Help me make "counting" a routine

[bernadette60614]

I never "counted" when I practiced. During my first semester with a professional teacher it didn't matter much...my piece was Rondo Alla Turca.  However, now I'm starting a Beethoven sonata with much more complex patterns...and I hate, hate, hate counting.

Any magic to make this routine would be awesome!

[chopincrazy23]

I am not really sure there is anything that will magically make counting a routine.....but if you use a metronome, it will make it a lot easier!

[outin]

Don't try to make it a routine, but instead think of it as a clever way to "get" how the music must sound and use when really needed...

[quantum]

Try walking to the music.  Piano isn't an instrument you can carry with you so sing, or playback the music in your head while walking.  One step is one beat.  Set the walking pace first, then proceed to sing.  You could also just clap out the rhythms as you walk.  

Eventually you should learn to count and play at the same time, however walking to music is much more intuitive and does serve a similar purpose.  Most people walk to a steady pulse whether or not they are aware of it.  

This isn't some silly exercise either.  One of my professors had the class walk while performing rhythmic exercises.  We did this throughout an entire university term.  

[ted]

Am I being a bit naive here, but isn't it easier to just feel rhythm ? I don't think I ever "counted" anything in my life and it surprises me that you in particular would have ever needed to, quantum. Most rhythm of any real power is not notatable or countable anyway. Admittedly, I am so far out of touch with music, especially classical these days that I might have the wrong end of the stick, in which case ignore me, but surely "counting" and metronomes are at best very temporary crutches and not permanent habits of music making.

[j_menz]

Am I being a bit naive here, but isn't it easier to just feel rhythm ?

Generally true, though some people appear to need to develop their sense of rhythm and counting can help with that.

Also, some pieces have weak rhythms or rather unusual ones (or both), and I find counting (at least at first) is useful for these.

[ajspiano]

I find that most people can almost always just feel rhythm if they have the opportunity to hear it first. When reading it on a page though people tend to start out with the only real information drawn being the names of the notes. They can also tell you how long the notes are in terms of a number of beats, but the ability to create a sound image from the page is something they have to develop over time, and counting plays a big part it appropriately discerning how a passages notes fit against the beat.. Once they do this, they hear them selves play it in time and the counting takes a back seat - because now they can just feel it...    if they don't do that first they have no "feel" because they have no mental sound image.

The counting ensures that they feel the beat, while they play the rhythm. Its a kind of mental coordination that not everyone is born with...

Also, people tend not to do all that mentally before they play at first - you have to keep reminding them to perceive these things in advance..   and as they progress the rhythms are getting harder and they always need to learn to feel new unfamiliar patterns either by counting them out first, or having them demonstrated.

[quantum]

Am I being a bit naive here, but isn't it easier to just feel rhythm ? I don't think I ever "counted" anything in my life and it surprises me that you in particular would have ever needed to, quantum.

Admittedly I seldom count when engaging myself in music, and do agree it is much easier to feel rhythm.  However, some people have not yet learned to self-recognize the regularity of pulse and how rhythms fit into that space.  Counting does help to establish a sort of framework. 

On the other hand, one should also be cautions of excessively focusing on counting as it can distract one's mind, or serve as a cop out directing one's attention away from things of a more musically communicative nature. 

Once one learns to count it isn't necessary to beat it to a pulp.  Recognize its there and place it in the background. 

[keyofc]

When I play what I know or what I feel - it's true that I just feel the beat.
I write a lot of music - I can play it w/o counting - but when I write it out - I need to count.
When I feel the music - I'm not consciously thinking or even realizing the 16th notes are there until I want to write it out.

But if it's something new and challenging -I need to count before I feel it.

[4greatkeyboards]

Never count!  (Almost never). Only do it when you are not playing but looking at a puzzling measure or figure.


Our minds can learn to see the correct rhythm due to the presence on the other notes in the measure and on the staves.

This is only true for the multi-note instruments, like piano.

[ajspiano]

Never Count...

Our minds can learn to see the correct rhythm due to the presence on the other notes in the measure and on the staves.

The counting is what establishes and aids the learning of that ability as it allows a clear way to identify how all the notes line up in relation to each other and to the beat. Once that understanding has been reached the counting is no longer required..  never count is just silly advice. It is unwise to assume that everyone learns using the same natural tendencies. Some may need to go through counting, some may not...  though I would err on the side of most people having to use it at some point in their study.

..not just my opinion either, since many piano teaching references list counting aloud as a valid practice tool for developing pianists.

[mahlermaniac]

My instructor has me tap out the rhythm with my hands or feet BEFORE I actually sit down at the piano to play. This seems to help because you start to get a feel for the rhythm independantly.

[quantum]

The counting is what establishes and aids the learning of that ability as it allows a clear way to identify how all the notes line up in relation to each other and to the beat. Once that understanding has been reached the counting is no longer required..  never count is just silly advice. It is unwise to assume that everyone learns using the same natural tendencies. Some may need to go through counting, some may not...  though I would err on the side of most people having to use it at some point in their study.

Agreed.

[g_s_223]

If you have the opportunity to play with others, either with a piano duet partner, or in a chamber music situation, you will rapidly learn the importance of counting in keeping the performance together. As piano music is so self-sufficient, pianists often are weak on counting compared to say string players who typically learn to play in ensembles from a very early stage.

[keyofc]

g-s-223

That's great advice!

I had a little girl who refused to count - and I put her in a duet w/her brother.
I kept telling the brother to slow down for his sister while he counted.

Miraculously - the next week - she counted and showed up - and played faster than him which solved all her rhythm problems that week.

Competition is good on all levels.

Even after decades of playing - it helps to do duets now and then; playing w/a band.
And it is, indeed, a fun way!

[timothy42b]

Am I being a bit naive here, but isn't it easier to just feel rhythm ?

That is so for me as well.

But I've been playing and singing in ensembles for nearly 50 years.  I may have just internalized rhythms that are not natural to a beginner.  If I end up playing rhythms a little less familiar, like maybe big band syncopation, I do sometimes stop and count briefly to get the feel.   

To learn to count, join a handbell choir.  You have to wait and ring your bell at the right time.  Sometimes it is on the beat, sometimes not.

But............please don't join MINE until you learn.  I have enough ringers who don't count now.  <humor>