slow fingers

[BoliverAllmon]

then don't worship him.

[BoliverAllmon]

if you want to see where his holiness takes offense just start looking in the Hanon thread in student's corner and the beginning of this thread. I would copy and paste, but I am on a mac and I simply don't know how to.

boliver

[jazzyprof]

then don't worship him.

Hey you're the only one worshipping him.  You are the only one here who calls him God.

[BoliverAllmon]

actions speak louder than words, and mine are sarcastic.

[BoliverAllmon]

oh and if you want something else. i send him a PM asking about his 7/20 rule and what consists of "learned" he was agitated because everyone kept asking the same question. So yes he got pissed first.

boliver

[nick]

first i won't get injured. Secondly, you must have strength for increased speed. I am not talking about building up your fingers and hands so that you can crush bricks with one hand or anything. I am talking about the ability to make x amount of force to cause greater acceleration. You have to train to accomplish this. every other sport, or physical activities that are done in a professional way work out, or do some sort of exercises to help them perform better. a pitcher doesn't just throw a baseball to get better. He also throws a football (which is heavier and will help him increase speed with his fastball) works out, and runs all over the place. Golfer's work out there legs and torso religiously to increase strength and speed to achieve greater drives and club control. why should we be different?

I agree basically with Boliver. Unless one is looking for a soft tones when playing fast, without forte going to key bed, it takes greater strength to accomplish faster loud playing. No one said with this ability one will look like a he-man. It is not visible. Ligaments, tendons and hand muscles gain strength as a result of increased speed forte. If anyone disagrees that it takes more strength to play loud than soft, play softly at ones quickest accurate speed repeatedly for 10 minutes. Then continue forte and see if you notice anything different. I disagree that the difference is in coordination. No way. It takes strength gradually built up to handle it. You may notice some keys not going all the way down to key bed. Why? Not for lack of coordination, but strength. Please don't anyone bring up C.C. Chang nonsense.

Nick

[xvimbi]

I agree basically with Boliver. Unless one is looking for a soft tones when playing fast, without forte going to key bed, it takes greater strength to accomplish faster loud playing. No one said with this ability one will look like a he-man. It is not visible. Ligaments, tendons and hand muscles gain strength as a result of increased speed forte. If anyone disagrees that it takes more strength to play loud than soft, play softly at ones quickest accurate speed repeatedly for 10 minutes. Then continue forte and see if you notice anything different. I disagree that the difference is in coordination. No way. It takes strength gradually built up to handle it. You may notice some keys not going all the way down to key bed. Why? Not for lack of coordination, but strength. Please don't anyone bring up C.C. Chang nonsense.

You are slashing an entire "school of thought" regarding piano technique. This is not "C.C. Chang nonsense". Putting coordination over strength in ALL aspects of piano playing is not only favored by CC. He merely wrote a book where this principle is laid out nicely - and demystified. Most of the forum members support this approach. Most professional pianists favor this approach. Nobody I have talked to has put strength above coordination for fast virtusosic passages. No teacher, no pianist. Do yourself a favor and ask professional pianists around you how they see it. Ask what they think about injuries. You will find yourself in the minority. Assume for a moment that there are good reasons for that.

One more thing, ligaments can't gain strength. If anything, they deteriorate when used. Tendons can't gain strength, either. There is only one thing that can happen to tendons: they can lengthen. This is a terrible condition that you don't want to have.

There is, however, one aspect that complicates the issue: usually, with better technique acquired over years, comes more strength. It is very difficult to deconvolute those two aspects. Pianists do have better developed muscles, just by using them more often, but are they really necessary? In other words, the question comes down to: does one need to do strength training in order to improve (a certain) technique? With strength training, I don't mean weight lifting, I mean anything, even piano exercises, that is designed to increase strength.

I don't know how often one needs to say this: there is nothing wrong with strength, per se. However, used incorrectly, excessive strength is the single most important source for pianists' injuries. In fact, all these injuries can formally be traced back to applying too much force in a wrong way. You and Boliver believe you can "get away" with it and not get injured along the way. If you have flawless technique, there will be no problem. Statistics says you have a very slim chance.

[xvimbi]

the farther the ball goes is a direct coorelation to how fast they swung. No, we aren't pushing the keys farther down. Instead we need speed to go down scale passages with great speed. Look at Rubinstein's hands. They look like bricks, very strong and sturdy. i agree Argerich has very strong hands also.

Ok. Let's investigate this a bit further. Increasing speed in piano playing is nothing else than decreasing the delay between consecutive notes. Therefore, the baseball analogy cannot be used, because we are not asking how fast the hitter can "reload" and swing again. But if we want to use this analogy for a moment, we notice that if he swings with more force, it will take him longer to reload. Translated to piano, this means that for very fast passages, the motions must be very small, because the fingers need to come up again quickly. One could even argue, that it is impossible to go all the way down to the keybed for all notes in fast passages.

