feeling based on the visual result and can then refine it appropriately...

I doubt that such things are that unique to me, but stuff that i do, i have experience using and they have the potential to create problems as well as solve them if used at the wrong time or in the wrong way... And while I'm quite comfortable using them in the context of a lesson, explaining how and when to use them without an exact example is not something I'm practiced in at all and I'm not entirely sure its even possible, there is an enormous amount of variables to consider..

Hmm.. Teaching teaching.. Whole other level..  not that i mean to imply you require that..

[pianoplunker]

Hello! I am brand new on this board, but I was seeking other piano teachers with whom to connect. I have been teaching piano for almost 10 years and I have had probably over 150 students in that time, as I taught around 45 students/week for a few years and have lived in three different towns. This year, however, I am feeling a little frustrated by some issues I have been facing:

1.) I have never, in all 10 years, had a student flat-out refuse to do something. This year, I have two young boys (seven and eight) who have crossed their arms and said "no" to doing something. Let me clarify first: I'm not a super strict teacher. Yes, I expect results from my students, but mostly because I tailor each lesson to each student, and I have grown accustomed to receiving results since my techniques have really worked well. What I mean by "not strict" is that I try to use positive language, start each critique with encouragement ("You did so well with your timing this week! I think we can work on making those notes a little more legato"), and if I feel push-back, I try to make it into something enjoyable or even a game. But never have I had anyone just sit there and say "No."

A few weeks ago, a student of mine who is generally able to be reasoned with but is not particularly the easiest student I've ever had, flat-out refused to count out loud. "I can't do it. And I'm not going to try."
Well, how about I count with you?
No.
Can we clap it first, and then work on that timing?
No.
Well, I can count it, and then you can count this section. Only a few bars at a time. No need to rush, just take your time.
No.

Hi, I am not a teacher, but just a student who remembers counting out loud while trying to learn piano. It feels like counting out loud is not playing music.  Counting , absolutely always but I never felt comfortable doing it out loud. Maybe different approaches are more fun like finger-snapping to recorded music and counting out loud. That was an approach that helped me understand why the count is important.  

[ragnarok]

A few weeks ago, a student of mine who is generally able to be reasoned with but is not particularly the easiest student I've ever had, flat-out refused to count out loud. "I can't do it. And I'm not going to try."
Well, how about I count with you?

This is just an idea, but maybe it's not the counting issue at all (or just a little of it). If a kid is acting like that it sounds to me like they're really upset, and not by what's going on in a piano lesson. Maybe he had a terrible day, or there's something going on at home. And then maybe he's a little insecure about counting and it's the last straw. I have never seen a truly evil kid that does things just to piss the teacher off.  There's always some reason behind it. If it just happened that one day I wouldn't take it very seriously.

He also just might have a behavioral problem. In which case your job is hard, but I wouldn't concentrate so much on why it's counting or whatever that he refuses. Try related exercises - does he refuse those too? You could ask him if he's feeling okay. Whatever he responds will be telling. It's important to be understanding. Kids don't know how to express their feelings like adults do but they usually have very good reasons for them!

[pairra]

1. I remember being asked to count out loud as a kid and I remember hating it with a passion. I can't remember why, but I would get so angry. And as I was brought up to respect adults I couldn't even dream of saying no. I do remember vowing to make my rhythm perfect so my teacher would not have to ask me to count out loud in the first place. And I succeeded with that very quickly... because that's how much I hated it.

Like you, I've taught lots of students, and I've found that for the most part, rhythm issues can correct themselves. I've had to deal with students who literally never practice, but after a few years, they amazingly had pretty good rhythm. So, maybe de-emphasizing rhythm would work?
 
Also, ask the student. Do they care about correct rhythm? If not, you're fighting a losing battle. I came to this realization while trying to get a brooding teenager to use correct fingers. With a minor explosion of emotion, he basically stated he didn't get why it was so important to use the fingerings indicated and he just wanted to use his own. I said "fine!".

I don't bring up fingering ever. But now, two years later, he has decided to use correct fingering on his own. And add dynamics.

2. Perhaps this student just needs to develop her musicality some more? Lots of listening, going to concerts, youtube, ect?

3. No practice incentives, but lots of performance opportunities. I don't harp on students that don't practice. We just practice at their lessons.

Example -
1. play the first line 3x's
2. play the second line 3x's
3. play the first and second lines 3x's
4. play the third line 3x's
5. play the first, second, third line 3x's
6. ect.

Boring as heck! But the student slowly learns how to play the song. And after they've learned it fairly well, then they will at least play it a couple of times per week.

[foxtot]

1. I remember being asked to count out loud as a kid and I remember hating it with a passion. I can't remember why, but I would get so angry. And as I was brought up to respect adults I couldn't even dream of saying no. I do remember vowing to make my rhythm perfect so my teacher would not have to ask me to count out loud in the first place. And I succeeded with that very quickly... because that's how much I hated it.

Like you, I've taught lots of students, and I've found that for the most part, rhythm issues can correct themselves. I've had to deal with students who literally never practice, but after a few years, they amazingly had pretty good rhythm. So, maybe de-emphasizing rhythm would work?
 
