Do you see a vision or scene when you play piano ?

[hfmadopter]

Also, how about your listeners ?

Do you see different visions for different pieces of music ?

Can we as pianists expand on that to gain further expression ?

I do see a vision with many pieces of music, all different. For instance, as examples. Playing Erik Satie's Gymnopedie 1, I see a city park in black and white basically. In the park there is a simple pathway, a tree and a park bench, it's wet out as if it has been raining. That picture is in the back of my mind, it's a simple picture until you explore it more deeply while not playing. Obviously I'm concentrating on notes, so it's not in the forefront. Upon further examination I have concluded that there is not another living thing in that scene but the tree and some well groomed grass. As soon as I start playing it though this vision is in the back of my mind. Oh and it's sized as if a photograph or painting in vertical positioning.

 My wife See's an old still movie where a guy is walking a woman home and she expects a kiss but doesn't get it. He walks away, she isn't sad but hopeful for another day. She also say's the piece makes her think melancholy or the word and mood there of. So the situation is not dire.

My other listeners come up with their own scenes .

David Nevue's, Winter Walk. I think woods, still Forrest and gentle snow. My oldest daughter sees ice skating ballerinas.

Playing my version of Stairway To Heaven all I get is singing the expression of the piece from within and almost a drummers feel of the pulse in that piece. A hint of a side profile of a singer I don't know. It's important to me to build the piece up one segment at a time. My grand daughter walks around half dancing to it with her eyes half shut. And my daughter-in-law sees people with candles outside at night.

What remains is, in the case of the player is there anything more to do with this information but simply let the vision be there ?

[birba]

That satie sounds like a Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds experience!
Kidding aside, i think if you can conjure up a picture or a story of the music you're playing, you're getting closer to the gist of what it's all about.  Arrau said you should always have a vision or image of what you're playing.  My teacher always asked me to put into words what i was playing.  And i dreaded those days.  I felt that music was music and nothing else, but tired to "humour" her none the less.  She never fell for it , of course, and insisted that if you didn't have that image of what you're playing you would never become an artist.

[dima_76557]

Do you see different visions for different pieces of music ?

Yes, but not during playing, only before or during process of practising. I think much about how to share this vision with future listeners (for me = timing of sound effects). I am not master yet, so during playing, I can only think about sound effects I have to do because thinking of abstract vision itself distracts attention and makes result worse.

[hfmadopter]

That satie sounds like a Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds experience!
Kidding aside, i think if you can conjure up a picture or a story of the music you're playing, you're getting closer to the gist of what it's all about.  Arrau said you should always have a vision or image of what you're playing.  My teacher always asked me to put into words what i was playing.  And i dreaded those days.  I felt that music was music and nothing else, but tired to "humour" her none the less.  She never fell for it , of course, and insisted that if you didn't have that image of what you're playing you would never become an artist.

I recall when I was younger and taking lessons that my vision was always pretty much the  same one. I saw a shiny grand piano with the top up in some mellow kind of lighting. These new ones are since returning to piano in the last ten months and playing a simpler repertoire than before I stopped playing . In some ways it's more relaxed now, I have not yet returned to the more complex repertoire I left off at. I'm enjoying this, not sure I want the complexity now ! Well, not yet anyway.

[hfmadopter]

Yes, but not during playing, only before or during process of practising. I think much about how to share this vision with future listeners (for me = timing of sound effects). I am not master yet, so during playing, I can only think about sound effects I have to do because thinking of abstract vision itself distracts attention and makes result worse.

I understand . These visions of mine are like a portrait blanketing what I am doing, with snapshots of a clearer vision at certain points and it goes away if the workout at the keys is intense. So it's like a mask or  half washed resolution in the back of my mind while playing. I'm very conscious of expression, I like to play pieces where I don't have to hold back much. Satie is about my limit on that. Yet there is a lot to be said for the performer who can hold back and deliver that perfect sense of longing in a piece too.

My personal thought is that it would not be good for the vision to take forefront. I suspect it is enough if it just exists. That's enough to set the mood or the other way around in some cases. You are playing in a way that creates the vision. That's more how it works for me, though once I have it I keep it, how ever it comes.

[ranniks]

Sometimes I do. Then my playing becomes that much better or worse.

