Difficulty with different key signatures

[kakeithewolf]

As it stands, I can only play about 10 or so keys of the 42. The only three I'm good at are G-flat Minor, D-flat Minor, and C-Sharp Major. Learning other keys seems to be of quite a bit of difficulty.

Would anyone happen to know how I could learn how to play other keys with greater ease (Note that I don't plan on touching C Major for a while, it's far too difficult)?

[keypeg]

How do you get 42 keys?

[lostinidlewonder]

Big key chain.

[p2u_]

How do you get 42 keys?

The topic starter most likely intended to write 24.

Paul

[brogers70]

I assume your difficulty is in playing scales rather than in reading. You might try having a look at this. Much easier if a teacher shows you, but worth reading if you have no other option.


https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=9211.0

[kakeithewolf]

How do you get 42 keys?

Major Keys: A Major, B Major, C Major, D Major, E Major, F Major, G Major.

Minor Keys: A Minor, B Minor, C Minor, D Minor, E Minor, F Minor, G Minor

Sharp Major Keys: A-Sharp Major, B-Sharp Major, C-Sharp Major, D-Sharp Major, E-Sharp Major, F-Sharp Major, G-Sharp Major

Sharp Minor Keys:  A-Sharp Minor, B-Sharp Minor, C-Sharp Minor, D-Sharp Minor, E-Sharp Minor, F-Sharp Minor, G-Sharp Minor

Flat Major Keys: A-Flat Major, B-Flat Major, C-Flat Major, D-Flat Major, E-Flat Major, F-Flat Major, G-Flat Major

Flat Minor Keys: A-Flat Minor, B-Flat Minor, C-Flat Minor, D-Flat Minor, E-Flat Minor, F-Flat Minor, and G-Flat Minor.

Despite enharmonic pairs being a problem here, I still use these when composing. And once, all of them when composing.

[kakeithewolf]

I assume your difficulty is in playing scales rather than in reading. You might try having a look at this. Much easier if a teacher shows you, but worth reading if you have no other option.


https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=9211.0

Well, reading, writing, and remembering... Those are my main problems. I need to learn more keys by heart, really.

[sucom]

Hi
I am attaching a print out of the major scales just in case it may help. I also have the harmonic minors but haven't written out the melodic scales yet.

I'm not sure if you are trying to learn how to play them or if you are trying to learn the theory (or both) but these will help if you are trying to play them.

[felipe717]

Major Keys: A Major, B Major, C Major, D Major, E Major, F Major, G Major.

Minor Keys: A Minor, B Minor, C Minor, D Minor, E Minor, F Minor, G Minor

Sharp Major Keys: A-Sharp Major, B-Sharp Major, C-Sharp Major, D-Sharp Major, E-Sharp Major, F-Sharp Major, G-Sharp Major

Sharp Minor Keys:  A-Sharp Minor, B-Sharp Minor, C-Sharp Minor, D-Sharp Minor, E-Sharp Minor, F-Sharp Minor, G-Sharp Minor

Flat Major Keys: A-Flat Major, B-Flat Major, C-Flat Major, D-Flat Major, E-Flat Major, F-Flat Major, G-Flat Major

Flat Minor Keys: A-Flat Minor, B-Flat Minor, C-Flat Minor, D-Flat Minor, E-Flat Minor, F-Flat Minor, and G-Flat Minor.

Despite enharmonic pairs being a problem here, I still use these when composing. And once, all of them when composing.

