Help me tackle my Achilles' Heel

[ranniks]

- I can't count for the life of me

Purely playing by intuition and what you hear is what I'm doing at the moment, but the counting is just murdering my motivation. Are there any specific exercises? Basically if the time signature is 3/4 and there are 8 notes in the bar, I lose track of counting whilst playing.

Anyone had any similar experiences?

Help would be very welcome!

[awesom_o]

Try playing material that is easy for you while counting out loud. You'll find that it is easier said than done. Many of my students struggle with this but with practice, they all improve over time.

You should be able to count out loud and play at the same time. Eventually you can just count in your head fluently while you're playing and it will become second nature to do this whenever you play. In order to get it second nature, you really have to stop sweeping the problem under the bed so to speak and tackle it head-on by learning to count out loud while playing.

[hfmadopter]

I agree with the other post on this about counting out loud. Out loud to me is even on my lips and in my mind the counting is sung, If you can sing you can count in a singing tone with the piece. Start very simply, what has happened for me is counting has turned into a bunch of dah's versus numbers. Dah's with accents on the beat I might add. I've been playing long enough that the beat comes in semi automatically and I count the trouble spots if I catch myself in time.

You have to do a little multi tasking for a while and this is part of the reason why to not advance your repertoire too quickly to too advanced a piece for your level of playing. Not to harp on that again ! You need to nail the rhythm thing down and take the answers to that with you to more advanced repertoire. It's the more accurate approach, lets say. Nail it now not in a Chopin Polonaise.

[ming304]

Why don't you just use a metronome, you can go slowly at first, and then increase the speed until you can do it right at the desired tempo.

[unimaster]

Can I piggyback a question on this line. . . ?

When you speak of "counting," are you simply referring to numbering (or "Dahing") each beat in order to keep time? Would the use of a metronome negate the need for this, or would anybody recommend counting along with a metronome?

[ranniks]

Try playing material that is easy for you while counting out loud. You'll find that it is easier said than done. Many of my students struggle with this but with practice, they all improve over time.

You should be able to count out loud and play at the same time. Eventually you can just count in your head fluently while you're playing and it will become second nature to do this whenever you play. In order to get it second nature, you really have to stop sweeping the problem under the bed so to speak and tackle it head-on by learning to count out loud while playing.

I'll try that, thanks. I think what David (thank you David) said is true about progression.

Basically I'm too scared to count fur elise, how the frigging hell do you count that anyways? it's  3/8, what does that even mean while counting? If it's 4/4 it's just 1 2 3 4 and 8/8 apparently 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8, but for the good of me I get confused.

I'll start simple this week!

[ranniks]

Can I piggyback a question on this line. . . ?

When you speak of "counting," are you simply referring to numbering (or "Dahing") each beat in order to keep time? Would the use of a metronome negate the need for this, or would anybody recommend counting along with a metronome?

Ming, I don't want to use a metronome, it just doesn't suit me.

I think you are right about the dahing part unimaster, but maybe my previous posts answers your question?

I can't follow a metronome because of two things:

- I just can't, using a metronome for Fur Elise? That would go very bad
- I can't concentrate enough to focus on the metronome
- If I rely on the metronome I believe that I can't play properly without it

I know, a lot of I can'ts, but maybe practise would help, but a metronome just isn''t me=/. I'm a feely person and feeling the music is more important than playing to a tick tick tick=/.

[ming304]

Honestly, I feel you HAVE to use a metronome to get the pulse down right. Do it slowly if you must. Do it soooo slow until you can do it with the metronome.

If you wanna play it more with free rhythm you've got to get it down right at a consistent tempo with the metronome first. You should also subdivide the rhythm as well if it gets to quavers or smaller.

Just put more faith in using the metronome, go slow until you can actually get it.

[hfmadopter]

I know, a lot of I can'ts, but maybe practise would help, but a metronome just isn''t me=/. I'm a feely person and feeling the music is more important than playing to a tick tick tick=/.

I just looked at the Urtext here at pianostreet. First of all I didn't play that fingering, I started on the fourth finger not the fifth in the right hand. I recall counting rapid 1 2 3 4 5 6, in other words in rhythm.  Really it's 1 and 2 and 3 and but my teacher had me count that way, when you get to measure 59 in the Urtext version that pulsing A in the bass goes well counted 1 2 3 4 5 6  for sure and it sets you up for the chord that follow in the bass. Also I did not play a single finger to execute the measures there but rotating between  the middle finger, the index finger and thumb. So middle finger 1, index is 2, thumb is three, middle is 4,  index finger 5 and thumb is 6.This brings and eveness in both rhythm and touch with a little practice.