[keyofc]

Yes - I do, sometimes.

I write my own music - and I definitely 'see' pictures.

But there are times when I just feel them intensely w/o the pictures.

I had the idea for multimedia when I was a teenager (that was before a lot of things
So I would also hear music when it wasn't playing, while observing people, life, etc.
I guess we all internalize music differently, but it's interesting to hear how others do.

I had a student - that saw different passages in different colors when she played them.

[hfmadopter]

Yes - I do, sometimes.

I had a student - that saw different passages in different colors when she played them.

Interesting to find out that other people have had somewhat of a similar experience. No shocker there of course but then again, one never knows..

As to the colors, that has been discussed here I believe. You might do a search if you are interested in that discussion. I wasn't involved with that one !

[kriatina]

I try to find out when and where a piece was composed,
the circumstances of the composer at that particular time,
and I from start there.

For example, whilst I studied the piece "Daphne"
from Anne Cromwell's Virginal Book,
I researched that Anne Cromwell was a (favourite) cousin of Oliver Cromwell
and "Daphne" (the title of the composition) was a beautiful nymph, daughter of the river-god.
Eros made Apollo fall in love with Daphne because of the fun  Apollo made
of the way Eros used his bow, his favourite weapon.
Daphne did not reciprocate Apollo's desires and she fled to the mountains,
where she was transformed into a laurel tree
and the tree is dedicated to Apollo.

I then put "Daphne" from Anne Cromwell's Virginal Book
in the context of Anne being Oliver Cromwell's favourite cousin...
and the fact that Oliver Cromwell put together a collection of keyboard instruments...
and Anne Cromwell being not only Cromwell's favourite cousin
but also a very keen amateur musician...

[hfmadopter]

I try to find out when and where a piece was composed,
the circumstances of the composer at that particular time,
but also a very keen amateur musician...

Interesting, and so from there you form a picture ?

[bernadette60614]

I'm not a gifted musician, but it is more often that I "see" the music itself.  The piece takes on its own dimension apart from what I might imagination based upon my experience or thoughts.

Oh, and I often see the stern face of my teacher....!

[kriatina]

Interesting, and so from there you form a picture ?

Hello, hfmadopter,
yes, when I have done my research on a piece,
I get a much better idea of how to “form a picture” about the piece...
and especially the “colours” of how the piece “wants to be painted”.

In the piece of “Daphne” for example, there a story being told,
and it also gives me the different angles of how to tell this story
and from which angle I could "paint" the different emotions of the story:
There are Daphne’s and/or Apollo’s angle ...
and there is also the mischievous angle of little Cupid...
The piece also contains “the chase of Daphne” from the story,
and naturally that wants to be played a little faster etc.
...and then there is the more solemn end of the story.

Of course, some titles have misleading titles from the start
like for example Beethoven’s “Moonshine Sonata” .

Do you think, I go into the right direction (as an adult beginner)
with my thorough research of the pieces ?

Thanks from Kristina.

[hfmadopter]

Hello, hfmadopter,
yes, when I have done my research on a piece,
I get a much better idea of how to “form a picture” about the piece...
and especially the “colours” of how the piece “wants to be painted”.

The piece also contains “the chase of Daphne” from the story,
and naturally that wants to be played a little faster etc.
...and then there is the more solemn end of the story.

Of course, some titles have misleading titles from the start
like for example Beethoven’s “Moonshine Sonata” .

Do you think, I go into the right direction (as an adult beginner)
with my thorough research of the pieces ?

Thanks from Kristina.

Wow, you take it to a level beyond my scenes ! Nice though .

I also agree that a title can influence the picture one forms.
David

[hfmadopter]

I'm not a gifted musician, but it is more often that I "see" the music itself.  The piece takes on its own dimension apart from what I might imagination based upon my experience or thoughts.

Oh, and I often see the stern face of my teacher....!

I don't know that this is a matter of being gifted or not. I was interested if people see a vision or picture while playing and obviously many do. Some in vivid detail, others a simple picture. And some may not be aware that they did and will discover, in deed they do !

Now you have added this other dimension aspect which is interesting in itself. It's starting to appear that maybe we all experience something besides the music in front of us.
David

[keyofc]

Very true !

