Discussing Technique without any actual musical context

[nyiregyhazi]

I love it, a wonderful general rubbish example with no context shining in all its glorious meaninglessness.

I would improve fourth and fifth with a contextual exercise of actual notes on a keyboard rather than something which is not even getting the fingers to play the piano at all.

Sure, just rubbish an exercise that you clearly didn't even stop to try- given that I made quite clear that the context is in ANY piece of music featuring the 5th and that the exercise is performed after depressing the key- not away from the piano.

thanks for the reminder that you are just an angry and small minded troll, who has no interest in anything but repeating preconceived opinions. You neither performed nor even show any sign of having read the exercise I detailed.

[p2u_]

I'm sorry but I don't believe that none of this training is instantly referred to pieces they currently play. You could not bear but experiment, or do they tie your hands up?

Could you rephrase your question?

Paul

[keypeg]

Simply everything you learn about the piano needs to be experienced while you are playing the piano. Yes you can tell the student to sit like this, put their hands like that etc, but it means nothing to them if they don't actually feel it and test it out. That is the context.

Of course.  But this is a teacher's forum.  So you imagine if there is a novice teacher asking "What should I teach beginners.  What piece should I start with first." it might be a good idea to tell that teacher that he should start with some basic skills like knowing how to find all the D's on the piano, and where he should sit.  We should hope that our hypothetical new teacher would sit his student down, look at how he looks, give him a piece, and observe and adjust as the student plays.  Do teachers have to be told that?

There is nitpicking about detail in a forum where a lot can go wrong by trying to follow written descriptions of physical matters of the body and senses, and then there are general guidelines to be intelligently applied.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sure, just rubbish an exercise that you clearly didn't even stop to try- given that I made quite clear that the context is in ANY piece of music featuring the 5th and that the exercise is performed after depressing the key- not away from the piano.

thanks for the reminder that you are just an angry and small minded troll, who has no interest in anything but repeating preconceived opinions. You neither performed nor even show any sign of having read the exercise I detailed.

Don't be hurt that the lowly Hanon made your advice look silly.

[nyiregyhazi]

What about the Hanon:

CDCD AGAG  - DEDE BABA etc   
RH 1212 5454.
LH: 5454 1212.

contrasting the strong 12 with the weaker 45 so the student has time to recover from exercising the movement. Then the teacher will give advise to improve the student depending on their needs. The context. Proper teaching.

If you'd care to actually read what I said, you might actually apply the exercise I detailed to that example.

Simply do the exercise after the fifth every time it sounds. The student will learn more about how to achieve a balanced finger from doing a single bar, than from blasting out the whole hanon exercise. They'll also go on perform the exercise with ease, after this preparation for it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Honestly lets put it very clear which one makes more sense given that you admit they are about the same thing.

OUT OF CONTEXT EXAMPLE by Nyir
The fourth and fifth fingers often operate poorly due to poor starter positions and poor alignment of the arm. When the fifth is felt to struggle, simply pull the thumb back (keeping the fifth finger down on its key), then draw it back in to the piano (while also going sideways a little towards the fifth) and touch beneath the keys. Finger and arm will find superb alignment. Then play the passage as normal and observe how much more ease and control of sound occurs on the note played by that finger.


CONTEXTUAL EXAMPLE by Liiw

What about the Hanon:

CDCD AGAG  - DEDE BABA etc  
RH 1212 5454.
LH: 5454 1212.

contrasting the strong 12 with the weaker 45 so the student has time to recover from exercising the movement. Then the teacher will give advise to improve the student depending on their needs. The context. Students have the ability to test and experiment. Hanons exercise sets them up for a lot of experimentation






Which one is clearer? Honestly is that a hard choice?

[keypeg]

Reading more of the discussion, I'll say IT DEPENDS ON THE STUDENT and where that student is at.  There is a balance with pure technique and theory on one side, a musicality and feeling on the other.  Not actually a balance but an intermeshing.  Where is the student in that intermeshing.  The teacher would see where the student is and act accordingly.

I definitely need to go pure technique minus music, and then add music, a lot of the time because where I am at.  I was untrained most of my life, and I am quite musical.  Therefore I just found "some way" to produce the sounds I wanted to hear in the music, and that became a set of unfortunate reflexes.  On piano I can give you staccato and pianissimo.  The reflex for staccato was to tighten the forearm and hand, and bounce off like angry pokes at a burning surface.  Pianissimo was a limpness of the hand and fingers which caused tension in the rest of the arm that was compensating.  As soon as I heard the sound in my mind in the music, those reflexes kicked in.  The ONLY way I've been able to make a dent in this is by practising the motion away from music, aim for the sound along with the motion, and then when it is a familiar feeling, deliberately include this new motion into the music.