Also, ask the student. Do they care about correct rhythm? If not, you're fighting a losing battle. I came to this realization while trying to get a brooding teenager to use correct fingers. With a minor explosion of emotion, he basically stated he didn't get why it was so important to use the fingerings indicated and he just wanted to use his own. I said "fine!".

I don't bring up fingering ever. But now, two years later, he has decided to use correct fingering on his own. And add dynamics.

2. Perhaps this student just needs to develop her musicality some more? Lots of listening, going to concerts, youtube, ect?

3. No practice incentives, but lots of performance opportunities. I don't harp on students that don't practice. We just practice at their lessons.

Example -
1. play the first line 3x's
2. play the second line 3x's
3. play the first and second lines 3x's
4. play the third line 3x's
5. play the first, second, third line 3x's
6. ect.

Boring as heck! But the student slowly learns how to play the song. And after they've learned it fairly well, then they will at least play it a couple of times per week.

Thanks for your input!
re: #1: I've tried different things with him, but like a previous poster mentioned, I do believe it does have a little bit to do with a behavioural issue, especially since I've had other struggles with them not respecting my child, my home, and my space (I teach out of my home and they wait downstairs while not in lesson)... I've noticed a complete disregard of respect to their mother (ie: ordering her to do certain things because they don't want to, etc...) but perhaps de-emphasizing it would make it more of "his" choice, you know?
re: #2: Yup, listening could work well... I encouraged her to pick up the CD for the book, but she doesn't ask her mom for anything that costs money, saying it's too much... so perhaps I'll just mention it to her mom (her mom just paid $100 for a piano exam without blinking an eye - I think she just doesn't want her kids growing up spoiled, so they hear "that's too much" often)
re: #3: I definitely do get them to practice at lessons, including doing the "five times in a row correct" practice technique, which has garnered excellent results. Unfortunately, they grow frustrated and tell me they've had the songs forever. They feel such pride when they do practice, so I wanted to see if there was some way to encourage practicing or find something that works well beyond explaining that the pieces are much more enjoyable to play once they practice them. Anyway, thanks again

[pts1]

Foxtrot

I'm not a teacher, but I have a suspicion that the boy is VERY uncomfortable counting out loud.

For me, it is difficult to "talk" while I play, and I simply don't/can't do it.... its a different coordination or something, and especially if I were having trouble with the piano part, adding vocalization of any type that had to sync with the piano I find difficult... I'm 63 now, and its STILL hard for me and I play concert level repertoire.

So my suggestion would be to simplify it for him and let him play the dominant hand while playing just a single note on the beat with the left... IOW.. essentially "counting" with the left hand while playing the right. Then maybe reverse this... RH taps a note to the beat while LH plays.

This way he can regulate the speed of the "counting" so he's comfortable.

I actually do this myself when encountering a difficult rhythm (or tap it with one hand while other plays).

And once this works, I move to the metronome set on a very slow speed until it all sinks in.

As crazy as it sounds, I feel awkward counting out loud for myself even when alone!

Counting silently, I have no problem with whatsoever!

Strange, huh?

I realize counting out loud is a standard teaching device, but I always had great trouble with it both the doing of it and especially for an "audience".

Then there was singing the melody or parts, and I'd have rather DIED! lol

[pianoplunker]

Foxtrot

I'm not a teacher, but I have a suspicion that the boy is VERY uncomfortable counting out loud.

For me, it is difficult to "talk" while I play, and I simply don't/can't do it.... its a different coordination or something, and especially if I were having trouble with the piano part, adding vocalization of any type that had to sync with the piano I find difficult... I'm 63 now, and its STILL hard for me and I play concert level repertoire.

So my suggestion would be to simplify it for him and let him play the dominant hand while playing just a single note on the beat with the left... IOW.. essentially "counting" with the left hand while playing the right. Then maybe reverse this... RH taps a note to the beat while LH plays.

This way he can regulate the speed of the "counting" so he's comfortable.

I actually do this myself when encountering a difficult rhythm (or tap it with one hand while other plays).

And once this works, I move to the metronome set on a very slow speed until it all sinks in.

As crazy as it sounds, I feel awkward counting out loud for myself even when alone!

Counting silently, I have no problem with whatsoever!

Strange, huh?

I realize counting out loud is a standard teaching device, but I always had great trouble with it both the doing of it and especially for an "audience".

Then there was singing the melody or parts, and I'd have rather DIED! lol

HaHa pts1 post looks like I could have written it.   I just want to add that an excellent reason for a kid to learn the rhythm is playing with others. Perhaps a simple duet would help. I dont think counting out loud ever helped me with rhythm as much as it was difficult and embarassing. But playing duets with my teacher and then doing things like playing cello in the school band went very far for me rhythmically. Also these days, there are CDs which are designed for a piano to play along with it. I havent tried those but there may be something there. The important think to note is that I always LOVED music so I dont require much motivation. Could be the kids in this thread dont like music so much ?  Hard to believe but there are people who really dont like music and thus would have nothing to do with it if their parents didnt press them.