Thanks, David, for starting the subject!
It's very interesting to hear how others experience music
as it's played.

Only thing - I feel sorry for Bernadette, is she's seeing the 'stern face of her teacher'
That's a picture I'd want to paint over.

[hfmadopter]

Very true !
Only thing - I feel sorry for Bernadette, is she's seeing the 'stern face of her teacher'
That's a picture I'd want to paint over.

Perhaps she sees that stern face for good reason.   Sorry Bernadette, couldn't resist !

[hfmadopter]

I have the Song Nocturne pretty much finished up. This is the song as originally done by the band Secret Garden. I'm playing it on my digital with concert grand and string accompaniment sounds and I'm just finishing up some trills and turns in it, otherwise it's done. However when I play it I don't see Nocturnal sights nor a garden, I see a full symphony orchestra on stage. A pattern developing in my visions is the lack of people. In this one it is just the instruments on stage in nice lighting as if sitting there ready for a concert.

I'm learning a second piece by them as well named, In Our Tears. Odd, with this one I get a serious nocturnal sense and visualize the name Chopin as I play it !

[kriatina]

Wow, you take it to a level beyond my scenes ! Nice though .

I also agree that a title can influence the picture one forms.
David

Thank you, David for your kind compliment.

Mind you, I have recently noticed that my knowledge about composers,
their life and my research/studies/thoughts about their pieces etc.
is ahead of my knowledge to study the piano as an adult-beginner ...
on my own... from scratch...
...and I am currently trying very hard to find a way there...

Kind regards from Kristina.

[m1469]

Sometimes during practice I do see a kind of scene or, when I think of a piece there is some kind of story with "pictures" in my mind about it ... just the thought of that piece, nearly involuntarily.  However, I don't really aim to portray this scene while I am playing.  The last two more formal performances I've given were very different for me as I had reached some other state while playing, where I couldn't remember even touching the keys or how they felt, I couldn't remember actually playing (though I remember some mistakes in spots and one particular decision), and was just conscious of ... something other than those things!  I was so conscious of this other thing, that it's as though I were nearly unconscious!  There has been something about that which has felt very right for me, and at this point I believe I would prefer to have that over portraying a scene.  

[bernadette60614]

Oh, my teacher comes from the "compliment them and they'll stop working" school of teaching.

She has spoken well of my progress to the program's director, but the most she's ever said to me:  "That wasn't terrible"!

[hfmadopter]

There has been something about that which has felt very right for me, and at this point I believe I would prefer to have that over portraying a scene.  

Do you think this situation you found yourself in is repeatable, in the sense that you have control over it ? Or is it more involuntary than that ?

The pictures, as you mentioned too, just come into my mind. I don't go searching for them.

I have other experiences as well but have not gone there in this thread. Something similar to what you mention but not so profound or profound in a different way.  Maybe we should start a thread on that kind of a subject matter at some point and see what the forum has to say.

[hfmadopter]

Thank you, David for your kind compliment.

Mind you, I have recently noticed that my knowledge about composers,
their life and my research/studies/thoughts about their pieces etc.
is ahead of my knowledge to study the piano as an adult-beginner ...
on my own... from scratch...
...and I am currently trying very hard to find a way there...

Kind regards from Kristina.

Kristina, this thread is for any and all regardless of level. I wish you nothing but the best in your studies, just keep working at it ! You are in good company here at pianostreet for when you have questions. Meanwhile, your take on what you see when playing or practicing is as welcome to me as a seasoned professionals experience.

Sometimes some of our most vivid discoveries were early on incidentally..
David

[hfmadopter]

Oh, my teacher comes from the "compliment them and they'll stop working" school of teaching.

She has spoken well of my progress to the program's director, but the most she's ever said to me:  "That wasn't terrible"!

I studied with three different music/piano/accordian teachers along the way, I don't recall any of them being particularly complimentary, FWIW. Their job is to find things wrong and work with you to fix them. They might say you got the lesson but to outright compliment seems to me was pretty rare. My main teacher as an adult had workshops. I figured her compliment to me was to save my work shop performance for last. That seemed to be her trend. Then you knew you were doing well in weekly class ! That and repertoire were the clues. Her flubbed up students didn't do a whole lot past Fur Elise and eventually dropped out. I've mentioned many times in the forums that she was a wonderful teacher though, because she was.

