The Adult Hobbiest

[m1469]

Sometimes I have a difficult time knowing how to teach adult hobby pianists who mainly just want to learn to play individual pieces for fun.  This is especially true if they are already reading music and somewhat independent in that regard.  

It is difficult for me because I tend to want to delve more deeply into the music than is "required" for a piece that is supposed to be just for the student's own, personal (and private) enjoyment.  Why do they need all of the details, especially if they don't really want the details and it won't be performed for a critical audience?  

But, if the focus is not delving deeply into the piece and into music in general, what does a student really want or expect from lessons?

I appreciate responses from teachers and students alike!

[Bob]

Why not both?  They don't know what they want.  And there's more than one kind of enjoyment.

[m1469]

Yeah, they do know what they want (but I don't really understand what they want from lessons).  I've had several like this over the years, and eyes glaze over and I can see them losing interest if I start talking details.  So, I've just had another join today and I'm nervous it will go in the same direction.  Just wants an outlet and to play pieces she enjoys, which is theoretically fine.  It can just get to a point though where if we are not going to go to a performance standard and start trying to develop a more detailed technical facility, I feel like I'm not really doing my job.  

And, I truly don't really understand what they actually want from lessons.  Just a couple of pointers?  A couple of "fixes" for each piece that make it flow a little more?  How do teachers structure those lessons?  What goals do you have for those students?

[outin]

And, I truly don't really understand what they actually want from lessons.  

It could be many things:
They have read/heard everywhere that you need a teacher to AVOID things, like "bad habits" or injuries
They think having a teacher automatically makes them a better player even without really being interested in the "details"
They don't have the courage or drive to play for people, but they still want someone to listen to them playing, maybe expecting the teacher to tell them how well they are doing
They are social and want to work WITH someone instead of alone

[m1469]

Thank you, outin, I appreciate your reply very much.  Sometimes it's more difficult than other times for me to get into the mindset of a student's, and while everything you say makes sense, and much of that is probably naturally included in my teaching, I guess I wouldn't have thought of it in exactly those terms.  

This student in particular does have one informal performance goal for June that I will help her with, but she doesn't really have any other goals besides that (and wants to continue lessons past that), though she is open to playing in studio classes/informal studio recitals.  That is helpful, but I'm still working a bit to be understanding how to help an adult student, who is doing it primarily for fun, to be progressing to an extent that perhaps only I might like for them.  Progress is always my goal, and perhaps I am starting to see that this is not necessarily the primary goal of a student.  Perhaps they just want to feel a sense of enjoyment about it in the moment they are playing.  I get that and there are plenty of children who intuitively feel that way and I tend to feel like I know how to respond to that, but I think I'm still needing to understand my role in this a bit better especially when it comes to adults.

[1piano4joe]

Hi m1469,

Adults can be difficult for myriad reasons.  Men I've been told are least likely to listen and/or follow directions than women. This, often, is so different from teaching children/teenage students where you can get to direct more of the lesson which brings me to the following very important point.

Student oriented teaching versus teacher oriented teaching. This was spelled out for me when I got my master's degree in education, M.Ed.

In student oriented teaching the teacher takes a much more passive role watching the student work on their own. By its very nature, student oriented teaching will result in the teacher varying the input provided from student to student and even from lesson to lesson with the same student.

I once had an extremely capable student where I often wondered what I was doing there. This student in particular rarely needed input from me. Was he hard working, gifted and/or talented? It really didn't matter.

More importantly, he was an independent learner who either solved problems on his own or didn't have many in the first place. Mostly, I corrected his mistakes. I was an insurance policy for him. He knew I was there if he needed me to be.

In teacher oriented teaching I have much more of an agenda. It's more about me, me, me. I want to do this, that and the other thing. Here comes the "I's". I structure the lesson. I prepare. I direct. I control. I assign the pieces, scales, etc. I decide when to move on. I assess what the student is ready for. I determine their level. I guide them. I assess their progress. I pick up books for them or tell them what to go and buy. This often works very well and I quite often have spectacular results. Obviously, the less interested students just don't make the same progress. They cancel, reschedule, don't practice, or have other priorities. Jobs, sports, and friends all trump piano lessons and/or practice.

Lastly, I am running a business which requires me to make all sorts of  concessions:

1.  Often, I just give the people what they want. Period. I keep them happy. If their happy, I'm happy. If they want to learn pop than I teach that. A specific piece, no problem. Improvisation, coming right up. Hate scales, okay we won't do them. You want Hanon, you got it.

