playing scales (does it matter)

[ade16]

Hmm. Ade16 has found the cut and paste feature. Please don't use it.

On topic,there seems to be two different things going on.  (1) scales as technical exercise and (2) scales as the basic structure of music.  As to the first, IMO they are as good and as bad as any other exercise.

The second is a more interesting one. It seems to me valid enough as far as it goes, but the scales that are usually taught are not in fact taught in a way to make the best use of them in that context. Surely modes and non-traditional scales should also be taught; and it may show my lack of understanding here, but I'm not clear how it relates to atonal music that is not "tonal in a different scale system". Perhaps one of the boffins could elaborate?

Copy and Paste has its uses when you want to get the message across to someone who has spread a lot of silly questions all over the forum, but then never bothers to participate in any of the discussions themselves. I have chuckled at a couple of your responses to that person.

As far as atonal music is concerned, more conventional scale patterns do occasionally crop up, particularly the chromatic scale. However, I would not imagine that conventional scale practice would be much help with works by Stockhausen or Messiaen for example. The latter was well known for using exotic scales (e.g. whole tone) which are not part of the usual scales package. Then again, such exotic scales were also used by Liszt in his later piano music and by other composers such as Mahler and Debussy.

Prokofiev and Stravinsky are another matter however. They would tend to be classified as modern, but more neo-classical. Conventional patterns do tend to crop up far more often in their music. (e.g. scales at the beginning of Prokofiev's 3rd Piano Concerto).

Schoenberg, Berg and Webern used the Dodecaphonic or 12-note system, also known as Serialism.
The music is constructed from the 12 notes of the chromatic scale, but placed in random order, thus creating a tone row of 12 different notes with none played more than once. There are actually
479 million 1 thousand 600 possible combinations. That is 12x11x10x9x8x7x6x5x4x3x2x1.
Although tone rows are essentially derived from a chromatic scale, conventional chromatic scale practice would very rarely be useful because every individual tone row is unique, and can also be played backwards (Retrograde), upside down with all intervals inverted (Inversion), or you can use the upside down version of the retrograde (Retrograde Inversion).

Much atonal music does not even use these kinds of structures and is completely random (e.g. piano music by John Cage) Therefore conventional scale practice is fairly futile here, with familiar patterns cropping up only every now and again through pure chance.

Hope this helps.

[pianoplunker]

Any thoughts yourself on this queston now that many others have expressed their opinions?

You seem to be very good at asking very open ended questions but not contributing very much, if anything at all, to the wider discussion yourself! You never even seem to respond to anyone else's posts which have arisen from your tantalizing questions!!!
 

In my opinion, to be fair, maybe the OP wants to see all the responses but does not have input since he/she does not yet know or understand the value of scales so cannot add anything to the discussion between the rest of us experts. Sometimes people can learn alot by simply reading others input and not necessarily contributing to a discussion which one does not yet have experience with. 

[j_menz]

the Dodecaphonic or 12-note system, also known as Serialism.

Not all twelve tone music is serial, and not all serial music uses a twelve-tone tone row. The two concepts often go together ( al la 2nd Viennese School) but are quite distinct.

[ade16]

Not all twelve tone music is serial, and not all serial music uses a twelve-tone tone row. The two concepts often go together ( al la 2nd Viennese School) but are quite distinct.

You are right, but it is in fact extremely complex with some composers also having used 'total serialism' whereby other paramaters are organised in addition to pitch; including duration, dynamics and register. I am very rusty on atonal music having studied it as a part of my music degree 35 years ago. I rarely have anything to do with atonal music these days, and I dare say there are others out there who know a great deal more about it. I have just read a particularly detailed and helpful article called 'Serialism' on Wikipedia, to refresh my memory.

I was specifically referring the 2nd Viennese School; but I take your point, it is much wider than this. Nevertheless, I still believe that practising conventional scales is rarely going to be useful when playing any category of atonal piano music; clearly because, by their very nature, scales and arpeggios etc are firmly based on tonality.

If anything, it is elements of the chromatic scale that tend to crop up most often in atonal music generally, precisely because atonality seeks to avoid the tonal implications provided by major and minor scales or triads. An exception to this was Alban Berg who was not quite so rigorous as Schoenberg, Webern and others in terms of avoiding any implications of conventional diatonic harmony.

[ade16]

In my opinion, to be fair, maybe the OP wants to see all the responses but does not have input since he/she does not yet know or understand the value of scales so cannot add anything to the discussion between the rest of us experts. Sometimes people can learn alot by simply reading others input and not necessarily contributing to a discussion which one does not yet have experience with. 

You would think so; but in this case there is the much wider context of this person leaving really annoying open-ended questions, some of them based on bogus information, and some being really naive to the point of stupidity. This is deliberate, and there is a pattern.

Have a look around the forum and you will see what I mean. I was taken in from the word go but I have now 'wised up' to what they have been up to! Notice how they have gone very quiet lately? I am not the only one to have noticed this!

Birba and Pianist1976 will confirm what I am saying as it was the latter who first alerted me to this!

[m1469]

That is a very interesting point for me m1469. I completely lack that perception. The fact that you assert a time existed when you did not perceive things "wanting to move somewhere" seems to suggests the sensation is learned, and simply what you became used to. If such aural imperatives really are a property of human brains, then I am just a bad luck bear once again and have missed the bus. On the other hand, the fact that I do not hear this wanting to move, and cannot assign particular merit to certain directions might just be advantageous for improvisation. I don't mean I cannot differentiate between changes, I'm not that aurally dense, it's just that I cannot grade them according to merit out of musical context using external criteria such as scales, or even worse, theory, which has no meaning for me at all. This lack of mine, if lack it is, might partly explain why I cannot grasp the significance of much classical music. That has a vague ring of truth to it.

Well, I've been thinking.  I think there is some element that is learned about a diatonic scale based on common practice, but that takes for granted its "creation" ... or rather, its original discovery.  And, I realized there is something discovered about it, not just humanly organized.  How can somebody just invent the concept of tone tendencies and invent its organization? There had to be something intrinsic which gave the idea in the first place and along the way.  I don't know what that is though.  Something about the vibrations?  Partials?  I'm fascinated all over again.

[ade16]

Well, I've been thinking.  I think there is some element that is learned about a diatonic scale based on common practice, but that takes for granted its "creation" ... or rather, its original discovery.  And, I realized there is something discovered about it, not just humanly organized.  How can somebody just invent the concept of tone tendencies and invent its organization? There had to be something intrinsic which gave the idea in the first place and along the way.  I don't know what that is though.  Something about the vibrations?  Partials?  I'm fascinated all over again.

I would suggest having a look into the ideas of Pythagoras in relation to music!

[beethovenopus2no3movt2]

... help you improve ... they can become annoying, boring and pointless

This is exactly what makes a Lang Lang a Lang Lang. sculpting and mot sculpting. ty

[beethovenopus2no3movt2]

... to help you improve ... they can become annoying, boring and pointless

This is exactly what makes a Lang Lang a Lang Lang. Sculpting and more Sculpting! ty

[birba]

Well, hello there! I don't actually get the gist of what you're saying.  And what is 'ty'?
Lang lang IS annoying, and pointless at times, but, at least visually, he's never boring.