Baroque ornaments

[outin]

Just curious...when you learn baroque pieces do you learn the notes without the ornaments first and then add them later? I always put them in right away and I wonder if it's the most effective way...Only sometimes I add my own later to some notes if I feel they ask for one...

[andreslr6]

I think the ideal way would be learning the notes first without the ornaments and then add your own later as improvisations. But as a student I strongly believe it's necessary to learn them first when they're written for experience and practice, they serve too as examples and points of reference of the possibilities for later ornamentations you might want to add.

[slobone]

Ornaments in Bach, at least, are very specific and are definitely a part of the piece. I always include them right from the beginning, especially because they often turn out to be the hardest part. I don't usually add ornaments of my own, but if I did, I would probably wait until I knew the piece pretty well.

[iansinclair]

Baroque ornaments, if written in, are NOT improvisations.  They are very specific and very strictly part of the music, played on specific notes as annotated in the score, and in strict time.  Learn them as if the notes were written out in the score; you'll save yourself a lot of heartache.

Note that this is not true of variations in singing in such things as coloratura da capo arias in, say, Handel.  But that is a very different kind of thing.

Nor is it true of realisations of a figured bass.  But that's a different animal, too.

[outin]

OK, thanks all!
I play mostly Scarlatti. Wouldn't dare adding anything to Bach...

[landru]

For someone comfortable with ornaments and has a solid rhythmic sense - then starting out with ornaments from the start is a good thing to do.

However if you are new to ornaments and/or have an unsteady rhythmic sense, then learning the piece without ornaments can be a great help when adding in the ornaments. Since I was new to ornaments AND have unsteady rhythm in the best of times, my problem was always to end the ornament too late (as I was 99.999999% focused on playing the ornament) - this would throw out the rhythm of the rest of piece and it was just a shambles.

Learning the piece without ornaments would have helped that immensely as I would have that inner feel of how the music flowed without the ornament. But since I was focused on playing the ornament and not hearing anything else that was going on, I left everything else out to dry!

[slobone]

Baroque ornaments, if written in, are NOT improvisations.  They are very specific and very strictly part of the music, played on specific notes as annotated in the score, and in strict time.  Learn them as if the notes were written out in the score; you'll save yourself a lot of heartache.

Note that this is not true of variations in singing in such things as coloratura da capo arias in, say, Handel.  But that is a very different kind of thing.

Nor is it true of realisations of a figured bass.  But that's a different animal, too.

What about adding ones that aren't written in? Any opinions?

[iansinclair]

What about adding ones that aren't written in? Any opinions?

I would say that it depends somewhat on the composer and the particular piece.  Bach?  Probably not, unless you are really "up" on Bach and Bach style (that is, you can improvise successfully and convincingly in that Baroque style)(I can't!).  Handel?  Probably, particularly as a way to distinguish such things as da capo returns.  Scarlatti -- again, more like Bach but perhaps more flexibility (but one does want to be sure that the ornament is in the appropriate style -- a romantic era trill, for instance, would probably not be such a good idea!).

It really depends on your musical judgement and knowledge of the performing standards of the era...

[outin]

Scarlatti -- again, more like Bach but perhaps more flexibility (but one does want to be sure that the ornament is in the appropriate style

I think when playing the repeats of the movements it sometimes feels appropriate to put a little something extra the second time. But in general his also seem to be already thought out. Except one doesn't always know how much the scores have been edited later.

[hfmadopter]

I think when playing the repeats of the movements it sometimes feels appropriate to put a little something extra the second time. But in general his also seem to be already thought out. Except one doesn't always know how much the scores have been edited later.

You guys all seem to be able to speak in more advanced terms than me about baroque ornamentation. I just follow the score, I was taught to go at it one measure at a time and learn what's in the measure, so that's what I do. Granted, even then it is open to some interpretation but I sure am not improvising any of it. I am not advanced enough in baroque study to even think of it. My teacher was a huge Bachaholic and church organsit as well, so into baroque in general but I only ever warmed up to all that just so much. She was very particular how she taught the ornamentation and my scores were all marked in pencil like a road map, is what I seem to remember.

