arm or fingers : again

[4greatkeyboards]

The Weight Technique is what we all want. It dates back to at least Beethoven. I was taught this by David Roleff and by his teacher Duane Hampton a pupil of Schnabel who got it from Leschetizky, who got it from Czerny, who got it from Beethoven. Verbal history.

I think it today it is the main technique taught in the highest piano schools, but I only infer this from my readings.

It is not just arm weight, it is torso weight, plus arm weight, plus hand weight.

If you are doing it right then a person standing behind you who presses forward on your back slightly will make your notes louder slightly.

I learned this late in life, about age 35, and tried to embrace it by dropping everything and returning to Bach then building back up over the years back to Chopin.

[drazh]

I read somewhere Chopin mainly played by fingers and Liszt mainly played. With arm
Is that right?

[hardy_practice]

I read somewhere Chopin mainly played by fingers and Liszt mainly played. With arm
Is that right?

It's the other way round.  Liszt in his youth used a device where your wrists rest on a bar that runs along the length of the keyboard.  Czerny obviously forgot to tell him about arm weight!

https://www.thomaslabe.com/research/schumann/media/logier-chiroplast-fitted-to-keyboard.html

[keypeg]

I gave a hasty response when I had no time, so I'm putting an edited version here:

Depends, keypeg. The body of a person with bad habits (like slouching, etc.) will tell that person that correct posture doesn't feel "right".

Edit:
This was in response to what I wrote, but it didn't catch what I was saying, so it's arguing against something I wasn't trying to say.  Let me clarify.
 The context is here:
For one thing, if someone tells you nonsense then you can trust yourself that it's nonsense, and not think you're "doing it wrong".

I was not writing about simply following your senses and self-teaching doing that, because whatever you are used to is the "norm" for you.  Thus if you always lean to the left, learning to stand straight will not feel like you're standing straight, it will feel like you are leaning to the right.  Thus to feel straight, you would want to lean to the left, which feels straight to you, but looks crooked to anyone else. (For a crude example).  I think that's the kind of thing that you are talking about, and I agree.

In the same way, I am learning ways to move at the piano that are totally different from what I have done while self-taught, and some things are quite foreign to me.  They are much more effective than what I did "naturally", and over time they will become the new "natural".  That again goes with what you are saying.

I was talking about something different.  There are times that we are told something that is wrong, and we go with it out of a sense that teachers are omniscient, all teachers know, and know about everything, and if we sense that something is wrong, then we must be wrong.  I had thought I made it clear that this is what I was talking about.  We were referring to T. Mark's book, and that one goes into things people were commonly taught in the past, which has given them problems sometimes for decades.

I gave the example where my default way of carrying myself was a type of military posture with shoulders pulled back, a sway back etc.  I had already undone some of that.  I was told by someone I worked with for a short time to tighten the muscles between my shoulder blades, pull my shoulders back, etc.  I had an immediate sense of wrongness, a physical discomfort.  This feeling was correct and I should have heeded it.  That is what I'm talking about. 

On the other hand when I followed a general principal of learning to feel balanced, and started listening to my body, I did improve things.  And there are teachers who guide you, who observe and correct, but at the same time encourage you to listen to what your senses are telling you.  It is a back and forth.

In the same vein, if you blindly follow any set of rules of how to do things, like you are a piece of Ikea furniture, then you end up missing that connection to your physical self.  These are the things I was thinking about.  I don't think we are actually in disagreement.

[nyiregyhazi]

Keypeg, I don't massively disagree with your point in general, but the problem is that it's still oversimplified, even in your fleshed out version. By way of example, at one point I identified a habit of lifting my shoulders and getting into a tight position. So I made an effort to be a lot more passive with them and stop lifting up. I came to the idea that any sense of up in the shoulder is a bad habit that causes tightness. In time, I came to realise that my right shoulder started drooping too much. The problem had not been coming up a little but specifically coming up and FORWARDS and INWARDS. I need to make sure that when raising it up the small amount to find the functional position that I get slightly out rather than clamp into my torso and feel the shoulder blade coming back a little. Up isn't necessarily just up.

I know that everyone is different and I'm not saying you don't have a drastically different starter position than myself or that your diagnosis is wrong. But you only ever refer to "back"? What about inwards vs outwards? What about up vs down? Even that barely even scratches the surface of how much other information could be relevant. Are you sure coming back was the bad part, or is there another issue that differentiates between good back to create freedom and length in the arm and bad back which simply tightens muscles without purpose? Even "bad habits" should not necessarily be written off as the wrong thing to do. All too often, it's the specific blend that made that one element problematic. Change the blend and the "bad" turns into good.

I stress that I'm not looking to stay that you've necessarily got it all wrong. I'd make no direct assumptions without at least viewing you. But it's worth raising the fact that a single element taken out of context can be radically different when it put into any of countless pieces of relevant context. If a teacher fails to provide the things that might put his advice in a different context, that's his failing. But if you write off that single piece of advice without putting it into different lights, you can end up writing off something that would have been very useful- and missing the real problem that stopped it working. This applies to all kinds of issues and is not intended to be merely specific to the shoulders.