My accordian teacher I had back at the age of grade school I always thought was mad at me ! That fit right in with the fact that I thought my Dad was the same way a good part of the time. They should have been brothers. I just figured that's the way adult men were . So when I crashed my bicycle on a guys front lawn and he came running I thought, this guy is probably going to kill me ( for what ever reason, scuffing the lawn or something). I couldn't get untangled from that bike fast enough, hopped on and rode off with him yelling, are you all right !! Never a thought that he was concerned, I figured he thought I was crazy. Actually, he might have been correct in that thinking!

[m1469]

Do you think this situation you found yourself in is repeatable, in the sense that you have control over it ? Or is it more involuntary than that ?

Well, I can pinpoint some characteristics about what I was experiencing in the 24 hours before both of these performances (including right before and during), and the types of preparation I did for them, as well as the significance these performances seemed to have in my life.  But, it wasn't created by me, it was bigger than me yet exactly me all at once.  Since it was already a repeat experience in both of these more formal cases, I'd like to feel that I can find my way there as much as possible/needed and that perhaps there is a path.

[goldentone]

My teacher always asked me to put into words what i was playing.  And i dreaded those days.  I felt that music was music and nothing else, but tired to "humour" her none the less.  She never fell for it , of course, and insisted that if you didn't have that image of what you're playing you would never become an artist.

Do you believe she was right now that you are older?  I do not believe music needs a proxy to realize itself.

[hfmadopter]

 Since it was already a repeat experience in both of these more formal cases, I'd like to feel that I can find my way there as much as possible/needed and that perhaps there is a path.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind there is a path m1469.

[ted]

More when I am listening than playing I think, but there is an important distinction between imagining visual associations and actually seeing things. I can be sitting quietly, allowing the mind to run free with the music and suddenly, bang, I am somewhere else, amid a whole lot of detail, scenery, emotional ambiance and people I do not know. It is very vivid, sometimes memorably so, but has absolutely no plausible connection with the music itself, although it might have from that time forward ! It is as if I have fallen asleep and begun to dream, except that I am wide awake and very alert.

I also imagine visions with most music, but I do not construct the same one every time I hear the same music.

Neither of these effects normally occur during actual playing, which with me is almost an entirely abstract process, especially improvisation. I usually avoid permanent associations with any music as I find programmes more limiting than helpful - in general, there is the odd exception.

 

[hfmadopter]

I also imagine visions with most music, but I do not construct the same one every time I hear the same music.

Neither of these effects normally occur during actual playing, which with me is almost an entirely abstract process, especially improvisation. I usually avoid permanent associations with any music as I find programmed more limiting than helpful - in general, there is the odd exception.
 

That's an interesting account from the listening standpoint Ted. I can't say that I have experienced the same thing, though music can be very emotional to me.

Playing I tend not to see a vision either, during practice more so and while starting a new piece is when it generally introduces itself. If I do see one it's just there, it isn't a matter of calling it up, though as has been brought up I imagine some programming has taken place.. In performance, it's least likely to happen but something along the lines of what m1469 described ( not as profound) is more likely to happen. If any of that makes any sense !

David

[ted]

A similar, although much less frequent occurrence I experience while playing and listening is sudden olfactory recall. It is very startling when it happens, and often involves smells from the very distant past. At first I tended to think that something nearby was actually producing a real smell, but I soon realised that could not possibly be the case. For instance, earlier this week I was playing one of my old teacher's compositions and a very strong scent came to me. At once, I recognised it as the unique smell of his house and his teaching room in particular from fifty years ago. It was very real, not an imagined reconstruction; is the latter possible with smell anyway ?

Many years ago, I discerned an overpowering, very real, scent of flowers every time I played a certain piece of my own. It happened several times. I hunted high and low for the source, and in the end summoned my parents to the room and requested them to sniff. They couldn't smell a thing.

Yet another peculiar effect I have very often is what I can only surmise to be a highly developed but random associative memory. I can be playing something, doesn't matter what, and a certain moment triggers detailed recall of events which occurred a long time ago on another occasion when I reached that precise point. It is very unnerving actually. For instance, at a certain point in a piece, I might suddenly be deluged by the detailed memory of trivial background conversation when I was playing that section at a friend's piano party five years ago.

