F. Chopin - 2nd Sonata

[lollonapo]

First of all, sorry for my bad English, I come from Italy.  

This is the first movement of the 2nd sonata by Chopin. I will update the other three tomorrow, maybe.
I come from the "Scuola del Bel Canto" so, I know I have a different way of playing some phrases.

Sorry for the piano,  it is an old Petrof a bit harsh( and with a broken string   ) and with a dry(I don't know if you use this adjective in english) sound.

What should I improve, in your opinion? ( I started to learn it 6 months ago)





[  Scherzo updated below ]

[catherinezng]

Wow congrats on learning the whole sonata! What a feat 

Overall, your performance is a little erratic: the tempo keeps changing. Remember that this is a Sonata, not a Ballade so tempo should be more strict. This was the biggest concern and this problem existed in many sections so I will not speak of it in repetition.

In measure 2, the half note chord has an accent and is the highest note. This should be brought out. Also note the phrasing of this chord to the one in measure 3 and 4. These three chords also lead to the eight note of measure 5. There should not be too much time taken between these.

Always keep in mind the motif of this piece. It reoccurs throughout the entire piece and the pace should be the same.

In the agitato section, measure 17 and 19 are a little harsh and too staccato . Keep the pedal on.
In the section of with the accenting on the second and third beat, make sure the third beat is not held too long.

The rest in measure 39 should be held to it's full beat.

The change to the sostenuto is also too sudden and the sostenuto could use more time. Also make sure not to take time in the middle of phrases. Keep the phrase markings in mind as this should dictate the direction of the piece. Chopin wrote his music more horizontal than vertical.

Why did you slow down when you got 57? This part needs to move more. Again, keep the phrases in mind and don't slow down in the middle of one.

The triplets need to gradually build up to the fortissimo, rather than sudden increases in dynamics. Measures 97-100, the triplets need to be even.

Measures 108 to 121, the eight notes are building. Keep this in mind. Slowing the tempo destroys the tension.

Keep the motif in mind measures 126 to 153. The pace should be the same as the beginning.
Try to make some dynamic contrast even in the fortissimo. On the running eight notes following this section, keep the tension at the 158 to 159 by keeping the tempo for the triplets.

The following section is the same as before.

In the end, stretto should be building to the massive chords at the end.

The chords at the end should be more grand so don't rush. Make each chord deep and meaningful

I am also playing this piece and it has been quite a challenge Good luck!

[birba]

Meno male! Un'altro italiano qui.  Oggi l'ascoltero.  Dove vivi, con chi studi, etc?

[lollonapo]

Meno male! Un'altro italiano qui.  Oggi l'ascoltero.  Dove vivi, con chi studi, etc?

Molto bene 

Vivo a Napoli e dove mi sono anche diplomato ( vecchio ordinamento ).

Ora, (anche se è inutile) mi sono iscritto al 2° livello e studio con il M. Gabriele Ottaiano.

Tu invece?

[lollonapo]

Wow congrats on learning the whole sonata! What a feat 

Overall, your performance is a little erratic: the tempo keeps changing. Remember that this is a Sonata, not a Ballade so tempo should be more strict. This was the biggest concern and this problem existed in many sections so I will not speak of it in repetition.

In measure 2, the half note chord has an accent and is the highest note. This should be brought out. Also note the phrasing of this chord to the one in measure 3 and 4. These three chords also lead to the eight note of measure 5. There should not be too much time taken between these.

Always keep in mind the motif of this piece. It reoccurs throughout the entire piece and the pace should be the same.

In the agitato section, measure 17 and 19 are a little harsh and too staccato . Keep the pedal on.
In the section of with the accenting on the second and third beat, make sure the third beat is not held too long.

The rest in measure 39 should be held to it's full beat.

The change to the sostenuto is also too sudden and the sostenuto could use more time. Also make sure not to take time in the middle of phrases. Keep the phrase markings in mind as this should dictate the direction of the piece. Chopin wrote his music more horizontal than vertical.

Why did you slow down when you got 57? This part needs to move more. Again, keep the phrases in mind and don't slow down in the middle of one.

The triplets need to gradually build up to the fortissimo, rather than sudden increases in dynamics. Measures 97-100, the triplets need to be even.

Measures 108 to 121, the eight notes are building. Keep this in mind. Slowing the tempo destroys the tension.

Keep the motif in mind measures 126 to 153. The pace should be the same as the beginning.
Try to make some dynamic contrast even in the fortissimo. On the running eight notes following this section, keep the tension at the 158 to 159 by keeping the tempo for the triplets.

The following section is the same as before.

In the end, stretto should be building to the massive chords at the end.

The chords at the end should be more grand so don't rush. Make each chord deep and meaningful

I am also playing this piece and it has been quite a challenge Good luck!

Thank you for the detailed analysis!

I agree with you on everything; nevertheless, there are some things I can't do with this piano. It hasn't a deep sound, especially in the bass register. Because of this, the last chords are really harsh, actually.

