Circle Of Fifths Help Needed

[fro0tyl0opy87]

Hello there everyone,

I'm new here and in need of some help. I'm very new to learning piano theory and having difficulty understanding the concept of circle of fifths patterns/ rules. E major has F# C# G# & D# in the scale, but when you play this E major scale, the sharps don't follow the order I've given above, therefore it doesn't match the phrase (Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle) so when you play F# and instead of going to C#, it goes to G#. That can't be right? I thought the point of the Father Charles phrase was to help you remember the order of the notes?!! Any ideas? Thanks!

[keypeg]

(This will work better if you can actually hear when something is a major scale and can adjust a note that is off)

Play a C major scale.  C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C (all the white keys)
Now go 5 piano keys over, which will be a perfect 5th, from C to G.  This is also the span of your 5 fingers.
Since you're on G, play a G major scale.  If you can hear what a major scale must sound like, you will have sharped the F for F#.  The key of G major has one sharp - F#.
Go up 5 again to D.  Play D major.  To make it sound right, you also have to sharp C#.  Now you have two sharps in the key signature - F# and C#.

If you keep going up a perfect 5th, you'll have A major, E major, B major, and each time you are adding another sharp to the key signature.  You will have your "Father Charles".

I never memorized these sayings, but they do reflect the order of sharps:
G major - F#
D major - same, add C#
A major - same, add G#
E major - same, add D#
B major - same, add A#

Notice also that the sharp you add to your previous collection of sharps is always a semitone below the tonic (F# below G, C# below D etc.)

If you were to write in the sharps in the key signature of E major, you would write them in your Father Charles order, in two diagonal lines.

[fro0tyl0opy87]

I really appreciate your reply keypeg, but I'm not sure if I fully grasp the pattern. I've thoroughly  followed your step by step and this is what I end up with:

EXAMPLE 1:
G Father
D Father Charles
A Charles Father Goes
E Father Goes Charles Down
B Charles Down Father Goes And
F# Father Goes And Charles Down Ends
C# Charles Down Father Goes And Battle

I notice the end sharps represent a diagonal line which reads in order Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle, but the sharps to get to those end sharps in each major scale don't make grammatical sense as you  can see, but maybe they aren't supposed to I don't know. Is this normal though? The first two G and D scales start off well, but the following major scales get messed up.

Shouldn't it rather be like this:

EXAMPLE 2:
G Father
D Father Charles
A Father Charles Goes
E Father Charles Goes Down
B Father Charles Goes Down And
F# Father Charles Goes Down And Ends
C# Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle
I've tried playing example 2 and that is impossible as the notes don't follow that order, unless I'm doing something wrong. Please could you let me know which example is correct example 1 or 2
Thanks!

[mikeowski]

It doesn't start on G but on F. You have to look at the first letter of every word.
Father - F, with one flat on B
Charles - C, with no accidental (you could see it as adding a sharp on the B flat)
Goes - G, one sharp on F
Down - D, and so on
And - A
Ends - E
Battle - B

So obviously the sharp key signatures (C#, F#) are not covered in this sentence.

[fro0tyl0opy87]

I simply started on G major because that's when the first accidental F# comes into play after C major which has no accidentals. But what I can't understand is for example lets say we're playing E major:

start on E so you'd play in this order:

E, F#, G#, A, B C#, D#, E

and the last accidental D# stands for the word 'down' as in Father Charles Goes Down, but how do I remember the order of the accidentals before it (E, F#, G#, A, B C#,) or do I simply have to memorize the order because as you can see they don't follow any pattern/ rule.

[dmauney]

I am a music theory newbie, but I believe the "Father Charles" mnemonic device is simply used to determine the order in which sharps are added to the key signatures.  It does not help in any way with the order in which they are played in a particular scale.  So starting with G, you add a one sharp and it is F#.  Then continue around the circle of fifths clockwise from G to c# to add the remaining sharps.  When you look at a key signature just count the number of sharps and stop the sentence at the last one to know which sharps to play (but not the order they appear in the particular scale).  Reverse the sentence "Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father" and you have the order in which flats are added to the key signatures as you move counterclockwise around the circle of fifths starting on F, which has one flat.

Hope this helps...

[fro0tyl0opy87]

Hi, yes this is exactly what I wanted to know. I see the tonic pattern order of the scales and I also see the pattern of the accidentals placed at the end of each scale, but it was the notes during each scale that confused me! Seems it's just coincidental that the D major has the accidentals F# and C# which correspond in grammatical order to the Father Charles phrase, but perhaps because there's only 2 present and once the other accidentals are introduced after this, it no longer makes grammatical sense! I know now not to pay any attention to that then.

Hope this helps...

Certainly did, many thanks!
Also thank you to other posters. Have a good day.

[mikeowski]

The pattern to build a major scale is
W - W - H - W - W - W - H
W = whole tone, 2 semitones up
H = half tone, 1 semitone up

If you apply the pattern on C major, you'll have a scale with 0 accidentals
G major 1 sharps, D major 2 sharps, etc. The circle of fifths just puts the scales in order.
You will have to remember what accidentals a scale has, or if you forget, use the pattern to build it.

For example building the E major scale: The pattern is WWHWWWH -->
You start on E, go a whole tone(W) to F#, another W to G#, then a half tone(H) to A, three more W's to B-C#-D#, and finally a half tone to E. That's the E major scale.
E - F#-G#- A - B - C#- D#- E

[fro0tyl0opy87]

ok great I understand. Many thanks for your help

[keypeg]

It doesn't start on G but on F. You have to look at the first letter of every word.
Father - F, with one flat on B
Charles - C, with no accidental (you could see it as adding a sharp on the B flat)
Goes - G, one sharp on F
Down - D, and so on
And - A
Ends - E
Battle - B

So obviously the sharp key signatures (C#, F#) are not covered in this sentence.

The G was the key in which the F occurs.  The pattern was clear going down the page.  (at least to me it is).

[mikeowski]

The G was the key in which the F occurs.  The pattern was clear going down the page.  (at least to me it is).

oh yeah totally.. well the OP was looking for something different anyway. But that makes more sense than starting on the F scale.