[rmbarbosa]

In Bach, many times left hand plays wonderful things, so wonderful as RH.
So, instead of to put ornaments of my own, I prefer to give more emphasis to one hand ou the other, when ther`s a da capo.
For example: in a very very very easy piece like the small prelude in C minor, first part, we have may play first giving emphasis to the LH legato (and play RH finger stacatto) and repeat playing RH and LH legato with more emphasis in RH. So, we repeat the same thing with two different "ways". In the 2º part, we may do the inverse... Without put anything of our own...
The same in the small prelude in E major: first playng the theme RH and LH, after playing with more emphasis the mirrors...
In more complicated compositions, the polyphonie allows us to do something like that. We dont need to invent ornaments where they arent.
Sorry, my English is really uggly (But surely your Portuguese is also uggly, isnt it? 
rui

[brogers70]

To Rui,

An excellent idea to vary slightly the emphasis on different voices in the repeats.

Your English is not ugly at all. (E meu portugues tem a majestade dos Lusiadas, o toque sertanejo do Joao Guimaraes Rosa, a transparencia de Euclides da Cunha, e a sutileza de Clarice Lispector. - Estou brincando, meu portugues esta cheio de erros). Apologies for the brief violation of the English only policy.

Bill

[slobone]

I'm pretty sure scholars agree now that performers in the Baroque era often added their own ornaments, especially in repeats. But they would also have been thoroughly grounded in the style of their own time, so would have had a better notion of what was appropriate. It's sometimes illuminating, but sometimes painful, when modern performers try to do the same thing.

There's also a difference between harpsichord and piano. One of the reasons harpsichord music has so many ornaments is surely because that was one way to emphasize a note. We can just play the note a little louder. So ornamentation has to have a different meaning for us.

And PS I don't consider Bach's music sacred in this regard. On the contrary, it's strong enough to stand up to just about any abuse you throw at it (including Wendy Carlos and the Swingle Singers). So if you want to add ornaments, go for it.

[rmbarbosa]

Bill, are you Portuguese? Brasilien? If I could speak English so well as you speak portuguese...

[brogers70]

Rui,

No, I'm American, but my wife is Brazilian and I love Brazilian literature. I learned spoken portuguese from her, and I learned written portuguese by buying a dictionary and working through Os Sertoes, by Euclides da Cunha. That took a long time, but once I'd managed that, all the other authors seemed fairly easy. I read all of Jorge Amado (a bit repetitive but good for acquiring vocabulary painlessly), then a bit of Machado de Assis (dull), and then Joao Ubaldo Ribeiro, Darcy Ribeiro, Graciliano Ramos, Joao Guimaraes Rosa (it was worth learning portuguese just to be able to read Grande Sertao in the original language), Clarice Lispector, Marcio Souza, and others whose names escape me at the moment. Latin American Literature from the Spanish speaking countries is pretty well known in the U.S. It's too bad Brazilian literature is not better known here.

And to stay on topic a bit, I used your suggestion about emphasizing different contrapuntal voices in repeats in the middle section of the Brahms Intermezzo 117/3; not baroque obviously, but it works pretty well, I think.

[kriatina]

I have been reading that especially in the Baroque era
keyboard-players were encouraged to "put in" their own ornaments
according to their taste (whatever that may mean).

It was this "whatever that may mean" which made some keyboard players
"let things go out of hand" and some pieces were hardly recognized anymore.

From then on keyboard players were encouraged to go rather "according to the score".

Good luck from Kristina.

[slobone]

I have been reading that especially in the Baroque era
keyboard-players were encouraged to "put in" their own ornaments
according to their taste (whatever that may mean).

It was this "whatever that may mean" which made some keyboard players
"let things go out of hand" and some pieces were hardly recognized anymore.

From then on keyboard players were encouraged to go rather "according to the score".

Good luck from Kristina.

It's not exactly clear to me when this changed. Even as late as the 20th century, some performers were in the habit of adding stuff of their own to pieces by great composers. I think it's pretty rare since about WWII though.

[kriatina]

I remember reading that Haendel "put the foot down"
whenever any of his his musicians and/or Soprano's tried to add
their own trills and interpretations to his compositions.
He thought that would be unfair to the composer.
This fact is also pointed out in the 1942 production of "The great Mr. Haendel".