In any case, a much better analogy is cycling. If we adjust the resiatance of a bycicle so that it is trivial (i.e. similarly trivial as the resistance of a piano key) and look at how cyclists achive the highest frequency, we find that it is all about coordination. All cyclists do is to move their legs from the hips, keep the knees steady, and rotate in the ankles. Most of their efforts is spent on making sure no superfluous muscle is engaged, no upper body wiggleing, no getting out of the saddle. It is about efficient motions that get you to higher frequencies. There are many cyclists who are much stronger than Lance Armstrong, who have more endurance than Lance Armstrong, yet Lance Armstrong beats them all. The same is true for rowing and anything else that requires repetitive motions.

Coming back to piano playing: How come that there are plenty of kids who can play the Minute-Waltz flawlessly and with great speed?

[jazzyprof]

I totally agree with xvimbi on this.  In fact, as Chang points out in his book, you can play a passage of serially ordered notes at infinite speed by playing those notes in parallel, as a chord.  You do that simply by coordinating the action of all the fingers, reducing the phase angle between the fingers to zero, within your margin of error.  If strength was what you needed in order to play infinitely fast, it would require infinite strength to play a chord.

[BoliverAllmon]

tendons and ligaments do get stronger. I don't know where you heard that crock. Also, if you want to use cyclist we can. The way that cyclist go faster revolutions is a combination of strength, coordination, and speed. A cyclist must have all of his fast-twitch muscles firing at the faster possible rate. Now in training the way he does this is by going as fast as possible with more resistance. His legs are trained to move very quickly with a far less trivial weight. Therefore when he goes back to the trivial resistance, his legs are able to produce the force necessary to achieve even greater speed. This is true in runners and any other physical speed sport.

boliver

[jazzyprof]

This is true in runners and any other physical speed sport.
boliver

Playing the piano is not a sport.

        It is an art.

[BoliverAllmon]

as is ice skating, but is sitll considered a sport. the same ideas that apply to speed in sports applies to speed in everything.

[xvimbi]

tendons and ligaments do get stronger. I don't know where you heard that crock.

It's really funny, because you don't realize that, just to object to what I and others are saying, you support ludicrous claims and contradictions. One example: if you want to increase flexibility around joints, the last thing you want is more ligament, as ligaments inhibit movement. That's their whole purpose! Likewise, if you think the tendons in a normal, healthy person are too weak to play the piano and need to be strengthened, you are dearly misguided.

The ball is in your court: show me studies that support these claims. I can be convinced, but I cannot be persuaded.

[bernhard]

tendons and ligaments do get stronger. I don't know where you heard that crock.

It's really funny, because you don't realize that, just to object to what I and others are saying, you support ludicrous claims and contradictions. One example: if you want to increase flexibility around joints, the last thing you want is more ligament, as ligaments inhibit movement. That's their whole purpose! Likewise, if you think the tendons in a normal, healthy person are too weak to play the piano and need to be strengthened, you are dearly misguided.

The ball is in your court: show me studies that support these claims. I can be convinced, but I cannot be persuaded.

Xvimbi:

Why waste time?

Here is an interesting piece of information that should put an end to this misguided exchange that is being fuelled by a mixture of pride, ignorance of the issues involved (not for lack of efforts to illuminate) and stubbornness.

It is to be found in this thread:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,936.msg6355.html#msg6355
(reply 7)

I am going to use this as an opportunity to say, LEARN PROPER TECHNIQUE!!!!!!!!!! I developed tendonitis a while back from playing baseball. IT SUCKS!!!! You can't do anything with your arm for what seems like an eternity. I spent my last piano lesson working entirely on technique to prevent the reoccurence of tendontitis.

Boliver Allmon

I find this quote even more interesting since in reply #40 of the present thread he claimed with great assurance that:

first i won't get injured.

You cannot really argue with someone who has no intellectual honesty.

By the way, I liked “I can be convinced but I can’t be persuaded” I must remember that!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

Why waste time?

You are right. I was just telling this to myself. However, as you have stated before a few times, there are people who follow these threads and who may take the presented information for granted. It is important to let them know when something is wrong or when there is more to consider.

[xvimbi]

You cannot really argue with someone who has no intellectual honesty.

Oh yes, thanks for pointing this out about BoliverAllmon. It was pretty evident from his recent contributions, but I wasn't aware of his earlier ones. I would certainly not have bothered conversing with him.

[jazzyprof]

You cannot really argue with someone who has no intellectual honesty.

Oh yes, thanks for pointing this out about BoliverAllmon. It was pretty evident from his recent contributions, but I wasn't aware of his earlier ones. I would certainly not have bothered conversing with him.

It turns out he's a 20-year old guy in Houston who knows everything.  Now I completely understand his posts and am sorry to have wasted breath.

[faulty_damper]

actually, i played baseball and we learn to swing harder and faster, by swinging a weighted bat. You warm up with 2 bats, to loosen up the muscles.

boliver

No, you do not "loosen the muscles" by swingin the bat.  What you are doing is using motor unit recruitment.  This means that when your muscles are required to contract to move an object, it will contract only the necessary muscles to do so.  If you need to contract the muscles with more force then more muscles will be recruited to allow you to do so.  But once you stop contracting to move the heavier object and contract to move a lighter object, those recruited muscles will still be active and thus the lighter object will seem even lighter.