2. Okay, this one is truly weird. I once had a student who cancelled every week for several months. I continued to allow this for so long because they had strongly recommended me to about six other families raving what a great teacher I am. The new students, in fact, told me so. I put up with this inconvenience since this was a bizarre situation. I was curious though about why they thought I was such a great teacher when they didn't take many lessons.  Finally, I just double booked two students at the same time like the hotels and airlines do counting on this consistent canceler to be true to form. This worked out very well as they continued to cancel weekly appointments they "thought" they had that I continued to let them think they had but in reality that time slot went to another student and all the while they kept on recommending me.

Yeah, so teaching adults can be difficult.

Hope I helped, Joe.

[m1469]

Thank you, yes, I appreciate your post very much!  

In teacher oriented teaching I have much more of an agenda. It's more about me, me, me. I want to do this, that and the other thing. Here comes the "I's". I structure the lesson. I prepare. I direct. I control. I assign the pieces, scales, etc. I decide when to move on. I assess what the student is ready for. I determine their level. I guide them. I assess their progress. I pick up books for them or tell them what to go and buy. This often works very well and I quite often have spectacular results. Obviously, the less interested students just don't make the same progress. They cancel, reschedule, don't practice, or have other priorities. Jobs, sports, and friends all trump piano lessons and/or practice.

I realize there are lots of ideas "out there" on how to approach education.  Ultimately, my approach is based on viewing all teaching as student-oriented teaching, even if the teacher is "dictating" very much (as long as they know what they are doing).  The student is actually the priority, at least in my ideal philosophy.  I think that, in terms of acquiring actual skills, it has to involve some balance between a teacher observing a student, and the teacher dictating what needs to be happening.  

1.  Often, I just give the people what they want. Period. I keep them happy. If their happy, I'm happy. If they want to learn pop than I teach that. A specific piece, no problem. Improvisation, coming right up. Hate scales, okay we won't do them. You want Hanon, you got it.

2. Okay, this one is truly weird. I once had a student who cancelled every week for several months. I continued to allow this for so long because they had strongly recommended me to about six other families raving what a great teacher I am. The new students, in fact, told me so. I put up with this inconvenience since this was a bizarre situation. I was curious though about why they thought I was such a great teacher when they didn't take many lessons.  Finally, I just double booked two students at the same time like the hotels and airlines do counting on this consistent canceler to be true to form. This worked out very well as they continued to cancel weekly appointments they "thought" they had that I continued to let them think they had but in reality that time slot went to another student and all the while they kept on recommending me.

I really grasp these two scenarios and there is a certain allotment of tolerance I have for these scenarios.  However, after a decade of teaching (which I know is still not that much in comparison to some who have been teaching for a few decades), I find myself ... at a point of deeper considerations as a teacher.  And I wonder if I am just going to go along now for the rest of my life like this, or if there is going to be/needs to be a change?  

I get the strictly business idea that if a student is happy, I'm happy.  I had to realize this and learn to live with it several years back.  At the same time, I find myself wanting more as a teacher than students who blow in and blow out with simply some form of surface enjoyment.  Don't get me wrong, I want there to be joy in my studio and in their learning.  

But, how is what they are doing in my studio truly helping them to reach a form of deeper truth about music, about themselves, about the world?

[bernadette60614]

I am a student who has had some struggles with my current teacher because I am a "serious hobbyist", but not an aspiring professional.

I think a good place to start is to ask the following:

. How much experience have you had playing any instrument?
. How much playing piano?
. How long can you commit to practicing each day?
. What type of music do you enjoy playing on your own?
. A year from now, what would you like to be playing? (And, then revisit that question periodically.)

I think a teacher can help any student play better than they could without a teacher...but how "well" a student wants to play is influenced by their background, aspirations and the time they can commit to practice.

[m1469]

I am a student who has had some struggles with my current teacher because I am a "serious hobbyist", but not an aspiring professional.

I think a good place to start is to ask the following:

. How much experience have you had playing any instrument?
. How much playing piano?
. How long can you commit to practicing each day?
. What type of music do you enjoy playing on your own?
. A year from now, what would you like to be playing? (And, then revisit that question periodically.)

I think a teacher can help any student play better than they could without a teacher...but how "well" a student wants to play is influenced by their background, aspirations and the time they can commit to practice.

Thanks!  Done and done.  That's part of what the first lesson is for and these are standard points that I aim to find out upon a first conversation.  My question in this thread arises after/beyond this.  My question is more along the lines of how do we put all of that information into something that is progressive?