I think that a few of these keys don't exist. "C-flat Minor"?? What is its key signature? '-' And I've never heard about "F-Flat Minor", among other keys listed there.
If you take the sharp key signatures, the maximum sharps it can have is 7. The same for the flat key signatures. It sums 15 possible key signature (counting with no sharps/flats). For each key signature, it can be major or minor. So, I think there are 30 different keys...
WITH SHARPS:
C major / A minor
G major / E minor
D major / B minor
A major / F-Sharp minor
E major / C-Sharp minor
B major / G-Sharp minor
F-Sharp major / D-Sharp minor
C-Sharp major / A-Sharp minor

WITH FLATS:
C major / A minor
F major / D minor
B-Flat major / G minor
E-Flat major / C minor
A-Flat major / F minor
D-Flat major / B-Flat minor
G-Flat major / E-Flat minor
C-Flat major / A-Flat minor

For what I counted, there are 30 possible keys... '-' Of course, there are those called "Theoretical Keys", made by the continuation of the circle of ascending and descending fifths. But for what I know they're almost never used... :x

[kakeithewolf]

I think that a few of these keys don't exist. "C-flat Minor"?? What is its key signature? '-' And I've never heard about "F-Flat Minor", among other keys listed there.
If you take the sharp key signatures, the maximum sharps it can have is 7. The same for the flat key signatures. It sums 15 possible key signature (counting with no sharps/flats). For each key signature, it can be major or minor. So, I think there are 30 different keys...
WITH SHARPS:
C major / A minor
G major / E minor
D major / B minor
A major / F-Sharp minor
E major / C-Sharp minor
B major / G-Sharp minor
F-Sharp major / D-Sharp minor
C-Sharp major / A-Sharp minor

WITH FLATS:
C major / A minor
F major / D minor
B-Flat major / G minor
E-Flat major / C minor
A-Flat major / F minor
D-Flat major / B-Flat minor
G-Flat major / E-Flat minor
C-Flat major / A-Flat minor

For what I counted, there are 30 possible keys... '-' Of course, there are those called "Theoretical Keys", made by the continuation of the circle of ascending and descending fifths. But for what I know they're almost never used... :x

The 42 keys are the thirty you listed in addition to the twelve theoretical keys. Situations can arise where they are more practical that not, but sometimes, I just prefer music written in them.

[j_menz]

Of course, there are those called "Theoretical Keys", made by the continuation of the circle of ascending and descending fifths. But for what I know they're almost never used... :x

As the actual key signature, that is true, but as a modulation using accidentals, they crop up from time to time. If you're playing Alkan, they crop up every 2 bars!

[teran]

Play the Hammerklavier imo

[kakeithewolf]

Play the Hammerklavier imo

'Twould be a good piece of advice... Were I able to play ANY songs.

[teran]

In all seriousness, learning scales is pretty straightforward.

Figure out the fingering for each one (an example would be the C Major 123 1234 1/5 in the ight hand, which encompasses a large number of scales), and take it really slowly until your hand gets used to it. Then gradually speed it up.

That's really all there is to it. The only key to learning is doing it again and again, which is pretty dry when you're on your own, which is why having a teacher go "AGAIN!" can be somewhat helpful.

[slobone]

As the actual key signature, that is true, but as a modulation using accidentals, they crop up from time to time. If you're playing Alkan, they crop up every 2 bars!

In Chopin also you often find yourself playing a whole section with a lot of accidentals that could have been avoided if he'd just changed the friggin key signature. And also enharmonic accidentals (flats in a sharp key or vice versa).

[kakeithewolf]

In all seriousness, learning scales is pretty straightforward.

Figure out the fingering for each one (an example would be the C Major 123 1234 1/5 in the ight hand, which encompasses a large number of scales), and take it really slowly until your hand gets used to it. Then gradually speed it up.

That's really all there is to it. The only key to learning is doing it again and again, which is pretty dry when you're on your own, which is why having a teacher go "AGAIN!" can be somewhat helpful.

I kind of meant, "I don't know the keys in any key signature save for a few".

THAT's my roadblock.

[slobone]

^^^At some point you just have to sit down and learn them. That's not a roadblock, it's a speed bump.

[kakeithewolf]

Sorry, typed the wrong word.