(I really need to just insert a link to past posts instead.)

Lift 1 pound.
Then lift 5 pounds.
Lift the 1 pound again.
1 pound feel much lighter than before.

This is motorunit recruitment.  Simple, concise, and effective! (if you even try it.)

[faulty_damper]

tendons and ligaments do get stronger. I don't know where you heard that crock. Also, if you want to use cyclist we can. The way that cyclist go faster revolutions is a combination of strength, coordination, and speed. A cyclist must have all of his fast-twitch muscles firing at the faster possible rate. Now in training the way he does this is by going as fast as possible with more resistance. His legs are trained to move very quickly with a far less trivial weight. Therefore when he goes back to the trivial resistance, his legs are able to produce the force necessary to achieve even greater speed. This is true in runners and any other physical speed sport.

boliver

The way a cyclist rides faster does not depend only on strength, coordination, and speed.  (Oxymoron?)  It does not even depend of how much of his fast-twitch muscles have been developed.

In training, a cyclist will start riding very slowly for long hours at a time.  He will not be training by riding fast.  He will not be gasping for air.  He will do this for a couple of months, usually 3 months.  This is what is commonly called "base training".

After training, he will start to concentrate on aspects of cycling that will be needed:  climbing, time trialing, sprinting.

Climbing and time trialing does not require much use of having fast-twicth fibers.  It requires slow-twitch fibers.  Usually, cyclists who are good at one or the other are absolutely horrible at sprinting and vice versa.  It is having developed slow-twitch muscles suited to doing these things that are more important.


"His legs are trained to move very quickly with a far less trivial weight. Therefore when he goes back to the trivial resistance, his legs are able to produce the force necessary to achieve even greater speed. This is true in runners and any other physical speed sport. "

Not entirely accurate.  Please see my previous post on motor-unit recruitment.

What ever happened to chopinfiles?

[Brian Healey]

Keep in mind that the idea of finger strength is a myth. Your fingers have no muscles, they are moved by the muscles in the forearm. Finger independance is one thing, but I think "finger strength" is usually a step toward developing an injury. The fingers that you think are stronger are really just more independant. Also know that your fourth and fifth fingers share a ligament, so they are naturally less independant than the others, that's why it can be difficult at first to move each one individually. Playing the piano doesn't require any strength anyway, so why worry about it? Correct wrist motion, arm weight, and gravity are the only things you need to play as powerfully as you want to play.

[nick]

. Playing the piano doesn't require any strength anyway, so why worry about it? Correct wrist motion, arm weight, and gravity are the only things you need to play as powerfully as you want to play.

I think it requires more strenght using arm weight to play loud and fast than it does to play soft.

Nick

[BoliverAllmon]

tendons and ligaments do get stronger. I don't know where you heard that crock.

It's really funny, because you don't realize that, just to object to what I and others are saying, you support ludicrous claims and contradictions. One example: if you want to increase flexibility around joints, the last thing you want is more ligament, as ligaments inhibit movement. That's their whole purpose! Likewise, if you think the tendons in a normal, healthy person are too weak to play the piano and need to be strengthened, you are dearly misguided.

The ball is in your court: show me studies that support these claims. I can be convinced, but I cannot be persuaded.

Xvimbi:

Why waste time?

Here is an interesting piece of information that should put an end to this misguided exchange that is being fuelled by a mixture of pride, ignorance of the issues involved (not for lack of efforts to illuminate) and stubbornness.

It is to be found in this thread:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,936.msg6355.html#msg6355
(reply 7)

I am going to use this as an opportunity to say, LEARN PROPER TECHNIQUE!!!!!!!!!! I developed tendonitis a while back from playing baseball. IT SUCKS!!!! You can't do anything with your arm for what seems like an eternity. I spent my last piano lesson working entirely on technique to prevent the reoccurence of tendontitis.

Boliver Allmon

I find this quote even more interesting since in reply #40 of the present thread he claimed with great assurance that:

first i won't get injured.

You cannot really argue with someone who has no intellectual honesty.

By the way, I liked “I can be convinced but I can’t be persuaded” I must remember that!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

hey dipwad. why don't you read that. i got injured playing baseball NOT PIANO. I know what my hands can and cannot take now. I have learned from it. Do you want to know what technique I was having to learn that week? Concentrating really hard on not letting the wrists collapse. I have worked real hard on technique and have learned to listen to my body. Therefore I won't get injured.

the post about baseball swinging is not completely true. Watch a baseball player, they are doing arm swings with the heavy bat also. WHY? so they can loosen up.

cyclists start with a base program, so as not to hurt themselves. They have to train there muscles to be used more than they are used to. After that they start working on the other aspects of training.

boliver

[Floristan]

Thank you Bernard, xvimbi, jazzy professor, faulty damper, et al. for taking the time to explain all this.  I'm new to this forum, and appreciate this strong discussion.  I am impressionable and could have easily been led astray by this finger muscle discussion, but you guys put me on the right path.  I believe it's the right path because virtually everything you say (here and in other threads) totally supports what I'm learning from my teacher.  So thanks!