This is an absolutely lovely piece and has a richness to it that not everyone plays out. So many folks just rattle the thing off. The last time I played this piece I think was maybe around 1986 !! I just poked my way through for the first time since then a few minutes ago  but it gave me goose bumps just as it did when I studied it with my teacher back around 1978 ( it's in the harmony that nails me).. The little bit I just described to you above came right back to me but that's about it. If I worked on it I'm sure more would come to the forefront as I played this for every event going back then.

Who wants to listen to the metronome banging in the background ? It would kill the mood of the piece. It would be steady to get the rhythm and speed set though. If you counted as I said above to the metronome as a practice for a few minutes per day you would get the concept of what I described above. I wouldn't practice the whole thing with the metronome myself but it could establish where you are headed with the piece.

Edit:

I forgot to mention that Fur Elise starts on the up beat, that first partial measure. I never found the need to count that. Really my countng in this piece was limited to that measure 59 section.

[ming304]

Basically if the time signature is 3/4 and there are 8 notes in the bar, I lose track of counting whilst playing.

Wait, where in Fur Elise does it have 8 counts in a bar? I only see 6 and 9's

[outin]

I don't think a metronome can replace the need to learn to count, if one wants to learn the pieces correctly from the score. I do it when there's a complicated rhythm or measure and it's actually almost fun, like solving a puzzle... I never count aloud, I do it in my head, it's much easier. I can't really sing aloud and play simultaneously either...

You really should practice. Just do one measure at the time. Maybe you would be more motivated to learn it if you take a piece you have never heard (maybe something baroque or classical so there no room to "go by feeling") and then try to figure out how it is suppose to sound. When you only play pieces that you know already you can rely too much on intuition. After you figure out the rhythm from scratch yourself, you probably don't need to count much again, it sticks to your brain.

[lostinidlewonder]

Understanding how rhythmic patterns are constructed and how to react to the music notation is helpful. Having a strong sense of rhythm naturally helps timing because it requires a thorough understanding of the segmentation of time vs sound. Exposure to multiple rhythmic devices naturally develops a sense of timing.

I don't find myself ever counting while playing pieces I have learned and if I need to use counting while practicing solo material it is only for seldom occasions when not dealing with long rests.

[j_menz]

Two things:

1) Remember to count the beats, not the notes.

2) Practice your counting when listening to pieces being played by others.

[ranniks]

Thanks all, I've started, with your tips and tricks and advice, on the counting thing. It's going somewhat well.

Another matter: my teacher gave me a jazz piece 2 weeks ago and I don't really like it, but I did practise it just so I get a taste from a different style, but I found that my practise sessions soon becamse boring and mundane and just a torture.........I do find another rock piano piece nice, going for that one.

What should I tell me teacher? I'm not really a confident person. I was thinking of just telling him I don't like the piece. He's a jazz pianist primarily, but before I signed up with him I asked him if he could teach me classic/baroque/etc, to which he said yes. So asking for classic/baroque shouldn't be a problem I hope.

[hfmadopter]

What should I tell me teacher? I'm not really a confident person. I was thinking of just telling him I don't like the piece. He's a jazz pianist primarily, but before I signed up with him I asked him if he could teach me classic/baroque/etc, to which he said yes. So asking for classic/baroque shouldn't be a problem I hope.

I think you may be more confident than you realize ! At any rate, just explain your situation with that piece you are not liking and see what he comes up with.. It's better that he at least knows how you feel  before he puts in tons of effort to teach it to you ( looking at it from his perspective). I mean really, if you don't like it and are bored with it you are unlikely to put in your best effort.

You like this rock piece, what is it ? Maybe he can help you to better perform with that ! You know way back when, I mentioned I was working on something and my teacher said bring it in and we will go over it. I did many pop pieces without her help but she got me started on some others that were not classical pieces. As a matter of fact that also happened with Fur Elise. Heck I didn't even know what Fur Elise was, I just heard it n a recording we had of classical piano pieces and had the score in a more advanced book I had gotten someplace and started to work on it myself. She saw I was taking to it very well so she changed up the program from that point on. So you never know where things will lead. I remember almost being afraid to mention this, my teacher with her Steinway was like dealing with a Godly entity at that point in time very early on in my piano study !