[keypeg]

Anything written in a forum will be a simplification of necessity.  To really figure something out you have to work with it daily from different angles and have a back and forth with a decent teacher, again over time.  Whatever happens there cannot be duplicated in a forum, not even in many paragraphs and many posts.

I was trying to convey a very general idea: that there is poor or misguided teaching (or not appropriate for that student) and if something feels wrong and that feeling doesn't go away, it may (or may not) be a correct reaction.  This came together with T. Mark's book, because some of the things he highlighted were in fact things I had recognized, so this was a confirmation.  I suspect that problems come especially when teachers have a generic package of things, rather than observing each student individually.

I read your description with interest and can relate to what you are saying.  An important point there is that you did observe, and you did try things out.

What I had was a specific instruction, which was given before the person had even seen me.  There was a specific physical exercise targeting certain muscles which in me were already over-active.  I could feel instantly that this did not seem right and was pushing me backward, but trying to be a "good student" I quashed the feeling.  I am now working with a professional - a personal trainer - putting these things back into balance.  There was nothing like trying things back and forth to see what feels right (like you did).

[nyiregyhazi]

Anything written in a forum will be a simplification of necessity.  To really figure something out you have to work with it daily from different angles and have a back and forth with a decent teacher, again over time.  Whatever happens there cannot be duplicated in a forum, not even in many paragraphs and many posts.

I was trying to convey a very general idea: that there is poor or misguided teaching (or not appropriate for that student) and if something feels wrong and that feeling doesn't go away, it may (or may not) be a correct reaction.  This came together with T. Mark's book, because some of the things he highlighted were in fact things I had recognized, so this was a confirmation.  I suspect that problems come especially when teachers have a generic package of things, rather than observing each student individually.

I read your description with interest and can relate to what you are saying.  An important point there is that you did observe, and you did try things out.

What I had was a specific instruction, which was given before the person had even seen me.  There was a specific physical exercise targeting certain muscles which in me were already over-active.  I could feel instantly that this did not seem right and was pushing me backward, but trying to be a "good student" I quashed the feeling.  I am now working with a professional - a personal trainer - putting these things back into balance.  There was nothing like trying things back and forth to see what feels right (like you did).

Sure. The point is not to write something off though, simply because an over simplified version felt wrong. The language you wrote would have unequivocally excluded anything that feels uncomfortable at first, in the way it had been phrased. It's important to be aware how easily something that seems bad can be falsely written off, when the issue that made it uncomfortable actually lies elsewhere. I recently discovered that a long term "fault" of leaning the hand over to play the 5th is fine after all- IF the thumb points down. I'd written it off for years, until I discovered that I'd simply missed the key part of the puzzle. It's actively helpful now, as long as it doesn't cause finger droop and collapse. The real issue was letting the thumb rise up while doing it- which leaves the 5th droopy and inept.

Also, I strongly recommend that you reference back and forward equally in your purer body work. Pianistically, everyone needs some sense of lengthening the arm via the shoulder. Without that, you limit natural stabilisation of fast and intense finger movements. If you cannot come back without tightening, there's major limitation unless you address the issue. In the long-run should be possible to draw the shoulder back without tightness. Even if you can't do it now, it would be a mistake to think you shouldn't learn how to.

 Although my problem is a forward shoulder, away from the piano, I need to do as much on forward positions of the shoulder as on bringing it back. If I only work at going back, it doesn't deal with the physical issue that is bringing it forward. Likewise, if the thought of going back made you tense up, you need to devote as much attention to the ability to go back with the shoulder in a way that does not inspire tightening or discomfort. In feldenkrais they suggest that the more you try manually correct a tendency in one direction, the harder you end up working against the very muscle that takes you there. It can end up getting even stronger because of this. When you fully explore the "bad" direction too, you can learn to actually release the overworking muscles that take you there, rather than be fighting against a habitual tightness with additional opposing efforts.

[keypeg]

Niereghazy, in general I agree with what you wrote.  I'll also point out that there is a big difference between what you are writing and my experience back then, because you are talking about me as student referencing back and forth and trying things.  You yourself are doing that.

[nyiregyhazi]

Niereghazy, in general I agree with what you wrote.  I'll also point out that there is a big difference between what you are writing and my experience back then, because you are talking about me as student referencing back and forth and trying things.  You yourself are doing that.

Of course- I'm not speaking specifically about your scenario but rather the general idea you put that anything that feels wrong therefore is wrong. Unfortunately things are too complex even for that to hold true. All it definite says is that the way you are doing it NOW is wrong. With better information and a different mindset, the very same instruction could later turn into something beneficial.

[keypeg]

Of course- I'm not speaking specifically about your scenario but rather the general idea you put that anything that feels wrong therefore is wrong.

Clarification - If something feels wrong, it might be wrong.  As students we may question ourselves too much.