[Brian Healey]

I think it requires more strenght using arm weight to play loud and fast than it does to play soft.

Well, I agree that it takes more weight to play loud and fast, but not more strength. To play loud, I think you should just allow gravity to pull the weight of your arm more firmly into the key bed. As for playing fast, the notion of "strength" to me suggests effort and tension, when what you should be striving for is relaxation and effortless movement. To me, the faster the tempo gets, the more relaxed I should be. Finger independance should be practiced, and will help fast tempos sound more clean, but I just don't feel that strength has anything to do with it.

I think the idea of finger independence gets confused with the myth of "finger strength".

[mosis]

What ever happened to chopinfiles?

It turned into a cesspool of people not welcome at Piano Forum.

[rlefebvr]

the post about baseball swinging is not completely true. Watch a baseball player, they are doing arm swings with the heavy bat also. WHY? so they can loosen up.

boliver

Not to piss on the parade  you refuse to let go off, but that statement is also slightly wrong. You use the weights  so when you get to the plate, the bat feels lighter and you can swing faster. This is really just a mind trick, but it does work wonders. Also, the batters box should be used to time your swing as the pitcher throws the ball, so when you get to bat, you know how fast to swing at the fast-ball. At least that is the hope.

Baseball, gotta love....oh wait this is a piano forum, maybe we should simply start a baseball thread or something.

Sorry, Boliver, just could not resist. You have made some fair comments that have been called into question and that is o.k. on both sides, but you have also reverted to name calling and to making this very personal and that is totally wrong.

[nick]

I think it requires more strenght using arm weight to play loud and fast than it does to play soft.

Well, I agree that it takes more weight to play loud and fast, but not more strength. To play loud, I think you should just allow gravity to pull the weight of your arm more firmly into the key bed. As for playing fast, the notion of "strength" to me suggests effort and tension, when what you should be striving for is relaxation and effortless movement. To me, the faster the tempo gets, the more relaxed I should be. Finger independance should be practiced, and will help fast tempos sound more clean, but I just don't feel that strength has anything to do with it.

I think the idea of finger independence gets confused with the myth of "finger strength".

The reason I say strength to play loud AND fast is because if you play at a slower loud speed for awhile, then start speeding up repeating, there comes a point where it is obviously more difficult, that you can feel the 'work' and effort. After some time, maybe days, it becomes more comfortable, or rather, easier, and then you can play a bit faster with the same feeling or degree of effort as was the earlier slightly slower speed.  It does not appear to me the reason is because of gained coordination. It 'feels' like strength. The weight of the arm surely causes muscles to work harder than with less weight, one can feel this. And the increased speed causes more intensity into the equation. Only once can I say I ever had the opportunity to ask a concert pianist how he practiced for speed. I asked the pianist Pascal Roge during the intermission of a piano concerto by Saint Saens. He said he never pushes for speed, and only practices slowly, for the purpose of gaining strength and control. (His words not mine)  He said the only time he plays fast is for a performance. I have not had success with only slow practice. The longer I play slowly, the slower I play. I have great strength, but not speed. I seem to need gradual increases to get to where I need in speed. He is French so maybe he wanted to mess me up. Maybe it works for him.
I find that it is best to find the fastest speed I can play perfect with full loud tone that can be repeated without pain. If there is pain, the speed is too fast. Slowing down a bit until I can repeat. Once at correct speed, stay there for a day or so then move up a bit. So I don't associate strength with tension. As a matter of fact, if there is tension there will be less strength as the fingers will eventually just stop if repeating a passage.

Nick

 

[xvimbi]

The reason I say strength to play loud AND fast is because if you play at a slower loud speed for awhile, then start speeding up repeating, there comes a point where it is obviously more difficult, that you can feel the 'work' and effort. After some time, maybe days, it becomes more comfortable, or rather, easier, and then you can play a bit faster with the same feeling or degree of effort as was the earlier slightly slower speed.  It does not appear to me the reason is because of gained coordination. It 'feels' like strength.

I find it highly unlikely that you can appreciably build up muscle, i.e. strength within a few days. I still think that you've learned to relax, which takes time, and you perceive the decrease in tension as 'gain in strength'. That is natural, because initially, you have the feeling that you need to work harder, because you have to work against your own tensions. Once they are gone, you have the feeling that you are stronger, but only because the added resistance is gone, not because you gained in strength. It is psychologically very analogous to the baseball hitter situation.

You can test this: after having mastered such a passage, if you then play a different fast passage, do you have problems again? If strength was the solution, you should have acquired it by now, and you should not have any problems. Instead, I bet, you do indeed have problems with new passages (who doesn't), which would tell me that you haven't identified the correct motions and mastered them yet and that indeed coordination is the problem.