The only thing I didn't understand is the fact in measures 97-100. (But it is due to the fact i don't understand english so much)

Sorry for all the errors (don't shudder) and thank you for your patience

[birba]

I like that very very much.  Even with that awful piano.  You know, it's true what they say about old discs with scratches, distorted sound etc.  You get used to it and it ends up not bothering you at all.  Because the music always comes through.  Well, that depends on who's playing.  but anyway, you get remarkable colors out of that Petrof.  I think Italy (and checkoslovakia) are the only countries that have them.  They were pretty good up to ww ii.  Anyway, I'm digressing.
LIke I said, you have great dynamic range on this battlehorse.  I feel you're playing too much with the tempi.  For example in the second theme sostenuto, you start out faster then before!  Maybe you're afraid the whole notes won't ring out long enough.  And then when you come to bar 57, for example, you slow down way too much.  You have to have a constant pulse that can vary from a rallentando to an accelerando, but the underlying beat is CONSTANT.  This is what gives unity to the piece.
I know it's difficult, but you have to make the right rhythm heard in the opening.  It tends to sound like the following repetition where the beat does fall 3rd eighth note.  You have to accent the second eighth note in the opening to get that agitato feeling.
The closing triplet motif in the last part of the expo, are all legato.  You detach the upbeat and then slur the second two.  No, they have to be legato.  And don't slow down the last 8 bars.  Keep it in time.
The development was wonderful.   Slow, but wonderful.  You played that climax exactly how I want to hear it.  Bass notes, first;  r.h. second;  and the inner notes last in importance.  A little too fast those descending passages in the last bars of the development.  But a wonderful diminuendo. 
The same comments for the recap.  In the coda, keep it going!  don't slow down.  Keep the beat steady throughout the stretto.
There are 2 notes I'm not so sure of.  It might be me.  In bar 72 I heard a b-natural in the last note of the left-hand.  measure 121, the bottom note is b-flat.  I thought I heard natural.
Comunque, bravo!
Sono molto più grande di te.  Ho studiato con DeMargheriti, Silvestri, Agosti, and Vitale. (l'ultimo era a Santa Cecilia per un'anno)  Ho fatto anche il corso a Positano con Kempff.  Abito fuori Roma.  Sono statunitense ma vivo qui da più di 40 anni.
Sono curioso di sentire il resto.  Adoro questa sonata.  Ho sentito Michelangeli alla sala Nervi.  Non hai idea cos'ha fatto con il 4° tempo!

[lollonapo]

I like that very very much.  Even with that awful piano.  You know, it's true what they say about old discs with scratches, distorted sound etc.  You get used to it and it ends up not bothering you at all.  Because the music always comes through.  Well, that depends on who's playing.  but anyway, you get remarkable colors out of that Petrof.  I think Italy (and checkoslovakia) are the only countries that have them.  They were pretty good up to ww ii.  Anyway, I'm digressing.
LIke I said, you have great dynamic range on this battlehorse.  I feel you're playing too much with the tempi.  For example in the second theme sostenuto, you start out faster then before!  Maybe you're afraid the whole notes won't ring out long enough.  And then when you come to bar 57, for example, you slow down way too much.  You have to have a constant pulse that can vary from a rallentando to an accelerando, but the underlying beat is CONSTANT.  This is what gives unity to the piece.
I know it's difficult, but you have to make the right rhythm heard in the opening.  It tends to sound like the following repetition where the beat does fall 3rd eighth note.  You have to accent the second eighth note in the opening to get that agitato feeling.
The closing triplet motif in the last part of the expo, are all legato.  You detach the upbeat and then slur the second two.  No, they have to be legato.  And don't slow down the last 8 bars.  Keep it in time.
The development was wonderful.   Slow, but wonderful.  You played that climax exactly how I want to hear it.  Bass notes, first;  r.h. second;  and the inner notes last in importance.  A little too fast those descending passages in the last bars of the development.  But a wonderful diminuendo. 
The same comments for the recap.  In the coda, keep it going!  don't slow down.  Keep the beat steady throughout the stretto.
There are 2 notes I'm not so sure of.  It might be me.  In bar 72 I heard a b-natural in the last note of the left-hand.  measure 121, the bottom note is b-flat.  I thought I heard natural.
Comunque, bravo!
Sono molto più grande di te.  Ho studiato con DeMargheriti, Silvestri, Agosti, and Vitale. (l'ultimo era a Santa Cecilia per un'anno)  Ho fatto anche il corso a Positano con Kempff.  Abito fuori Roma.  Sono statunitense ma vivo qui da più di 40 anni.
Sono curioso di sentire il resto.  Adoro questa sonata.  Ho sentito Michelangeli alla sala Nervi.  Non hai idea cos'ha fatto con il 4° tempo!

Grazie! Davvero onorato!

Here's the scherzo (sorry for the leaps):

[birba]

Really very good.  You get over the technical difficulties with a flair.  Bravo.  You could make those leaps less dangerous if you don't play them so staccato.  Appoggiare, poi staccare.  Know what I mean?
Great repeated octaves.  Maybe a little more leggero nel tocco. 
Before bar 50, and similar passages, a slight stentato.  And then really play the following passage with a bouncy rhythm.
In the middle section, bring out the top note of the accompaniment a bit more, which you've probably noticed, is part of the following melody.  Then really bring out that descending passage in the left hand at bars 88-89 and passes to the r.h. in 90 -93.  The same in similar passages.
Before the recap at bars 186-189,   appogiare di più sulla seconda semiminima.  You sort of play them staccato.
Bar 261, I thought I heard an e-natural.
I wouldn't play the coda too slow.  At any rate,  strictly in time.