She aims to put 30 mins a day in, which is great.  But, 30 mins doing what?  I can think of plenty of things to fill that time, plenty of things to have her focus on, but I'd like it to be progressive in a way that goes beyond "well, let's see how long this lasts" or simply trying to keep her happy for as many months as possible.

[bernadette60614]

You are a good teacher!

I am learning how to structure my practice my asking questions here....which is a highly inefficient way to learn how to practice.

I would say that from the student's perspective what I would love to know:

. How much of my practice should be on exercises and which exercises?Which technical issues do these exercises address.

.  If we are working on a 5 page piece, e.g., how do I break down this piece so that I can learn it?

.  If I've practicing 30 minutes a day what is a sample practice outline:  1/3 exercises,1/3 new learning, 1/3 reinfocement?

.  Let's set a "soft date" for having a final product and then a hard date. (Something I did when I was teaching myself was to note my start date, make a note of when I started a certain section and then shot for a "completion" date..meaning I wouldn't be horrified to play this in front of a forgiving audience.

I think adults, particularly adults who have had careers outside the home, like at least an outline of a project (thinking of a piece of music as a project) and some deadlines (master the notes by x date, e.g.)

[hfmadopter]

 

This student in particular does have one informal performance goal for June that I will help her with, but she doesn't really have any other goals besides that (and wants to continue lessons past that), though she is open to playing in studio classes/informal studio recitals.  That is helpful, but I'm still working a bit to be understanding how to help an adult student, who is doing it primarily for fun, to be progressing to an extent that perhaps only I might like for them.  Progress is always my goal, and perhaps I am starting to see that this is not necessarily the primary goal of a student.  Perhaps they just want to feel a sense of enjoyment about it in the moment they are playing.  I get that and there are plenty of children who intuitively feel that way and I tend to feel like I know how to respond to that, but I think I'm still needing to understand my role in this a bit better especially when it comes to adults.

I think there is always the potential for a drop out when the only goal going in is a single informal performance. So I get your point. It's good that you offer playing and recitals. That makes for a goal in itself I feel. Have you considered adult work shops, say once a month or once every other month ? You might find some adults who have open initiative that you can recognize. My teacher did this and drew about six of us in every single month who wanted to play beyond "just for the fun of it". Of course along with maybe three that were just there for the fun of it ! That was a long time ago now and I don't see it offered so much these days. It was very rewarding and goal setting. If I had enough students to offer this for I'd surely do it.

[m1469]

Yes, I appreciate structure ideas.  I've offered regular studio classes and recitals in the past with the idea that I was "building" something, and am perhaps just on the edge of recovering from feeling quite burnt out from putting out the effort and all that it involved (especially because it was met with ... not being appreciated (and I don't just mean whether or not people say "thanks" )).  I *might* be mustering the energy with these current students to set aside that kind of time and put forth the effort again.

This is what I'm still struggling with:

But, how is what they are doing in my studio truly helping them to reach a form of deeper truth about music, about themselves, about the world?

Making structures for practicing, getting people to play in front of each other, them dedicating time to practicing ... all of these things are obviously good.  But, still, those questions I quoted remain.  Perhaps these are more questions to myself at this point in my life than anything else.  

[outin]

This is what I'm still struggling with:

Quote from: m1469 on Today at 19:46:26

But, how is what they are doing in my studio truly helping them to reach a form of deeper truth about music, about themselves, about the world?

That you cannot know, because you cannot get into your students' heads or their world. Some might reach "deeper truths" and some will forever stay shallow in their experience. Music, oneself and the world are perceived in an individual way by us. So you just do what you feel is the best way, look at the results and hope you may have had a deeper impact in one of your students. Sounds like you are looking for a profound meaning in what you are doing and by this more motivation to keep teaching but I don't think more analysing will lead you to it. It might come to you or not, maybe one day you'll get a very special student whose mind will expand in your care.

[hfmadopter]

When teaching someone, I think them finding the deeper truth about music , the world and themselves is something that you only hope materializes out of showing them a pathway, even if most people have this in them to tap into. It's entirely up to them to go down that path and find all those rewards. You are speaking about possibly a certain individual in a mix of several who could be sensitive to finding that kind of path and probably beyond entry level at that, even though that potential probably exists in all of us . I.E. I don't think you can come up with a program that will generate this in people overall.

A better approach is to keep an eye out for that one individual or two perhaps, in your student body. I know it would be great to instill this. I don't think it can be done unless the individual is sensitive to begin with. Your job will be to recognize that individual when he or she shows up !

Meanwhile there is a lot of music to teach and a lot of good to be done for all your students.

[Bob]

Anyone else keeping reading the title on this thread, The Adult Hobbit?