Like the visions, they are totally unpredictable but immensely detailed. Our brains are funny things.

[hfmadopter]

Like the visions, they are totally unpredictable but immensely detailed. Our brains are funny things.

Our brains are very funny things that they say we only know a tenth of our brains capability. We pianists challenge our brains, again they say, almost to the level of what a brain surgeon has to challenge his brain. If maybe in a bit different way. I'd say it's fair to assume that since we challenge our brains to this level, seemingly odd (to the average Joe or Jane walking the streets ) experiences might be expected.

Beyond this is the whole musicality and vibration philosophy. With pianos vibrating a whole lot of beautiful string resonance, I think this alone can trigger occurrences to the level of our very being ( being obviously can be something different to each of us). Now we get into spirituality as well ( inner and outer I might add). Or I do anyway and I'm sure many others here do as well but maybe don't want to come out with it in an open forum ! That's understandable since it can be very personal where the internet is not.

The scent thing that you experience , I experience in reverse. Scents can trigger memories in me, which is probably the more common response of scent association.. Yours sounds unique.

[ted]

But surely art, particularly music, is concerned with describing inner perception, visionary experience, personal consciousness, the soul (there we are, I have grasped the semantic nettle !) as much as science and reason is concerned with the commonality of external experience. When all is said and done, we still live in a complete mystery. No one has the remotest clue what consciousness is. Recent research has been able to correlate many features of consciousness to properties of the brain, but the central quale of inspissated perception is still utterly unfathomable.

Therefore I have never been what Priestley termed a "nothing but man". What are termed the numinous and the psychic are real internal experiences for me. They are inextricably woven into the fabric of my own musical creation. I vigorously embrace the crackpot and the woolly thinker in myself and I think I am a better man for it. People probably think my music is crackpot, but in a very real sense, is that not exactly what art, music, should be, a state of liberated perception in which we can be completely ourselves, gloriously and harmlessly mad ?   

[hfmadopter]

But surely art, particularly music, is concerned with describing inner perception, visionary experience, personal consciousness, the soul (there we are, I have grasped the semantic nettle !) as much as science and reason is concerned with the commonality of external experience. When all is said and done, we still live in a complete mystery. No one has the remotest clue what consciousness is. Recent research has been able to correlate many features of consciousness to properties of the brain, but the central quale of inspissated perception is still utterly unfathomable.

Therefore I have never been what Priestley termed a "nothing but man". What are termed the numinous and the psychic are real internal experiences for me. They are inextricably woven into the fabric of my own musical creation. I vigorously embrace the crackpot and the woolly thinker in myself and I think I am a better man for it. People probably think my music is crackpot, but in a very real sense, is that not exactly what art, music, should be, a state of liberated perception in which we can be completely ourselves, gloriously and harmlessly mad ?    

Well, that's laying all the cards on the table !

Edit:

Sorry I dropped this so quickly but the Grand kids were in and off we went to breakfast, then later chores etc.

Yes indeed, what you describe is art to the bone ! We all percieve music and Piano in our own way. That's why I can't discount anyones view, unless they are not sincere in what they speak of coures. It's also why I'm interested in those experiences and have done some reading on it as well.

[birba]

In fact, very eloquently said.

[tdawe]

Not at all: for me, the music is an entirely abstract concept... I feel strong emotions, but they aren't related to anything corporeal. I can empathise with your description of your feelings of the Satie, but that wouldn't occur to me whilst playing - my mind is completely "blank"

Very interesting to hear some of the other people's descriptions in this thread.

[hfmadopter]

Not at all: for me, the music is an entirely abstract concept... I feel strong emotions, but they aren't related to anything corporeal. I can empathise with your description of your feelings of the Satie, but that wouldn't occur to me whilst playing - my mind is completely "blank"

Very interesting to hear some of the other people's descriptions in this thread.