So far, still no "strength believer" has explained to me how it comes that there are plenty of kids that can play the fastest, virtuosic passages without apparent effort. They certainly don't feel strength is a necessity.

[Piazzo22]

So far, still no "strength believer" has explained to me how it comes that there are plenty of kids that can play the fastest, virtuosic passages without apparent effort. They certainly don't feel strength is a necessity.

Well, children has little muscles but their whole body is small, their hands too. So their muscles are developing too. I don´t understand your point.
Anyway all virtuoso children play with much difficulty than virtuoso adults. And they don´t sound the same in fast passages.

[Ed Thomas]

My regular work now is blacksmithing.  I probably have some of the strongest hands and arms here.   That strength hasn't done anything to help my playing that I can tell.  It has, however, made it a lot easier for me to move my piano around the room.

[Brian Healey]

I asked the pianist Pascal Roge during the intermission of a piano concerto by Saint Saens. He said he never pushes for speed, and only practices slowly, for the purpose of gaining strength and control.

Well, you know, I think we're agreeing here more than it would seem. What you and Roge might call "strength", I would call agility and accuracy. In my opinion, everybody has the ability to play fast as soon they touch the piano for the first time. It's the lack of accuracy that slows the speed down. What allows you to actually play fast is the ability to drop your fingers in the right place along the way, and that comes with practice at a slow and gradually increasing speed. Agility also plays a part, much like it does for a sprinter. You don't have to be strong to sprint well, you just have to be able to move your legs fast.

So, when Roge practices at slow speeds, he may say that he's working on strength, but I say he's really just working on accuracy. I think it just comes down to a difference in terminology.

[BoliverAllmon]

The reason I say strength to play loud AND fast is because if you play at a slower loud speed for awhile, then start speeding up repeating, there comes a point where it is obviously more difficult, that you can feel the 'work' and effort. After some time, maybe days, it becomes more comfortable, or rather, easier, and then you can play a bit faster with the same feeling or degree of effort as was the earlier slightly slower speed.  It does not appear to me the reason is because of gained coordination. It 'feels' like strength.

I find it highly unlikely that you can appreciably build up muscle, i.e. strength within a few days. I still think that you've learned to relax, which takes time, and you perceive the decrease in tension as 'gain in strength'. That is natural, because initially, you have the feeling that you need to work harder, because you have to work against your own tensions. Once they are gone, you have the feeling that you are stronger, but only because the added resistance is gone, not because you gained in strength. It is psychologically very analogous to the baseball hitter situation.

You can test this: after having mastered such a passage, if you then play a different fast passage, do you have problems again? If strength was the solution, you should have acquired it by now, and you should not have any problems. Instead, I bet, you do indeed have problems with new passages (who doesn't), which would tell me that you haven't identified the correct motions and mastered them yet and that indeed coordination is the problem.

So far, still no "strength believer" has explained to me how it comes that there are plenty of kids that can play the fastest, virtuosic passages without apparent effort. They certainly don't feel strength is a necessity.

kids that are like this have been playing for years and there fingers have strengthened over time.

boliver

[nick]

The reason I say strength to play loud AND fast is because if you play at a slower loud speed for awhile, then start speeding up repeating, there comes a point where it is obviously more difficult, that you can feel the 'work' and effort. After some time, maybe days, it becomes more comfortable, or rather, easier, and then you can play a bit faster with the same feeling or degree of effort as was the earlier slightly slower speed.  It does not appear to me the reason is because of gained coordination. It 'feels' like strength.

I find it highly unlikely that you can appreciably build up muscle, i.e. strength within a few days. I still think that you've learned to relax, which takes time, and you perceive the decrease in tension as 'gain in strength'. That is natural, because initially, you have the feeling that you need to work harder, because you have to work against your own tensions. Once they are gone, you have the feeling that you are stronger, but only because the added resistance is gone, not because you gained in strength. It is psychologically very analogous to the baseball hitter situation.

You can test this: after having mastered such a passage, if you then play a different fast passage, do you have problems again? If strength was the solution, you should have acquired it by now, and you should not have any problems. Instead, I bet, you do indeed have problems with new passages (who doesn't), which would tell me that you haven't identified the correct motions and mastered them yet and that indeed coordination is the problem.

So far, still no "strength believer" has explained to me how it comes that there are plenty of kids that can play the fastest, virtuosic passages without apparent effort. They certainly don't feel strength is a necessity.

Interesting point of view Xvimbi. I like that. Have you noticed that when you are thoroughly warmed up, have worked on your piece in parts almost up to tempo, and then after a slight pause play it through, the feeling is of strength since it feels easy. I never think, boy do I feel coordinated. And before I even warmed up I felt relaxed, but not ready. Seems to me muscles are involved that gain in strength. Not the kind of strength that builds muscle. Kind of like those weight lifters that must not gain any weight but only gain strength. Even a day or so of practice at the upper end of perfect loud speed I think is the result of a slight gain in the strength needed to play at that speed.