If someone is learning from scratch and has a decent teacher, then this motion-for-sound will be trained into an association early on. That student would learn differently.
---------------
Addendum:
I am discussing general ideas, not an obtuse Liiw vs. Nier. contest.

[p2u_]

Honestly lets put it very clear which one makes more sense given that you admit they are about the same thing.

[...]

Which one is clearer? Honestly is that a hard choice?

Honestly? Depending, of course, who this example is for (I'll just assume the average not too talented person), I would give my money to N without a doubt. Your approach may work with prodigies and very talented people who have the right coordination already, although, when they're 40, they still may have to reevaluate their technique. It's not the exercise itself that is important, it's what you can learn from it for the future.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

Honestly? Depending, of course, who this example is for (I'll just assume the average not too talented person), I would give my money to N without a doubt. Your approach may work with prodigies and very talented people who have the right coordination already, although, when they're 40, they still may have to reevaluate their technique. It's not the exercise itself that is important, it's what you can learn from it for the future.

Paul

Well I am shocked that you think that was so advanced. This thread might interest you:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=13583.0

[nyiregyhazi]

Honestly lets put it very clear which one makes more sense given that you admit they are about the same thing.

OUT OF CONTEXT EXAMPLE by Nyir
The fourth and fifth fingers often operate poorly due to poor starter positions and poor alignment of the arm. When the fifth is felt to struggle, simply pull the thumb back (keeping the fifth finger down on its key), then draw it back in to the piano (while also going sideways a little towards the fifth) and touch beneath the keys. Finger and arm will find superb alignment. Then play the passage as normal and observe how much more ease and control of sound occurs on the note played by that finger.


CONTEXTUAL EXAMPLE by Liiw

What about the Hanon:

CDCD AGAG  - DEDE BABA etc  
RH 1212 5454.
LH: 5454 1212.

contrasting the strong 12 with the weaker 45 so the student has time to recover from exercising the movement. Then the teacher will give advise to improve the student depending on their needs. The context.






Which one is clearer? Honestly is that a hard choice?

Mine  is clearer. The exercise creates low effort balance in itself. Your description was of prescribing an exercise and then teaching. That is not clear at all.it was given without context or specifics. with the exercise I detail, the student teaches them self how to balance on their 5th. They need merely follow the instructions to get that.

Anyway, I'm not going to give any further examples as this is clearly some kind of of competition to you.  I hope other posters will actually try the exercise and see quite what context it gives to the 5th finger's operation in general.

[lostinidlewonder]

Ah but you underestimate the students ability to test and experiment. Hanons exercise sets them up for a lot of experimentation.

[p2u_]

Well I am shocked that you think that was so advanced. This thread might interest you:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=13583.0

So sorry to have shocked you. I am most likely biased by profession. I see Hanon as yet another [not too musical] opportunity to apply right principles of movement that are already present in the student. If practised incorrectly, it can do nothing but harm.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

Well you didn't shock me not like ARRRGG!!!! lol. More like surprise because that hanon exercises is quite a simple one which many teachers give beginners. I don't need to talk about Hanon here because it was done in previous threads.

[p2u_]

Well you didn't shock me not like ARRRGG!!!! lol. More like surprise because that hanon exercises is quite a simple one which many teachers give beginners. I don't need to talk about Hanon here because it was done in previous threads.

Could you please have a look at reply # 51? You may have missed it since everything is going so fast. I'd like to understand your question so I can give a decent reply.

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

Ah but you underestimate the students ability to test and experiment. Hanons exercise sets them up for a lot of experimentation.

I've never encountered any results so quick or effective as those that will follow this exercise- either in myself or students- both beginners and extremely advanced.

The whole thing about it is that it scarcely requires experimenting. the situation itself virtually creates the quality balance. You scarcely need to experiment to improve the fifth, if you perform this action. years of self experimentation had never given me as much.

[lostinidlewonder]

I've never encountered any results so quick or effective as those that will follow this exercise- either in myself or students- both beginners and extremely advanced.

The whole thing about it is that it scarcely requires experimenting. the situation itself virtually creates the quality balance. You scarcely need to experiment to improve the fifth, if you perform this action. years of self experimentation had never given me as much.