[outin]

Anyone else keeping reading the title on this thread, The Adult Hobbit?

Sure, I have been wondering if it means there's one that is even more hobbit than the rest?

[bernadette60614]

Piano may not be this student's tool for finding life's deeper truths.  It may be that piano and playing those favorite pieces gives her a sense of accomplishment which energize her to find truth on her own path.

[timothy42b]

Adult hobbyists are very different from children being sent to lessons by their parents for "enrichment," with no expectation of ever performing to standard.

(From conversations on forums I suspect a lot of teachers may not share the expectations of the parent!  which often leads to eventual frustration)

As an adult hobbiest myself, I went to a teacher because I had stopped progressing on my own, and run into a couple of technical difficulties that no amount of effort was getting me past.  (this is not on piano so I won't give details)  On piano most of us adults have a sense that there is a correct way to do it and we want to do it that way, even if unnecessary (in the sense of not being limiting until very advanced stages.

What I think most adult piano hobbyists want is something they probably never get.  They do not want to play highly advanced repertoire.  They want to play simple things fluently and deftly, with no stumbling or hesitations. 

I actually think that is reachable for most, but none of my adult friends or family members who've attempted it have come close.  I surmise that most traditional students don't have that as a goal, and reach it only late in their training (after most have dropped). 

I may be overly critical of this aspect of playing, because I am very sensitive to rhythmic variations and have a physical reaction to bad time. 

I was once at a birthday party with friends, and a piano.  No pressure, so I ran happy birthday (er, good morning to you, no copyright violations here.)  I just played a simple right hand melody and close position I, IV, V chords behind it, didn't worry if I got them all right, but cranked it out without a stumble.  One of the guests who was two or three years into adult lessons with a music store piano school said, "That's all I want to do.  That's all I've ever wanted to do, and I can't." 

[hfmadopter]

I was once at a birthday party with friends, and a piano.  No pressure, so I ran happy birthday (er, good morning to you, no copyright violations here.)  I just played a simple right hand melody and close position I, IV, V chords behind it, didn't worry if I got them all right, but cranked it out without a stumble.  One of the guests who was two or three years into adult lessons with a music store piano school said, "That's all I want to do.  That's all I've ever wanted to do, and I can't." 

Good points Tim, I've mentioned simplified repertoire to some frustrated posters here at PS ( but played very well) a fair amount lately and you probably are correct about this. If someone puts all the dynamics into simpler repertoire as you might expect to hear in more complex repertoire, it's pretty amazing what can be produced. As we age, it's nice to be able to just play something nicely, beautifully in fact and maybe keep a complex piece at work in the background.

Heck, it's possible that you might not even have to join the Hobbits to achieve this LOL !!

[m1469]

Sure, I have been wondering if it means there's one that is even more hobbit than the rest?

haha  .  Heyyyy ... don't make fun of me!    I'm emotionally empty and plus I'm not feeling well and need somebody to make me brothy soup with saltine crackers.  Thanks  

*lays here*

I'm "listening" to these comments and taking them in.  But, the above is true and for now I just can only listen and appreciate the ideas.  Thanks for continuing to contribute with your thoughtful posts!

[outin]

 On piano most of us adults have a sense that there is a correct way to do it and we want to do it that way, even if unnecessary (in the sense of not being limiting until very advanced stages.

What I think most adult piano hobbyists want is something they probably never get.  They do not want to play highly advanced repertoire.  They want to play simple things fluently and deftly, with no stumbling or hesitations. 

I actually think that is reachable for most, but none of my adult friends or family members who've attempted it have come close.  I surmise that most traditional students don't have that as a goal, and reach it only late in their training (after most have dropped). 

I may be overly critical of this aspect of playing, because I am very sensitive to rhythmic variations and have a physical reaction to bad time. 

I was once at a birthday party with friends, and a piano.  No pressure, so I ran happy birthday (er, good morning to you, no copyright violations here.)  I just played a simple right hand melody and close position I, IV, V chords behind it, didn't worry if I got them all right, but cranked it out without a stumble.  One of the guests who was two or three years into adult lessons with a music store piano school said, "That's all I want to do.  That's all I've ever wanted to do, and I can't." 

Your post made me think and there's much true in it. I feel that learning about better technique had driven the goal of playing fluently much further away than it used to be. And made me overly critical and tense of my playing because like you I cannot stand bad rhythm (or bad sound)...But at the same time I do want to be able to play some advanced things one day and I don't see how I could be happy playing just easy arrangements.