I also have noticed that after a performance, when I start a piece I have played before many times, that I am almost where I need to be speed wise.  One might say it is because I already knew the movements and coordination, but I don't think so. Proof is if I don't practice for a good while, it takes me soooo much longer to get there.

I have not seen many children really good, and the best was a 10 year old that played the great classics very well. But his playing on the loud fast passages lacked.. excuse the term, strength, or power. I am sure he will get there eventually.

The other comment by a member that Roge meant accuracy and not strength I disagree with. I have at one point practiced slowly for months and when trying it fast it was not good. I had plenty of accuracy, but not speed.

Nick

[xvimbi]

Interesting point of view Xvimbi. I like that. Have you noticed that when you are thoroughly warmed up, have worked on your piece in parts almost up to tempo, and then after a slight pause play it through, the feeling is of strength since it feels easy. I never think, boy do I feel coordinated. And before I even warmed up I felt relaxed, but not ready. Seems to me muscles are involved that gain in strength. Not the kind of strength that builds muscle. Kind of like those weight lifters that must not gain any weight but only gain strength. Even a day or so of practice at the upper end of perfect loud speed I think is the result of a slight gain in the strength needed to play at that speed.

Alright, we are getting closer to the issue. What you are describing is not "strength". You say, you have the "feeling of increased strength", but it's only a feeling. As faulty pointed out before, this is purely psychological. If you hold a one-gallon bottle of water upside down with your arm extended and let the water run out, your arm will move upwards as the water runs out - not because you have gained strength within these few seconds, but because the weight of the bottle has become smaller. Your muscles, however, still expect the heavier weight; they can't adjust that quickly. You feel stronger because the resistance has disappeared. Same thing with the baseball batter who practices with a heavier weight.

This even works with weights that don't change, e.g. your keyboard action. If you play for the first time through a passage that feels heavy, your muscles will feel overburdened. The next time you play through it, however, your muscles "know" what to expect, so they will be ready. I believe this is what you are describing. The muscles definitely don't gain strength within a few minutes, not even within a couple of days - that is physiologically impossible. Instead, you have figured out a way to make efficient use of them and to focus their strength, e.g. by removing counter-acting muscle action. This is what is called coordination. These muscles have "realized" that they are called upon, so they are ready the next time you play through the passage (this is the meaning of "warming up your muscles"). However, after a few days, they have forgotten that they need to be active in a certain passage, so you have to "remind" them again. They certainly haven't lost strength, as you have most likely been playing through other passages in the meantime.

So, in a nutshell, you are clearly not talking about increased strength, but increased coordination. You should think this way too, because it will focus your practicing routine better. Once you realize that it is not strength that you are talking about, you will not waste time doing (potentially injurous) strength-building exercises.

[Brian Healey]

The other comment by a member that Roge meant accuracy and not strength I disagree with. I have at one point practiced slowly for months and when trying it fast it was not good. I had plenty of accuracy, but not speed.

Sorry if I implied that accuracy equals speed. There are other factors that go into playing fast, I just don't think strength is one of them. I still believe that even though he said it himself, Roge is not really practicing strength when he plays pieces slow.

For instance, pretend you are an archer. Your accuracy is great, and you can hit a bullseye on a stationary target easily on cue. This is the equivalent of practicing at a slow speed. You fine-tune your mechanics and accuracy with the instrument. Now pretend that someone grabbed your target and started running with it, so now you have to shoot a moving target. All of a sudden your accuracy flies out the window, and you can't hit a bullseye to save your life. That was what happened in your case, when you practiced the piece slowly, then all of a sudden tried to play it fast. Getting back to the archer for a moment, he starts practicing shooting at a very slowly moving target at first, and gradually increases the speed. Pretty soon, he can hit bulleyes all day long on the quickly moving target. Is he any stronger now that he can do that? Of course, not. To play fast, you need to be accurate while moving, and to do that you start slow and gradually increase the speed as it becomes more comfortable.

As far as Roge, I'd be willing to bet that when he said he practices all his pieces slow, he was talking about pieces he already knew. He can already play them at the correct tempo, so now he simply practices them slow to fine-tune his mechanics.

[super_ardua]

Theres very little need for finger strength.  If your position is correct you can generate a lot of force.  Yes,  you do move your fingers,  but that is stamina which is needed, not strength.

[BoliverAllmon]

stamina is a form of strength

[nick]

Interesting point of view Xvimbi. I like that. Have you noticed that when you are thoroughly warmed up, have worked on your piece in parts almost up to tempo, and then after a slight pause play it through, the feeling is of strength since it feels easy. I never think, boy do I feel coordinated. And before I even warmed up I felt relaxed, but not ready. Seems to me muscles are involved that gain in strength. Not the kind of strength that builds muscle. Kind of like those weight lifters that must not gain any weight but only gain strength. Even a day or so of practice at the upper end of perfect loud speed I think is the result of a slight gain in the strength needed to play at that speed.