[pianoplunker]

As it stands, I can only play about 10 or so keys of the 42. The only three I'm good at are G-flat Minor, D-flat Minor, and C-Sharp Major. Learning other keys seems to be of quite a bit of difficulty.

Would anyone happen to know how I could learn how to play other keys with greater ease (Note that I don't plan on touching C Major for a while, it's far too difficult)?

Learn theory to understand how scales are structured. The key sigs make much more sense when you understand why there are flats or sharps.  Fingering of scales is something to be found in many technique books or on the internet. In my opinion, Hanon is a very practical resource for learning scale fingerings.

[kakeithewolf]

Learn theory to understand how scales are structured. The key sigs make much more sense when you understand why there are flats or sharps.  Fingering of scales is something to be found in many technique books or on the internet. In my opinion, Hanon is a very practical resource for learning scale fingerings.

Good idea. Thanks.

[keypeg]

In Chopin also you often find yourself playing a whole section with a lot of accidentals that could have been avoided if he'd just changed the friggin key signature. And also enharmonic accidentals (flats in a sharp key or vice versa).

I think that at his time he was stuck with conventions that didn't allow him things that later composers did.  Same with meter.

[outin]

In Chopin also you often find yourself playing a whole section with a lot of accidentals that could have been avoided if he'd just changed the friggin key signature. And also enharmonic accidentals (flats in a sharp key or vice versa).

I can never remember the key signature when reading, so I wish everything was just written in either C major or A minor adding all those accidentals 

[j_menz]

I can never remember the key signature when reading, so I wish everything was just written in either C major or A minor adding all those accidentals 

There is a vast array of twentieth century plinkers out there to satify your wish.

[teran]

I kind of meant, "I don't know the keys in any key signature save for a few".

THAT's my roadblock.

Well you know what a major/minor scale is supposed to sound like right?

Start on any key and just figure it out.

[kakeithewolf]

Well you know what a major/minor scale is supposed to sound like right?

Start on any key and just figure it out.

I only started up with music about 4 months ago. I only learned about tonality about two months ago.

[timothy42b]

As the actual key signature, that is true, but as a modulation using accidentals, they crop up from time to time. If you're playing Alkan, they crop up every 2 bars!

7 sharps and 7 flats is not the maximum you can have.

Playing wind band literature I've run into more flats.  It isn't really that common, but you do sometimes see 8 flats and have to remember Bbb.  I understand it happens in the symphonic setting as well. 

There's a reason for it.  8 flats is Db minor.  It's easier to play in E, but that would be wrong.  (although in the famous bassoon solo part, I think it does go to E on the repeat strain) 

[teran]

I only started up with music about 4 months ago. I only learned about tonality about two months ago.

That's long enough to recognise the sound of a major scale and a minor scale isn't it?

It's just an 8 note sequence that has the same intervals whatever note you start on, so if you start on say G, you apply the same intervals as you would to a C# scale and you get the same scale.

It's just a case of working them out and constantly practising. Doesn't this site have a list of major/minor scales that you can print out as sheet music?

[slobone]

7 sharps and 7 flats is not the maximum you can have.

Playing wind band literature I've run into more flats.  It isn't really that common, but you do sometimes see 8 flats and have to remember Bbb.  I understand it happens in the symphonic setting as well. 

There's a reason for it.  8 flats is Db minor.  It's easier to play in E, but that would be wrong.  (although in the famous bassoon solo part, I think it does go to E on the repeat strain) 

It's true that you sometimes see double flats and double sharps, especially in modulations. But are they ever used in key signatures?

[j_menz]

It's true that you sometimes see double flats and double sharps, especially in modulations. But are they ever used in key signatures?

I hadn't considered other classes of instruments. They aren't used for the piano, but I would imagine they would have to be for transposing instruments (mostly woodwind and brass).

[timothy42b]

It's true that you sometimes see double flats and double sharps, especially in modulations. But are they ever used in key signatures?