Then again the other people I know who started late seem to be very happy just attending their lessons without much progress, at least not in technique or understanding of music. Some people seem to be lucky with their musical taste, they actually want to listen and play to simple songs and have no desire to play Chopin. 

It's almost like you can't have both with the limitations of adult life... But I hope one can...

[hfmadopter]

haha  .  Heyyyy ... don't make fun of me!    I'm emotionally empty and plus I'm not feeling well and need somebody to make me brothy soup with saltine crackers.  Thanks  

*lays here*

I'm "listening" to these comments and taking them in.  But, the above is true and for now I just can only listen and appreciate the ideas.  Thanks for continuing to contribute with your thoughtful posts!

Keep your zinc tablets up year round m1469. Since my wife added zinc to my pill boxes ( I take it every day of my life) I have not been sick. I might start a sniffle but it goes away before developing into something more. A few sore throuts have not blown up into bronchitis and were gone in a day, etc. And I have not had the flu. About 4 years so far ( knocks on wood).

At any rate, hope you feel better soon !

[brogers70]

I'm a student, not a teacher, so I don't know whether this would work. You might try making a deal with the adult student and say, look, we'll work on whatever pieces you want, but I also want you to try an experiment for the next two months. For those two months I want you to spend 25% of your practice time just playing B major (or Db or E major, something very comfortable) scales, hands separate, with the perfect posture, shoulder, arm and hand position, and relaxation that I'm about to show you. Do it slowly and regularly until you can feel what it feels like to play scales that way, and keep doing it for the whole two months. Then try to reproduce that feeling when you work on your pieces. After two months, I bet you'll notice that it is easier and more comfortable to play anything at all. Then spend part of each lesson for the two months verifying that they are playing the scales correctly, with the correct posture, position, relaxation, etc..

For many students, they may see enough of an improvement in their ability to play what they want to play, that they will accept further work on the technical details. Two months should be enough for them to notice a difference. If not, then nothing was lost anyway.

[Bob]

*lays here*

*Bob pokes the m1469 with a stick to see if she's still alive.*

[timothy42b]

*Bob pokes the m1469 with a stick to see if she's still alive.*

Bit disappointed in you, Bob, thought you were nitpicky enough to have corrected her grammar.

Lies here!

It isn't that hard.  Lie, lay, has lain; lay, laid, has laid.  Two completely different verbs, NOT interchangeable. 

[Bob]

Actually that one didn't sink in. 

https://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/lay-versus-lie.aspx
"If you exclude the meaning "to tell an untruth" and just focus on the setting/reclining meaning of lay and lie, then the important distinction is that lay requires a direct object and lie does not. So you lie down on the sofa (no direct object), but you lay the book down on the table (the book is the direct object).

This is in the present tense, where you are talking about doing something now: you lie down on the sofa, and you lay down a book."

You can only lay a direct object.

Hmm... Can you lay.. yourself?  Yourself being a direct object?  I was going to say you can't lay yourself, but if yourself is a DO, then you can.  I'm thinking it is a DO and you can. 

[timothy42b]

So Bob, do you sit on the sofa or set on the sofa?

Same application.

If it sounds wrong, it probably is wrong, and m1469's use just sounded wrong.  I'm glad you looked it up.  Now you know why it was wrong. 

[Bob]

Sit definitely.  That one's clear cut.  The lay/lie one must not have sunk in.

It's only wrong in the present. "m1469 laid down" is correct from what I read.  Strange stuff.

[ted]

I am an adult and earn no money from my music; therefore I am an adult hobbyist. I can contribute only one point about this, obviously from the pupil's point of view. In the decades after the teacher of my youth died, I ran into several problems, some technical, some musical, as we all do. All lessons I had concerning these problems, from various teachers, were completely useless. In every case but one, the teacher insisted on embarking on some irrelevant exercise because he or she simply had no idea how to help me do what I wanted to do. If they had just said so it would have saved us both time and saved me money. They were all nice people, and one or two were very prominent, accomplished musicians; but they couldn't admit that they didn't know something, and attempted to camouflage the fact by teaching something they did know. Please don't do that.

[bernadette60614]

Something else to consider:

You don't know where your influence will lead.  The adult hoobyist (I know..just gentle teasing..) could become the passionate symphony attendee because piano has brought them a better understanding of music.  Or, the person who sings out their emotions in choir at the assisted living center...cause music became a part of their life when they were taking lessons from you.  Or, the person who gives her niece a piano because she can honestly say that piano adds so much to life.

[starlady]

I'm an adult hobbiest by the definition used here, in that I do not intend to  perform publicly unless maybe at knife-point.   And I practise seriously (stealing time from my real-life schedule), never miss a lesson, and often call my teacher between lessons with questions about fingering or phrasing.

