tuning recently acquired used piano

[andy1973]

I recently acquired a badly out of tune piano. After a couple weeks, hired a professional to tune it. (Local business, multi- generation family-owned.) I'm a noob to pianos, but I trust them all right based on their rep. But I wanted to get some second opinions nonetheless.

After he tuned it, he said that in cases like these (not having been tuned for a long time) pianos tend to want to go back to the way they were before, and that it would need another tuning in 1 to 3 months. But after a few tunings it will hold longer.

Now it's been a week, and I've noticed already it's more out of tune (but not as much when I first got it). So I assume for the moment that's normal in this case.

What I bought is a Jesse French and Sons studio piano for $100. I think it's dated ca 1935 (SN 1111116). The tuner seemed pretty impressed with the deal I got; he said he's seen some go for $1000 in worse shape, and that this one's in pretty good condition, pretty clean inside. Other than regulation, he didn't give any indication it would need a lot of work and no hint that there were any serious problems with it.

From what I understand, for a casual user -- a hobbyist -- a piano should be tuned once a year (I play on average 1-2 hours a day). But has anybody had a similar experience with getting a piano tuned?

He also had to pound some of the pegs in (explained that as the wood shrinks, the holes get bigger, and sometimes the pegs need to be pounded in a 1/16 of an inch but afterward should be good for 20 years).

[chopin2015]

How old is it? Maybe get new pin block mechanisms and strings, very expensive but that could help it stay solid for a while. I hope pinblock is the right word, im talking about the pins that hold the strings.

[andy1973]

How old is it? Maybe get new pin block mechanisms and strings, very expensive but that could help it stay solid for a while. I hope pinblock is the right word, im talking about the pins that hold the strings.

I don't know how old it is, I looked up the S/N (1111116) but there seems to be a 30 year gap in the records. I couldn't find it online.

Yeah, some of the pins are what he had to pound in, not pegs as I used the wrong term above. He said it would be $1300 to replace the pin block but said it wasn't necessary. He seemed pretty knowledgeable and experienced.

[chopin2015]

Cool! I was just throwing that out there. It is not needed right now, which is good. But if it does not stay in tune for atleast 6 months, (if it stays in tune this time, before fine-tuning) Then have further work done. A piano should stay in tune no matter what. I dont know if I read it here on PS or what, but you should press down as many notes as possible after first tuning, here

"In fact, one technique that concert level tuners will sometimes employ is after finishing the tuning of a piano, closing it, putting down the sustain pedal and playing as many keys as possible with the arms on the keyboard to generate huge sound. This will help to hasten the de-tuning of strings that may not be solidly set. The tuner can then re-tune the offending notes and have a piano that may endure the strength of a concert pianist’s performance without having the piano go out of tune quite as much since the most susceptible notes have already been corrected."

Robert Estrin
https://livingpianos.com/blog/

[hfmadopter]

I don't know how old it is, I looked up the S/N (1111116) but there seems to be a 30 year gap in the records. I couldn't find it online.

Yeah, some of the pins are what he had to pound in, not pegs as I used the wrong term above. He said it would be $1300 to replace the pin block but said it wasn't necessary. He seemed pretty knowledgeable and experienced.

It's an older piano that's just been moved and additionally requires driving the pins as well. If it holds at all I'd expect it to need three to four tunings before it stablizes, then tuning every 6 months after that, more or less based on your rate of playing the piano and assuming climate changes in the house.

Driving pins in should be successful but it isn't always. Much depends on the condition of the wood making up the pin block, FWIW. It's worth a shot first but pin blocks are an item that tends to have a certain life span. Sometimes we get away with defying that fact.

Your tuner is in the best position to assess your piano though.

[andy1973]

That pretty much jives with what the tuner told me. Thanks for the confirmation.

[indianajo]

Yes, my 1941 40" Steinway was way out when I bought it in 2010; it hadn't been tuned since 1966.  I pulled it up to pitch in two passes over 2 days, then it needed 5 more tunings to stabilize it over 3 months.  After that, 2 1/2 years passed before it needs it again now.  Just because the piano needs more than one tuning after a long gap, doesn't mean anything is wrong with it.  It  Just means the previous owner neglected it too long. 
With the market in used pianos being flooded like it is, there are few instruments worth installing a pin block.  Maybe 1 or two pegs might be worth bushing down, at the worst.  I didn't recognize the brand you mentioned as being one of the premium brands that holds value.  Those brands can justify some additional work.   