Oh yes.  I used to play in a German style wind ensemble, and while not common we did see music with double flats in key signatures. 

I have never seen a double sharp, and am not sure why you would ever need it.  The double flat thing is easy to understand.  Adding three flats makes a major into a minor.  Add 3 flats to C major, you get Eb major, which is also C minor.  So any key with 5 or more flats will need double flats in the signature when it goes minor. 

[slobone]

I have never seen a double sharp, and am not sure why you would ever need it.  

Because of modulations. Not many pieces are written in D# minor, for example -- Eb minor is usually more convenient. But suppose you have a piece in B major, then you modulate to F# major, followed by D# minor. The leading tone of D# minor has to be written as C double sharp [which has its own symbol that I don't know how to insert here], not just plain D. Pianists generally get used to this fairly quickly.

Why not just change the key signature to Eb minor? The usual reason would be that the modulation is just too short to be worth changing key signatures, although some composers like Chopin can write a whole long section in a new key without changing the original key signature.

[j_menz]

The leading tone of D# minor has to be written as C double sharp [which has its own symbol that I don't know how to insert here], not just plain D.

Cx is the shorthand I use.  There are also (rarely) triple sharps and flats (F#x and Bbbb).

My chief difficulty with different key signatures is where one stave has one key signature and the other has a different one. Really does one's head in!

[ajspiano]

You know whats weird?

This.

Note that its from "basicmusictheory.com"



this one too..

[j_menz]

You know whats weird?

This.

Note that its from "basicmusictheory.com"

That's completely nuts. Apart from anything else the Db in the first and the Gb in the second should be preceded by natural signs or the flat makes them a triple flat.

The disturbing thing, though, is I almost recognise the keys (though not as a signature).

[ajspiano]

That's completely nuts. Apart from anything else the Db in the first and the Gb in the second should be preceded by natural signs or the flat makes them a triple flat.

The disturbing thing, though, is I almost recognise the keys (though not as a signature).

If a work had one of the above and was also marked like this it would probably qualify as the hardest piece ever, regardless of the actual notes..

[slobone]

Why is 6 flats so terrible? I see it all the time. The alternative to Gb major would be F# major, which has 6 sharps. Seems like the choice would just depend on which non-diatonic notes you were going to use more often, or where you were going to modulate to.

[ajspiano]

Why is 6 flats so terrible? I see it all the time. The alternative to Gb major would be F# major, which has 6 sharps. Seems like the choice would just depend on which non-diatonic notes you were going to use more often, or where you were going to modulate to.

I'm guessing that in the case of whatever instrument that image is for, 6 flats is a pain.

[slobone]

I'm guessing that in the case of whatever instrument that image is for, 6 flats is a pain.

Flute maybe?

[j_menz]

That annotation is implied at the start of every Alkan piece.  

Though "key" is not always accurate.  He frequently has two (or more) polyphonic lines on a stave that may be in different keys, one with sharps and one with flats, and an accidental applies to every note in that voice (but not another voice) throughout the bar. So you may have a series of say Fs that are either sharp, flat or natural depending on the voice they are in and may in fact be more than one of those at once, but are not graced with courtesy accidentals to clarify.

[ajspiano]

Flute maybe?

I'm thinking pretty much any wind player would balk.

I'm no authority on that though..

[timothy42b]

Because of modulations.

My bad.  I do see double sharps as accidentals frequently.  I meant I've never seen one in the key signature.

[basicmusictheory]

You know whats weird?

This.

Note that its from "basicmusictheory.com"



this one too..

It is weird, and wrong. Thanks v. much for flagging this up.. I run basicmusictheory.com. 

There was some bad logic in calculating adjustment cancellations from double sharps and flats, which should be fixed now, and should show correctly in the images on this thread (since the images are hotlinked).

If you run into any other mistakes, or have any other comments, I'd really appreciate the feedback. My email should be visible in my profile.

Regards,
Jon.