Moral: Don't be afraid to bring things up to your teacher, they don't bite and they can't condemn you to hell ! So nothing to fear.

[outin]

Another matter: my teacher gave me a jazz piece 2 weeks ago and I don't really like it, but I did practise it just so I get a taste from a different style, but I found that my practise sessions soon becamse boring and mundane and just a torture.........I do find another rock piano piece nice, going for that one.

What should I tell me teacher? I'm not really a confident person. I was thinking of just telling him I don't like the piece. He's a jazz pianist primarily, but before I signed up with him I asked him if he could teach me classic/baroque/etc, to which he said yes. So asking for classic/baroque shouldn't be a problem I hope.

I think it's good that you did practice the piece and not just gave up right away. Sometimes one doesn't want to practice somethng because it seems too hard and the teacher gave it for a reason.But if the piece of music just is not interesting as music, then the teacher should not mind if you drop it after the initial stage. I've done that many times. I ask my teacher to select a piece to avoid just taking pieces of similar style all the time. Then I try to practice the piece she gave me and after some time I completely loose my motivation. I just tell her that and she's ok with me letting the piece go. I still learned a little something from every one of them.

[louispodesta]

Jeez Louise!  Didn't anybody here ever take sight singing in school.

The way you teach any and every student to count, is to first close the lid on the keyboard.   Then you flaten out both hands directly in front of you.

Next, tapping on the the lid, you count the long note beats in your left hand, and at the same time you count the sub-beat notes in your right hand.   Usually, this mean left hand lower staff, right hand upper staff.

At the same time you count it vocally out loud, eg. one (l.h.) and two "and a" (r.h.), etc.  Or, you can use "te" or "ta" instead of "and."

Once you do this for every piece you learn, you get will the feel and the sound of it in your head.

Also, if there is a Dalcroze Eurhythmics teacher in your area, take every class they offer.   It will drastically improve your sense of time.

[louispodesta]

One more suggestion.   Practically every person who has studied the piano in the UK has been required to purchase, use, and learn the ten volume Boris Berlin "Four Star: Sight Reading And Ear Tests, Daily Exercises For Piano Students."

They are ten (cheap) approximately 40 page books that teach any student how to read and count.   Every book contains the aforementioned clapp and count exercises.

I could not read until I was in my early 50's, and these books got me to where I could learn the notes to over 40 piano concerto's.   You just start out slow and steady, and don't cheat and look down at your hands.

At the end of one year, you will see a major difference in your sense of time, and you sight-reading abilities.

[ranniks]

Thanks all!

Louis, we do that sometimes, but I definitely like how my teacher teaches me. He's friendly but can definitely be strictly.

Also, might I thank you upperclassmen in the pianoworld once again; my teacher complimented me sort off on my counting this time. I told him that I did the easy pieces with counting and it improved. I also told him what you told me David, about the counting will be difficult at higher grade pieces. He aggreed with it. He told me that's why we're also practising easier pieces.

About the piece that made my hands go dead: we dropped it. I told him and he told me he didn't know and that I should have said so from the beginning. But he wasn't annoyed or angry at me at all. In fact, he gave me an arrangement of the moonlight sonata movement 1, easier version if I compare both of them. Both 5 pages though.

It's the arrangement for Garry Cunningham made by Gilbert DeBenedetti apparently. It also says 'level 4 in the middel' under op 27 no 2. The main differences if I look at the sheet: less strain on the hands.

But definitely happy! We also went through a jazz/blues etude that I did like. Also he showed me a c-scale, but reversed version.

Time to rock it!

Edit:

The arrangement: https://gmajormusictheory.org/Freebies/Level4/4Moonlig.pdf

[ranniks]

Also: he played the moonlight sonata movement 3 in front of my eyes, sheetless. Which is amazing, haha.

[hfmadopter]

Thanks all!

Louis, we do that sometimes, but I definitely like how my teacher teaches me. He's friendly but can definitely be strictly.

Also, might I thnak you upperclassmen in the pianoworld once again; my teacher complimented me sort off on my counting this time. I told him that I did the easy pieces with counting and it improved. I also told him what you told me David, about the counting will be difficult at higher grade pieces. He aggreed with it. He told me that's why we're also practising easier pieces.

Glad things are working out for you ! A level 4 Moonlight Sonata, hmmm. Enjoy it though.