Well we have to believe you don't we.

[lostinidlewonder]

Could you please have a look at reply # 51? You may have missed it since everything is going so fast. I'd like to understand your question so I can give a decent reply.

Paul

Talking about technique WITHOUT ANY MUSICAL CONTEXT is useless compared to talking about technique WITH MUSICAL CONTEXT.

This means: If you talk about technique and don't reference what you say to actual music examples, it is not very meaningful. One needs to complete the picture and apply discussion of technique to music that they can play, this is a much better way to learn by comparison.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well we have to believe you don't we.

Either that or actually open your mind enough to try the exercise as I described it to you.

[lostinidlewonder]

Better still lets see what other people think about it.

[p2u_]

Talking about technique WITHOUT ANY MUSICAL CONTEXT is useless compared to talking about technique WITH MUSICAL CONTEXT.

This means: If you talk about technique and don't reference what you say to actual music examples, it is not very meaningful. One needs to complete the picture and apply discussion of technique to music that they can play, this is a much better way to learn by comparison.

That is not an answer to my question. I'll just quote then for you. In the context of RETRAINING people, you replied:

I'm sorry but I don't believe that none of this training is instantly referred to pieces they currently play. You could not bear but experiment, or do they tie your hands up?

What do you mean?

Paul

[p2u_]

Also, keypeg made some very important points in this post that seem to contradict your claim about mandatory musical context. Please address that post in a reply. Thank you.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

p2u you don't have mind control over me thanks.

[p2u_]

p2u you don't have mind control over me thanks.

?

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

You keep telling me to do things. Go away.

[p2u_]

You keep telling me to do things. Go away.

I used "please" in my request because my mum raised me that way. When you use "please", she explained to me, you don't tell anyone to do something; you kindly ask. So?

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

Please accept my choice to respond to what I want to respond to.

[p2u_]

Please accept my choice to respond to what I want to respond to.

OK. In turn, please be aware of the impression you leave with the audience by omitting/evading certain information that was used to counter your point.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

OK. In turn, please be aware of the impression you leave with the audience by omitting/evading certain information that was used to counter your point.

Paul

And I honor your right to that opinion my dear chap!

*Sips some expensive liquor and adjusts monocle.

[p2u_]

And I honor your right to that opinion my dear chap!

*Sips some expensive liquor and adjusts monocle.

So, now you are going to wait until finally someone shows up who believes what you believe? All the others are either ignored or their actions/arguments are misrepresented. You are the one with the "facts" and all the others have "opinions". Is that the drill? Do they pay you well to do this on a resource that does not belong to you?

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhm-NTzc4rU

[keypeg]

Also, keypeg made some very important points in this post that seem to contradict your claim about mandatory musical context. Please address that post in a reply. Thank you.

Paul

I did not make any statement about mandatory musical context.  What do you think I said?

[keypeg]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhm-NTzc4rU

Waste of time.  The above is not a musical example.  Don't bother clicking.

[p2u_]

I did not make any statement about mandatory musical context.  What do you think I said?

You said: "I definitely need to go pure technique minus music, and then add music". This means 2 different stages, right? If I misunderstood you, please correct me.
EDIT: This seems to contradict the topic starter's very first post perfectly.

Paul

[hardy_practice]

I must agree with LiiW.  There's much too much hot air and not enough hard example in this forum when it comes to technique.

[p2u_]

I must agree with LiiW.  There's much too much hot air and not enough hard example in this forum when it comes to technique.

Could you be more specific? I would like to hear a reply in the light of what has already been discussed in this topic. In his first post, LiiW made a generalisation - something that is true in ALL cases. Some arguments were given by others of cases where this statement doesn't hold.

Paul

[keypeg]

You said: "I definitely need to go pure technique minus music, and then add music". This means 2 different stages, right? If I misunderstood you, please correct me.
EDIT: This seems to contradict the topic starter's very first post perfectly.

I mean that in my particular situation, working in the context of music and starting with the music may not work.  The reason is that the sounds that I want to produce are associated with physical reflexes that will produce those sounds, but at a cost - such as the tight jerking motion I used to have for staccato.  So I have to learn new ways of moving.  The best way is to do that away from music, get the movement into my body until it's a new reflex.  Then I can go back to the music, use the movement that I learned.  Eventually when I think of that sound (staccato, crescendo, etc.) then the sound will cause the new learned reflex to kick in.