So  what do I want out of the piano? It is simple enough to say: I want to understand music.  I want to know how music works.  I  want to know why Bach and Schubert and Ligeti wrote down the notes they did and why we react to them the way we do.  That's all!!

And even though it's a simple goal, it keeps me pretty busy. 

--s.

[hfmadopter]

I'm an adult hobbiest by the definition used here, in that I do not intend to  perform publicly unless maybe at knife-point.   And I practise seriously (stealing time from my real-life schedule), never miss a lesson, and often call my teacher between lessons with questions about fingering or phrasing.

So  what do I want out of the piano? It is simple enough to say: I want to understand music.  I want to know how music works.  I  want to know why Bach and Schubert and Ligeti wrote down the notes they did and why we react to them the way we do.  That's all!!

And even though it's a simple goal, it keeps me pretty busy. 

--s.

You just keep at it as you are and it's going to happen, you will come to understand many things !

I'm saying no more about it, people around here probably already suspect that I'm nuts but that's ok. Just do it and don't stop.

[anakha13]

I've taught several adults and I have to say the main problem I've had is Most of the adults I have taught have missed a tonne of lessons. I understand that things do happen, and you may have a family, and work may get in the way, but I think that ultimately there has to be some commitment. I mean, you're coming to me to learn piano, right?

Another serious problem is that most adult students I've had just don't practice. I've heard excuses, excuses, excuses. I am sick to death of them! I try to have the philosophy of 'If the student's happy I'm happy', but sometimes this just doesn't sit well with me.  Especially if the student has unrealistic expectations and goals.

[the_fervid_pig]

Speaking as an adult hobbyist who just wants to learn a few pieces I had a few lessons about 3 months after I started learning. I mainly wanted to make sure I wasn't picking up any bad habits. My teacher taught me correct use of the pedal and fingerings for the piece I was learning at the time. The lessons were mainly him watching and making suggestions regarding fingering and technique as I played. I've taken the techniques he taught me and applied them to other pieces. It made me want to dig deeper into the pieces, and the mechanics behind them, but that may be just me! I found the lessons very useful, I never intended them to be a long term thing and if I feel I'm struggling or need some inspiration I may go back for more at some point.

[jknott]

anakha - I'm shocked! I'd have thought adult hobbyists (I am one) would have been MORE reliable and practise more - because they are doing it from choice and for pleasure! 

[green]

I've taught several adults and I have to say the main problem I've had is Most of the adults I have taught have missed a tonne of lessons. I understand that things do happen, and you may have a family, and work may get in the way, but I think that ultimately there has to be some commitment. I mean, you're coming to me to learn piano, right?

Another serious problem is that most adult students I've had just don't practice. I've heard excuses, excuses, excuses. I am sick to death of them! I try to have the philosophy of 'If the student's happy I'm happy', but sometimes this just doesn't sit well with me.  Especially if the student has unrealistic expectations and goals.

Same. Adult students I have had in every single case have been the worst students. Unless they have a clear idea of what they want, the time frame in which they want to accomplish it, then probably doing an exam, with say 6 months to a year time frame is a better idea than working on random pieces. It never works.

[bronnestam]

Piano may not be this student's tool for finding life's deeper truths.  It may be that piano and playing those favorite pieces gives her a sense of accomplishment which energize her to find truth on her own path.

Oh, well formulated!
I am one of those adult hobbyists/hobbits.    I have started to take lessons again, after 29 years of no lessons, and I enjoy every moment of it. OK, so the main reason was not that funny; I felt I started to injure myself so I needed help with my technique. Someone watching me play and helping me correcting my posture etcetera.
As I see it, I don't pay my teacher to teach me how to sight-read certain pieces, and certainly NOT to motivate me. That is MY job.

She has asked me several times what my goals are and I cannot really figure out, we try to find this out together. Right now I think the simple answer is that I love to learn, to accomplish things, and I love this music. I have attended concerts during a few years now - of course I did that in my teens then, but that was different - and I have been more and more touched by the music, until I started to feel euphorical by some performances. I can get tears in my eyes with emotion, something that never happened before. (Ok, so I have grown sentimental.  ) And as I DID study piano myself, I could appreciate and admire the performances fully, I think.
And then I wanted to participate myself so I started to play again and today I find it most satisfying and thrilling to have this wonderful music "in my own hands", to learn those things that seemed so difficult and challenging ... It is such a kick to sit down at the piano and be able to play what I used to just    at before ...