It can go that way for me too, I don't always have a picture or scene in my mind. I'm working on something now that has a kind of gospel yet western theme  running through it's arrangement. Mostly I get a sense of that western theme, a little thrill or excitement in a couple of passages. Overall it's soothing. If I see anything I can see three white cowboy hats on top of microphones on a dark lit stage. That image doesn't last though. This piece takes restrain to not just open up with it, one of those cases where less is more I guess ! You want to just let loose and then look at the score it says P, so maybe I over emphasize the crescendos, it has them coming in so as to produce this wave of volume. Anyway, keeping this under control doesn't leave a lot of time for to get a picture going.

[jollisg]

Sometimes i see visions. More often i imagine abstract things (like souls in dialogue). Most often i just have feelings. For example, i feel an extreme sadness or naiveness in some pieces. I feel more of characters, like "this is a mother figure", but i don't see the mother. I'm not that good at explaining it

[hfmadopter]

Sometimes i see visions. More often i imagine abstract things (like souls in dialogue). Most often i just have feelings. For example, i feel an extreme sadness or naiveness in some pieces. I feel more of characters, like "this is a mother figure", but i don't see the mother. I'm not that good at explaining it

Interesting. I will just say that there is much we don't know about the universe and the mind. I've certainly experienced my share of seemingly coincidental occurrences.

[ted]

After reading Priestley, Dunne, Huxley and others, I kept a diary of such "coincidences" for years with the object of explaining them, but they proved so numerous and inexplicable that it all became too much effort and I stopped. But a few years ago my son smuggled me into a lecture by the mathematician Ian Stewart, one of those rare people who, like Feynman and Hofstadter, has both great talent and the ability to teach and communicate lucidly. The talk was about the misleading character of subjective probability, for which purpose he used the common birthday coincidence paradox, wherein the actual likelihood of coincidence is much greater than one would suppose by intuitive reflection.

His general thrust, which is not a new notion, was that given the enormous quantity of internal and external data, large numbers of "psychic" coincidences, contrary to subjective probability, should be expected to occur.

Despite the comforting plausibility of this argument, and ignoring the natural desire to feel special, I slowly concluded that it was not really a satisfactory explanation of events in my past. Accordingly, I have now begun to say "this cannot be" a good deal less often in recent years and have begun keeping a diary again. Can we embrace beneficent mysticism without superstition ? How do we know which is which ? Huxley asked these question over fifty years ago and they still seems intractable.  

  

[hfmadopter]

After reading Priestley, Dunne, Huxley and others, I kept a diary of such "coincidences" for years with the object of explaining them, but they proved so numerous and inexplicable that it all became too much effort and I stopped. But a few years ago my son smuggled me into a lecture by the mathematician Ian Stewart, one of those rare people who, like Feynman and Hofstadter, has both great talent and the ability to teach and communicate lucidly. The talk was about the misleading character of subjective probability, for which purpose he used the common birthday coincidence paradox, wherein the actual likelihood of coincidence is much greater than one would suppose by intuitive reflection.

His general thrust, which is not a new notion, was that given the enormous quantity of internal and external data, large numbers of "psychic" coincidences, contrary to subjective probability, should be expected to occur.

Despite the comforting plausibility of this argument, and ignoring the natural desire to feel special, I slowly concluded that it was not really a satisfactory explanation of events in my past. Accordingly, I have now begun to say "this cannot be" a good deal less often in recent years and have begun keeping a diary again. Can we embrace beneficent mysticism without superstition ? How do we know which is which ? Huxley asked these question over fifty years ago and they still seems intractable.  

  

I can't answer all those questions. I can just state that you are reading a post from a simple someone who does not really believe that coincidence even exists. I believe there ( without true proof of course) is no such thing as coincidence, except in the dictionary. The reason I believe this is that far far too many things in my 63 years of life which one might think to be coincidental occurrences were not, and I at the very least suspect there are no coincidences. Now how that all interconnects is the mystery of perhaps the universe for all I know.

Time and time again in my life, things end up connecting . That's really all I need to know for now. Perhaps that's actually all any of us needs to know. I've seen some bazaar stuff though.

Again, the mind, the universe, the very energy of it all is something that we just know very little about. Just about any kind of connection to all that or between all that makes more sense to me than coincidence !  All this other stuff I'm mentioning we know exists, we just don't fully understand how it all connects yet.

I don't discount much of anything as being a possibility anymore though.