Alright, we are getting closer to the issue. What you are describing is not "strength". You say, you have the "feeling of increased strength", but it's only a feeling. As faulty pointed out before, this is purely psychological. If you hold a one-gallon bottle of water upside down with your arm extended and let the water run out, your arm will move upwards as the water runs out - not because you have gained strength within these few seconds, but because the weight of the bottle has become smaller. Your muscles, however, still expect the heavier weight; they can't adjust that quickly. You feel stronger because the resistance has disappeared. Same thing with the baseball batter who practices with a heavier weight.

This even works with weights that don't change, e.g. your keyboard action. If you play for the first time through a passage that feels heavy, your muscles will feel overburdened. The next time you play through it, however, your muscles "know" what to expect, so they will be ready. I believe this is what you are describing. The muscles definitely don't gain strength within a few minutes, not even within a couple of days - that is physiologically impossible. Instead, you have figured out a way to make efficient use of them and to focus their strength, e.g. by removing counter-acting muscle action. This is what is called coordination. These muscles have "realized" that they are called upon, so they are ready the next time you play through the passage (this is the meaning of "warming up your muscles"). However, after a few days, they have forgotten that they need to be active in a certain passage, so you have to "remind" them again. They certainly haven't lost strength, as you have most likely been playing through other passages in the meantime.

So, in a nutshell, you are clearly not talking about increased strength, but increased coordination. You should think this way too, because it will focus your practicing routine better. Once you realize that it is not strength that you are talking about, you will not waste time doing (potentially injurous) strength-building exercises.

This appears like the overcompensation issue. I see that in life with the water jug example and the batter. But I don't see it with the piano unless one raised fingers very high while playing so that when they are close to the keys it feels much easier. Or practice with much more weight than needed so that less weight will feel easier.  The reason it feels easier may be as you say, but possibly because the fingers raised higher than needed used muscles more than with closer fingers, and of course the batter maybe developed more strength as a result of the ritual of a weighted bat. Not sure.













I never do strength building exercises on the piano, only the weight room. Very interesting subject though. I am still chewing on it. What is clear is the need to gradually move up in tempo without strain, loud tone to key bottom.  It may not be important but only for discussion or intellectual stimulation as to the cause of the increase. Most important point is that it works.

Brian, I think Roge did mean strength since he mentioned it twice, and the need to, as he put it, increase strength and control. His strong French accent made me reword the question to make sure he understood me correctly and he was emphatic. He stressed that he never played fast unless he had to, at which point he pointed to the stage. I couldn't wait to get home and just practice slowly for months! When I tried playing fast I sucked! No way. I had fingers of steel and could really play well SLOWLY. You apparently produce how you practice.

Nick

[Brian Healey]

Brian, I think Roge did mean strength since he mentioned it twice, and the need to, as he put it, increase strength and control. His strong French accent made me reword the question to make sure he understood me correctly and he was emphatic. He stressed that he never played fast unless he had to, at which point he pointed to the stage. I couldn't wait to get home and just practice slowly for months! When I tried playing fast I sucked! No way. I had fingers of steel and could really play well SLOWLY. You apparently produce how you practice.

Well, you would certainly know better than me what he said, since I wasn't there. Apparently what he does works for him, but I would think at some point that he would have to practice maintaining his control at faster speeds. I know if I did that, everything would fall apart as soon as I started to play fast, unless I had built up to that speed gradually.

As far as the strength part of it, he might have meant strength, but maybe a different definition of "strength". The reason I say that is because I don't know how playing more slowly will increase your strength. Now I myself don't believe that strength plays a role in playing the piano, but supposing for all intents and purposes that it does, I would tend to think that playing everything slowly would do absolutely nothing in terms of increasing strength. Did he go into any more detail about?

[m]

i have been playing for 12 years done my exams and, i do well, play big pieces, practice scales half an hour every day, my piano has stiff keys so my fingers get a good workout, but the biggest problem is my fingers just dont move, how can i strengthen my fingers? is it the way i practice my scales? do i practice them wrong? my teacher wont let me do any etudes until i can play my scales properly 
HELP!  

If you have been playing for 12 years you have to have good technique, have a good contact with keyboard, and have "fast" fingers. The first thing comes to mind is that you most probably do something wrong practicing, and most likely your whole approach to technique should be rethought.
There are many different schools of technique and many different approaches. I am for one who believes in technique as a mental process--all technique is in ones head. And the most important thing is complete relaxation of all muscles. The finger strength is not a gross muscular strength, but ability to focus energy at very short moment of taking sound--some talented and well tought little kids can have more sound and velocity than some adults.