Do I want to become a professional? Or a teacher? No, I don't think so, because I have other things to do in life, I think there are better ways to make a living - I'm a novelist and a technical translator - and I am really not very fond of performing, I have always suffered from stage fright.
 
But I DON'T like to restrict myself either. I want to take my piano work as seriously as you can. No, I see no exams, no competitions (I guess they are just for young people anyway) and no serious recitals ahead of me. But still I work "as if". What I love the most with my lessons is that I am also treated that seriously. Yesterday we worked with ... the G Major scale. Why? Because she wanted to work with some technical issues, some wrist movements I have to practice. Then we worked with the musical expressions of two pieces I am about to perform in her little "student gathering" in a few weeks, we discussed different interpretations back and forth. "Try not building up that crescendo too fast", "what does this phrase really mean to you" and so on.

To me this is GOLD. I cannot discuss these things with my family here at home, as I'm the only one playing the piano. In fact, I have noone to discuss with at all, noone who can give me feedback on any kind of expert level. In my lessons, I feel like a concert pianist.  Or at least like a real professional. Serious business in order to reach "perfection". No "that is not for mortals like you, my dear" or "it's too late for this and that" or "how can I motivate you to practice more?"

Simple technical exercises are sooo flattering when you don't feel that you have to do them because you just cannot to anything more advanced. She knows I can play a part of the Appassionata, so if she thinks dealing with punctuations in the G Major scale is the thing to do NOW, I feel very content with that.

So, even though some of you would call me the Great Pretender, I love this feeling of my lessons. I feel inspired, because I am treated as a pro, not a lazy amateur who cannot make up something better to do with her spare time, or a better way to waste her money. My teacher also says it is so inspiring to teaching adults instead of school kids, because the adults are there because they really really want to be there, not because their parents have forced them to go there ...

I can only speak for myself, of course. So, how to treat an "uninterested" adult student? Maybe by encouraging them to raise their own limits. They want to learn a pop song? Then treat them like they were Elton John. (Without making them divas, of course. If their play sucks, then it sucks. Tell them it sucks, like Elton John's manager would tell him the same.)  They start playing at the age of 38 and dream of becoming the next Rubinstein? They don't tell them "sorry, it's too late for you, it is not possible, and besides you don't seem to practice enough." Start working instead, assuming they WILL reach this goal (at the age of 130).

[hfmadopter]

So, even though some of you would call me the Great Pretender, I love this feeling of my lessons. I feel inspired, because I am treated as a pro, not a lazy amateur who cannot make up something better to do with her spare time, or a better way to waste her money. My teacher also says it is so inspiring to teaching adults instead of school kids, because the adults are there because they really really want to be there, not because their parents have forced them to go there ...

Bronnestam, I for one wouldn't call you anything . We all create our own experience with music and the piano and get from it what we each need from it ( hopefully). Meanwhile, some weeks back I heard your recording of Fur Elise and thought it was very nice ! It was articulate, even and well toned and not rushed .  It was as it should be IMO, and so many out there rush it or otherwise butcher it.

Beyond that, back when I took lessons my feelings were not so different from yours but I have a whole family, some coworkers and friends full of support as well. I am back at my piano now after a long time away too, just because I felt inspired to do so. Life is short, we should be doing the things we enjoy.

[bronnestam]

Thanks a lot for your kind words.   

OK, maybe I lied a bit when I said I have "noone". First of all, my dear husband loves to hear me play, but he does not know much about music, he just enjoys to listen. Nice, but not very helpful (except that it is very encouraging ...)
Second, the one to thank here is my concert pianist friend. The best of them all if you ask me, but at least in the top world division if you ask someone randomly. He tours the whole world and has his life filled with concerts, recitals, studio recordings, masterclasses etcetera. Still his hobby is - playing hockey. At the age of 42, after a life as a hockey supporter, he decided to climb down to the ice and try himself, joining the open hockey training. And now, just a few years later, he has been asked to be assisting coach for the juniors. I find this decision incredibly cool, and when I saw him doing that, I told myself "if HE can start playing hockey, I can learn playing the Appassionata. It is NOT too late!"
He said that one thing he loved with hockey training was that some experienced NHL pros did not mind joining the amateurs from time to time and play with them, help them and encourage them. (Now he will help ME with piano playing!!!)

But I think this piano experience of his has helped him a lot. He said that he at first could not jump over the sideboards, he just fell down on the ice on his back, making everyone giggle ...  What does a concert pianist do about this shameful imperfection? Practice, of course! So he used an hour, or maybe two, to learn this routine, just this one. I laughed aloud when I heard it. Yeah, THAT is a true, professional musician! If a detail is bad, you do what it takes to make it better, no matter how tiny and stupid it seems, no matter if everybody else laughs.