My view is that it depends on the student and where the student is at.  My particular situation at this point in time contradicts what the OP seems to be about --- but it is hard to tell what the OP seems to be about.  I have a feeling that it is not about technique as such, but about how certain individuals talk about it.  In that case I would regret having said one word here.

[p2u_]

I mean that in my particular situation, working in the context of music and starting with the music may not work.  The reason is that the sounds that I want to produce are associated with physical reflexes that will produce those sounds, but at a cost - such as the tight jerking motion I used to have for staccato.  So I have to learn new ways of moving.  The best way is to do that away from music, get the movement into my body until it's a new reflex.  Then I can go back to the music, use the movement that I learned.  Eventually when I think of that sound (staccato, crescendo, etc.) then the sound will cause the new learned reflex to kick in.

My view is that it depends on the student and where the student is at.  My particular situation at this point in time contradicts what the OP seems to be about --- but it is hard to tell what the OP seems to be about.  I have a feeling that it is not about technique as such, but about how certain individuals talk about it.  In that case I would regret having said one word here.

I share your opinion on all accounts.

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

I mean that in my particular situation, working in the context of music and starting with the music may not work.  The reason is that the sounds that I want to produce are associated with physical reflexes that will produce those sounds, but at a cost - such as the tight jerking motion I used to have for staccato.  So I have to learn new ways of moving.  The best way is to do that away from music, get the movement into my body until it's a new reflex.  Then I can go back to the music, use the movement that I learned.  Eventually when I think of that sound (staccato, crescendo, etc.) then the sound will cause the new learned reflex to kick in.

My view is that it depends on the student and where the student is at.  My particular situation at this point in time contradicts what the OP seems to be about --- but it is hard to tell what the OP seems to be about.  I have a feeling that it is not about technique as such, but about how certain individuals talk about it.  In that case I would regret having said one word here.

I think you may have misread something earlier- as this is exactly the stance he had attributed to in the passage that you questioned.

[keypeg]

I think you may have misread something earlier- as this is exactly the stance he had attributed to in the passage that you questioned.

P2U asked.  I answered.  He said he understood.  So that is solved.  Whether you understand is a different issue, but the conversation between me and P2U is fine.

[ajspiano]

Wow, what a thread.. amazing how much happens when you're away for 5 minutes (two days)

So anyway, frankly I agree with liiw.. musical context is required, always..  but in saying that, if you isolate a technical concept, such as octave playing, then you have a musical context - octaves is a musical idea, and it will always be so whether or not you are playing something that is a written piece of music or if it is just a single octave..  discussion on it can not be overly exact without a precise configuration of notes, but there should be concepts or principles in play that allow you to find the right execution no matter what configuration of actual notes you are playing.. 

Such concepts must exist because if they didn't we would not find technical challenges previously overcome (such as melody in octaves) easier in a new piece - and we would certainly not be able to improvise, technically conquering figures that we have never seen, heard or played until that instant.

I don't see why such ideas can't be discussed in written form. They are certainly more open to misinterpretation than if coupled with in-person discussion and demonstration but it hardly voids the value of the conversation. I couldn't count the number of times words alone found on this forum led to improvements in my technique by pointing me in a better direction..  Along with improvements found in books like Fink's "Mastering Piano Technique" and Fraser's "Craft of piano" - and in the case of the latter, there is much to be found in the early sections that are essentially movement principles with no real in-piece context..  rather just discussions on ideas of balance, legato note transitions, loud octaves etc. etc.

Obviously once understood they need to be consciously applied in context though.

[p2u_]

I don't see why such ideas can't be discussed in written form.

In this context I'd like to make a few remarks.
First off, this topic was deliberately misposted. It should have been posted in the Performance thread, but the chances of getting support there would have been minimum.

1) If one is not in the target group of such a discussion (either one is very advanced and it is boring, or one is not advanced enough to make sense out of it), does that warrant a call for mediocrity and ignorance? I don't think so. Does it warrant the spreading of hatred with certain types of posts/threads and through PM, a troll's favorite tool? I don't think so.

2) Discussions and descriptions like the ones agitated against here by the topic starter reveal for the professionals who is who. You can easily see who has been through the experience and who quotes from written wisdom in books.

It suffices to ask: "Describe the difference in mechanics and playing sensations between an upright and a concert grand, 4 parameters; pedals NOT included. This will reveal whether the person is the world class pianist they claim to be, and it will certainly reveal whether they are qualified to teach an advanced student the ropes of virtuosity. If one cannot even answer such a simple question (the answer is not in the books), how on earth can one even begin to understand what N. and the others are talking about?