For the beginning I'd suggest you to make a few excesises. First, try to analyze very carefully what happens when you throw a stone. You will see that your hand is "naturally" relaxed all the time, except of very short moment right before the stone leaving your hand, when your hand gets maximum velocity. Right after that your hand falls down, completely relaxed.
Now try to do exactly the same on the keyboard. Put one hand on the keyboard (5 finger pattern). You should feel very relaxed and comfortable. Lift one finger as high as you can. All other fingers should be relaxed and feel comfortable. then lightly, but very energetically drop the finger into the key. As soon as the finger hits the bottom, immediately remove all the pressure, leaving only as much, as it is enough to hold the key down. Basically, you should feel that hitting the key and relaxation is the same. Once you hit the bottom, all other fingers should rest on the keys (esp. pinkie!). Any, even 1mm gap between your finger and key surface, means that there is some tension--not good. Still holding this key, lift the next finger and repeat the process. Once you hit the next key, the first finger should release the note. If other fingers "want to follow" the one you lift (esp. when you work with 3-4-5) let them do it--never strain your hand. Do it slowly, concentraiting only on very big sound, maximum velocity and lighteness of dropping finger, immediate relaxation, and most of all, feeling completely comfortable all the time. Do it hands separately. When you get used to this feeling, try a little bit faster. When you get comfortable, once again, little faster, and try to put it into rhythm. Very often it helps to say aloud in very strict rhythm "lift-play-lift-play". You should say it very shortly. At this point, already lift the finger with the same velocity, as if you drop it, and remember two things:
1) At all times, except when you lift the finger, all the finger should rest on the keys.
2) Hitting the bottom, and relaxation are the same.

When you feel very comfortable with that, try to play exactly the same way a scale, learn every passage in your pieces, etc., and start putting your hands together, with exactly the same feeling.

When it becomes your "second nature" try to do exactly the same, but now without  lifting fingers--right from the key surface. Your strokes will be much shorter, but the feeling of immediate relaxation should be the same. Hope it helps.

[Brian Healey]

Good idea, Marik. Kenny Werner talks about a similar five-finger exercise in his book "Effortless Mastery." One thing that he talks about is taking a two-week period of time and practicing nothing but the finger-dropping exercise for about 5-10 minutes per day. Of course, this is easier said than done because most of us have rehearsals, performances, are in school, etc.

It sounds crazy, but I tried this some time ago, and it was unbelievable. I practiced nothing except dropping my fingers effortlessly on the keys for 5-10 minutes per day. I didn't do it for the required two weeks, but I made it for about a week before I got called to do a gig. Even after only a week, though, I felt like a completely new player, and it felt like my fingers had minds of their own. It's like they were moving without me making them move. I tried playing the next day and the feeling was gone, but with practice you can get it back. The point of the exercise is to give your mind a new level of focus and to train your body to be relaxed and move effortlessly. I seriously recommend you check out "Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner if you're interested in this.

[Spatula]

Haha I love it, you say to practice hanon for the rest of what I think is eternity, and you give them "best wishes!" hahah that's classic!

[nick]

Brian, I think Roge did mean strength since he mentioned it twice, and the need to, as he put it, increase strength and control. His strong French accent made me reword the question to make sure he understood me correctly and he was emphatic. He stressed that he never played fast unless he had to, at which point he pointed to the stage. I couldn't wait to get home and just practice slowly for months! When I tried playing fast I sucked! No way. I had fingers of steel and could really play well SLOWLY. You apparently produce how you practice.

Well, you would certainly know better than me what he said, since I wasn't there. Apparently what he does works for him, but I would think at some point that he would have to practice maintaining his control at faster speeds. I know if I did that, everything would fall apart as soon as I started to play fast, unless I had built up to that speed gradually.

As far as the strength part of it, he might have meant strength, but maybe a different definition of "strength". The reason I say that is because I don't know how playing more slowly will increase your strength. Now I myself don't believe that strength plays a role in playing the piano, but supposing for all intents and purposes that it does, I would tend to think that playing everything slowly would do absolutely nothing in terms of increasing strength. Did he go into any more detail about?

No Brian, Roge didn't go into detail about his practice. I asked the question 'do you push for speed to get up to how fast I heard you play'? His response was never! Only practices slowly to build strength and control.  I  can see how slow practice builds strength if you use alot of arm weight on each finger. You can feel it after some time, how tired the hand feels in general. I think like you that only slow practice does nothing for speed as I have tried it for months at a time. Wasted effort, but discovered it doesn't work. Very gradual increase is the only method I found works for me. I really wanted the slow method to work because it is so easy. One must be careful not to let emotion dictate what the truth is. But one must experiment to find it.

Nick

[PaulNaud]

MARIK,

I tried to understand and put into practice what you said. It's just amazing!!! I feel more freedom in my playing. You're right about the Heavy playing, with the weight staying in the keys, results in the fingers “stucking” there and this leads to “heavy thinking”.

It's strange that I suspected it was my main problem but didn't put it into practice before. While my new teacher is trying to help me, he isn't able to explain it to me the right way like you did:

The energy of whole your body, starting from your toes GOT INTO THE CORE OF THE SOUND AND IMMEDITELY SHOULD BE RELEASED!!!

I'd like to ask you another question if you don't mind.
When you said in your last post:

Neuhaus says: "...lift up the fingers above the keys in order to feel their free and light momentum."

If you remember, I wrote somewhere earlier, I also make this kind of excersises with my students as a preliminary preparation stage.

Does it mean that in order to prepare a piano piece, I can start playing it entirely (once or twice) as described by Neuhaus???