My point in telling this is to show that even if some adult piano students may appear difficult, you may also encounter a few that are mature enough to have stopped worrying about "what people think". Life is short, as you say, and if you want to start play hockey when you are +40 or if you want to go serious with piano playing when you are "way too old", you should just go for it. Some adult students just do that. Some might be stubborn, maybe they should mature even more first ...    But I also think they are afraid, really, they don't dare to believe in their own dreams. That's why they don't seem to listen to advice, they don't believe they are worth being taken seriously.

Oh - BTW, after your nice words about Für Elise. It was my pianist friend who gave me some suggestions on that, actually, because I asked about it. He also played it as an introduction piece on the next concert I attended. (To major astonishment of the audience - THAT one???) My fan ego exploded, of course.  So ... I guess encouragement and inspiration means a lot. Not just people telling you how incredibly talented and promising yada yada you are, but people who don't put up the big STOP sign and say "who do you think you are, really?" whenever you want to try something new. And I also think it is GREAT with pros who don't look down on amateurs just because they are on different levels and may have different goals.

[bronnestam]

I've taught several adults and I have to say the main problem I've had is Most of the adults I have taught have missed a tonne of lessons. I understand that things do happen, and you may have a family, and work may get in the way, but I think that ultimately there has to be some commitment. I mean, you're coming to me to learn piano, right?

Another serious problem is that most adult students I've had just don't practice. I've heard excuses, excuses, excuses. I am sick to death of them! I try to have the philosophy of 'If the student's happy I'm happy', but sometimes this just doesn't sit well with me.  Especially if the student has unrealistic expectations and goals.

Neither I can believe what I read here. What if you charge more? Of course there is always a risk of losing students that way, but people tend to care more about expensive things, so those who stay will work harder if they pay more. One advantage with adult students is that they fully understand the concept of money ... 
Personally I would not throw my money in the river like that. It would be like going to the restaurant and buy myself a terribly expensive meal although I have no appetite and no intention to eat. What idiot does such a thing?

I used to have a lot of excuses when I was a teen and had my weekly 20-minutes lessons (which were almost free of charge to me as I was a school student). I was lazy and unmotivated and often I did not practice. Still I loved to play the piano so I did not quit, but I could not motivate myself. (For once I will NOT tell you how I changed this, you can read that elsewhere.) Today I make up no excuses at all. Either I choose to practice, or not to practice, and in both cases I do it for my own sake, not for my teacher! So I find excuses very childish and stupid. Lessons are a service I pay for, not a duty of mine.

Well, Life certainly DOES screw up things for us from time to time, so that we cannot prioritize piano practicing, but if that happens too often I don't see no point in taking piano lessons either. Besides, how can anyone claim they don't have the time to practice, when they obviously have the time to watch hours and hours of mindless TV shows, or playing Farmville on Facebook ...?



 

[jknott]

well said bronnestam.  or they could just get up a bit earlier.

[ranniks]

I started when I was 20, I'm 21 now. It's been about 9 months of lessons now.

Hmmm. When I started the piano, the motive was the large amount of videos I watched in the bus going to my intership. I watched piano versions of coldplay songs and all. It was really lovely. Prior to that I had seen an older gentlemen, around the age of 62/65 playing the piano. I asked him to play some Mozart and Beethoven and others and he did. I loved it. But only after a few months I decided to take the lessons and piano.

My teacher on my first lessons went over some hand exercises with me, 12131415141312 etc. He also gave me a sheet on the very esay version of Beethoven's Schone Gottefunker (or something). It had the hand position pictured and the number of the hands also depicted.

The next lessons I showed it to him and he mumbled something along the lines of 'a beginner shouldn't be able to play that'. I shrugged it off.

I didn't really know what I wanted. But what I did want was learn the piano and play beautiful songs. My goals can be found in my forum signature.

A month ago I had a piano block. I was glad that my teacher didn't seem to mind....I didn't want to dissapoint him. Now I'm back into action though.

In the Netherlands the people like to be direct and stuff, so maybe you can do that with your future adult students too. Not sure if that's rude in other countries though.

Basically just ask them what they want to achieve with the piano. For me it as become a specialist in classical pieces and being able to listen to music and play them on the piano. Reading music came along with my teachers help and I didn't even think about reading music before taking lessons.

Now after 9 to 10 months as an adult beginner I can play give or take 7-10 pieces. Which is something I'm proud of regardless if I can play them perfectly or not (the small audiences I've played for think it's good).