It is worth noting that the ones who don't know the answer to such a simple question or the ones who guess awkwardly for an answer are the ones who argue most fervently against this kind of discussions. They haven't got a clue, that's why they don't understand the function of such discussions.

3) Discussions and descriptions like these also reveal the trolls, but that is a separate art that is beyond the scope of this topic.

Paul

[j_menz]

Describe the difference in mechanics and playing sensations between an upright and a concert grand, 4 parameters; pedals NOT included.

Only 4? 

[p2u_]

Only 4?  

In terms of technique and playing sensations, yes. Of course, the focus, the scope is virtuosity. Things you cannot do on an upright.

Paul

[j_menz]

In terms of technique and playing sensations, yes. Of course, the focus, the scope is virtuosity. Things you cannot do on an upright.

Paul

Ah, that is now clearer.

I'm guessing this one isn't in your 4, though:

[p2u_]

Ah, that is now clearer.

I'm guessing this one isn't in your 4, though:

Oh, no! My wife would slap me...

Paul

[ajspiano]

In this context I'd like to make a few remarks.
First off, this topic was deliberately misposted. It should have been posted in the Performance thread, but the chances of getting support there would have been minimum.

The performance bored has seen plenty of extended action on such a topic.. I rather agree with you're earlier sentiments that this was a deliberate attack on N. though, rather than a real discussion.

Does it warrant the spreading of hatred with certain types of posts/threads and through PM, a troll's favorite tool? I don't think so.

Of course not.

2) Discussions and descriptions like the ones agitated against here by the topic starter reveal for the professionals who is who. You can easily see who has been through the experience and who quotes from written wisdom in books.

hahah yes, and what's you're assessment of myself then? I tend to think people give me more credit than I deserve but I doubt you're so easily fooled.

It suffices to ask: "Describe the difference in mechanics and playing sensations between an upright and a concert grand, 4 parameters; pedals NOT included. This will reveal whether the person is the world class pianist they claim to be, and it will certainly reveal whether they are qualified to teach an advanced student the ropes of virtuosity.

Well, I don't own a grand, nor have I ever regularly played on one unfortunately, so I wouldn't bother trying to answer this with any level of authority.. and though I'm sure I could provide a rough answer I don't claim to be a world class pianist, nor do I teach students at that level.

If one cannot even answer such a simple question (the answer is not in the books), how on earth can one even begin to understand what N. and the others are talking about?

Such conversations can allow the less experienced to clarify thoughts and lead to developing certain knowledge along the road to truly knowing what you're doing. That doesn't tend to be how they go though, too much ego and arrogance flying around.

It is worth noting that the ones who don't know the answer to such a simple question or the ones who guess awkwardly for an answer are the ones who argue most fervently against this kind of discussions. They haven't got a clue, that's why they don't understand the function of such discussions.

So as someone who admits to lacking experience and yet who sees value in and learns from such conversations where do I stand? am I the odd one out?

3) Discussions and descriptions like these also reveal the trolls, but that is a separate art that is beyond the scope of this topic.

Indeed, but that also requires a certain level of knowledge just as does the weeding out who really knows what they are talking about.

[p2u_]

[...]
hahah yes, and what's you're assessment of myself then? I tend to think people give me more credit than I deserve but I doubt you're so easily fooled.
[...]
So as someone who admits to lacking experience and yet who sees value in and learns from such conversations where do I stand?

I have a list of capable people which I'm, of course, not going to reveal because the list is specific and does not work in a Facebook Like/Dislike fashion. Suffice it to say that you are among them.

Paul

[ajspiano]

I have a list of capable people which I'm, of course, not going to reveal because the list is specific and does not work in a Facebook Like/Dislike fashion. Suffice it to say that you are among them.

Paul

Now I won't be able to sleep at night wondering if you said that because you meant it or to avoid offending me.. 

I shouldn't have asked in the first place.

[p2u_]

Now I won't be able to sleep at night wondering if you said that because you meant it or to avoid offending me.. 

I shouldn't have asked in the first place.

I usually say what I mean. Wasn't that clear from my behavior on this forum?
P.S.: Rhetoric question. You don't have to reply.

Paul

[j_menz]

The performance bored has seen plenty of extended action on such a topic..

Hence the spelling. 

I rather agree with you're earlier sentiments

I shouldn't have asked in the first place.

LOL. Asking "Am I an idiot?" can never end well.