[keys60]

Andy,

What your tuner tells you is more than likely true. Your piano sound worse now than it did before because when the pitch dropped, it dropped more evenly across all of the strings than its dropping now. Some strings are staying more stretched more than others. It does take a good series of about 3 tunings in most cases to stabilize all of the strings. He probably measured the torque of the pins with a torque wrench before pounding the pins in to bring them more up to spec. i usually wait about 2 weeks before giving the second tuning. You'll notice a vast improvement after the second tuning and even more so after the third. Good luck with you new toy. I recommend tuning three times per year. Once per year will keep it fairly stable, but it will to out of tune as the seasons change, so to keep it sounding good, tuning with the seasonal changes is optimum.

[andy1973]

It's good to hear extra input on this subject, thank you.

Not wanting to go too far off-topic, is there a comprehensive thread here on piano regulation? The tuner mentioned a book by Larry Fine that helps a noob to regulate his or her piano, but I'm not too sure. I've never been too handy with tools and my measurements in shop class were for some reason always off by an 1/7 - 1/16 of an inch. Is it generally recommended for a new piano owner to have this done by a professional; should I take a look at Larry Fine's book before I decide; what is the title of his book; should I start a new thread?

[keys60]

I don't recommend regulating a piano on you own if you want it to come out right. There is key leveling, hammer let off, hammer blow, key spacing, key dip, all sorts of alignment. You do it wrong and your keys could block (not play) and you could have a real mess on your hands. However, it not being able to play it afterwards is not a problem and you just feel like messing around, its your call. Some people somewhere in the world may get lucky. The best way to learn is to pay a qualified tech for lessons or an apprenticeship. There are also regulation tools you would need. Cheaper to let the tech do it.

[hfmadopter]

 
With the market in used pianos being flooded like it is, there are few instruments worth installing a pin block.  Maybe 1 or two pegs might be worth bushing down, at the worst.  I didn't recognize the brand you mentioned as being one of the premium brands that holds value.  Those brands can justify some additional work.  

Yes, replacing the pin block is a big expensive job for sure. Shimming works or oversized pins works if the pin block isn't damaged ( I believe I'd go over sized pins personally). Some uprights can take driving in the pins and some can't but if that's working on the OP's piano so be it ! I've driven some pins on my grand, maybe 1/8th- 3/16ths " or so and they tightened right up and hold well ( very old 1890's piano)..

Speaking of shims, has anyone read (or even practised using) where Baldwin suggests using shims made from wedge shaped stips of 220 sandpaper ( the wet type paper) for tightening loose pins ? You lacquer or varnish the back side of the paper ahead of time, then cut the strips and fit them in the hole you took the pin out of. Clean and re-insert the pin. Or is this one of "those stories" you read about wth no substance and sounds too good to be true ? I have the link to the article if anyone wants to read it. Personally I couldn't believe my eyes as I read it but hey who knows !  
Here is the liik:
https://www.balaams-ass.com/60-tnpin.htm

[hfmadopter]

It's good to hear extra input on this subject, thank you.

Not wanting to go too far off-topic, is there a comprehensive thread here on piano regulation? The tuner mentioned a book by Larry Fine that helps a noob to regulate his or her piano, but I'm not too sure. I've never been too handy with tools and my measurements in shop class were for some reason always off by an 1/7 - 1/16 of an inch. Is it generally recommended for a new piano owner to have this done by a professional; should I take a look at Larry Fine's book before I decide; what is the title of his book; should I start a new thread?

If you are not handy with tools then skip regulating. For one thing in most aspects of tuning, the dfference between 1/7 of an inch and 1/16 of an in. is huge. In some aspects a few 1000ths ( like bushing clearance) is all you get. Some things are doable, like hammer to string spacing for instance but as Keys mentioned the tools will cost you more than to get the job done by a professional who knows what he is doing. Once done it won't need doing agin for years most likely.

[keys60]

I've heard of shimming the tuning pin with sand paper and that it could work. I however,  never heard this being recommended by Baldwin nor have I tried it. I've knocked in pins and/or have used pin tightener or CA glue (pretty similar to Crazy Glue) with some success. Sandpaper shims sounds like a last ditch and maybe even desperate effort. I may be wrong.

[hfmadopter]

I've heard of shimming the tuning pin with sand paper and that it could work. I however,  never heard this being recommended by Baldwin nor have I tried it. I've knocked in pins and/or have used pin tightener or CA glue (pretty similar to Crazy Glue) with some success. Sandpaper shims sounds like a last ditch and maybe even desperate effort. I may be wrong.

That's fine, I think any kind of shim sounds like last ditch.  Knocking pins in is as far as I've gone personally and it worked. As mentioned in my other post, I would consider oversized pins if the pin block looked good. Course it could be argued that if the pin block is good the pins wouldn't be loose !

I've read of using CA before, my concern with that is for ever sealing the grain of the wood in the block.  I also could see using CA and never turning the pin again if used incorrectly ( if there is even a correct way to use it ). The hobby industry for instance has some mighty strong super glue.

[andy1973]

Looks like my questions were all answered. Thanks.