Tuning my first piano

[gsoler]

Hi!

I resently bought a used piano, a Zimmermann Chippendale from somewhere between 1970-1985.
And I'm trying my best tuning it
(first time owning and tuning a piano)

I've been trying out TuneLab s Android version,
and I have a few question:

- I read somewhere that I should lower the pitch into tune, not raise it up to tune. Is this correct?
On guitars we do the oposite, why the difference?
- My piano was generally 1 semitone flat, not tuned for a long time. Will this give me problems when tuning? I see that my previous tuned keys, goes of by some 7-15cents. Is it me not tuning correct or is it because of the major flat previous tuning?
- I find it hard tuning to correct pitch, aiming for -1c to +2c. I use a K&M 166 tuning lever. I guess a longer lever would be better, right?
-I've come to D6, starting from A0, and it doesn't sound that good. Should I expect to do a second full tuning before things are setling into place?

Thanks

Geir

[hfmadopter]

I'd have left it 1 semitone flat for the very first tuning and just bring all flat strings up within each unison ( equalize the unison ). See how that sounded and let it settle in. THen start more serious tunings from there.

You probably won't get a good lock in your tuning for a little while. In other words when you learn this it should hold tune better.

[gsoler]

Thanks!

I see that for the upper part, the actual string is used as two strings, 50%sharing with semitone up/down. Is this common for all pianos?
Does this mean that tuning one note could directly affect another?

[hfmadopter]

Thanks!

I see that for the upper part, the actual string is used as two strings, 50%sharing with semitone up/down. Is this common for all pianos?
Does this mean that tuning one note could directly affect another?

Tuning one note can effect another anyway, it's all tension adjustment when ever you move a tuning pin. Not to say that there will be a drastic change but noticeable sometimes. There is literally thousands of lb of pressure on the harp of a piano. It's good to adjust slowly over all the registers of the piano. Additionally, if it's an older piano you may not want to tune to concert pitch and if to do so, then not all in one tuning or one pass within a tuning at least..

There is a lot to know, accumulating years of experience is a good thing ! Incidentally I doubt your tuning lever is too short. What is important is that it gets a good grip and the tip fits the pins well.

[gsoler]

Ok, thanks!

A lot to learn it seems

I tuned to A=440Hz (didn't know better)
but it has generally dropped 8-11c
Maybe that's ok?
When adjusting individual strings, would you recommend me to tune to -8c overall flat,
or to go for 440?

How long time should it be before I try retuning it all with new measurments?

BTW: Seems like overpull was something I should have considered before starting. But, Then I didn't know what that was. lol

BTW2: When you tune, what precision do you use/ what is good enough for you?
And, a hit string is sharper in the attack than the sustain. Where is correct reading?

[hfmadopter]

Ok, thanks!

A lot to learn it seems

I tuned to A=440Hz (didn't know better)
but it has generally dropped 8-11c
Maybe that's ok?
When adjusting individual strings, would you recommend me to tune to -8c overall flat,
or to go for 440?

How long time should it be before I try retuning it all with new measurments?

BTW: Seems like overpull was something I should have considered before starting. But, Then I didn't know what that was. lol

BTW2: When you tune, what precision do you use/ what is good enough for you?
And, a hit string is sharper in the attack than the sustain. Where is correct reading?

Your tuning must be pleasing to the ear, so some of the tuning needs to be by ear. Unfortunately it's not just an instrument tuning for me. What is required is some "stretch" in the tuning. Go online you can find videos and tutorials on tuning and the stretch concept as well. You need your intervals to harmonize ( pay attentions to fifths as mentioned in a other post and also sometimes when that gets tricky it helps to sort out thirds in that range) and at the same time have your octaves harmonize, yet make some stretch. Think of tuning as a balancing act, it really isn't just as simple as meeting some numbers in a program. Though I suppose once you have a good tuning that pleases your ear, then going by those known  numbers would make that repeatable.

A 440 is fine, pull each string over slightly and let it back down to A440 rather than pulling up to the tune ( this may be what you read about, not sure). As you move up and down the registers from A 440 the vibration changes or beats if you will, but in the upper register you will go a few cents sharper than pure and in the lower register a few cents duller than pure. That's the stretch.

I use a combo instrument and ear for tuning. I also tune against my digital piano in the lower register where my ears are not so hot and my old bass strings tricky to get just right .

Attack and sustain I always thought of as more of a voicing issue. Certainly though if the tuning is clear you will get better sustain within the capability of the instrument.  My bass strings had lost sustain , had some rust in the windings etc. So I released them, untwisted them ( 1898 piano, it had some twist in the bass strings) and re-twisted them last summer. It created a whole new bass in my grand ! I didn't stop there, I set regulation and voiced the hammers as well. It's all cumulative.

The nice thing about learning to tune yourself is that you can do it anytime. But give it a few days to settle in. Sometimes even by the next day you may notice a bit of change on a piano that hasn't been tuned in a long time. If something goes out badly in that day, address the one thing but over the next few days it's likely more will show up. It will take maybe three tunings before it settles down, assuming tight pins and tight block mounts etc ( good condition). If something is loose tuning will be ongoing for ever, if it holds for a month you will be lucky, this being after those initial tunings.

[johnmar78]

hey Gosoler,

By reading your post, I think it takes few years or longer to master your tunning.
Normally for being acceptable would takes your at least few years. My suggestion is your piano is not a brand new one and depends on the condition of the pin, if its tight, then tune it to concert pitch, if you think its loose then better off stay at 420, or slight ;lower. amle sur eno rorust on the strings... Tune at a higher the pitch will stay in tune longer. In your case, it may takes at least 3 tunnings over 3 weeks period to settle. Th idea condition is having a control environment keeping at constant temperature in your piano room. I noticed this is hard to acheive, sometimes one note is out of tune slightly and will get back in tune during differnt seasons. by all means, try use a digital tuner combined with your ears and tune it in fifths and octaves, staing from middle c. I hope this helps.

[gsoler]

Thanks hfmadopter and johnmar78!
A lot of good information and help here

I haven't noticed any rust, will check next time I open the piano.

I remember a piano-playing friend of mine telling me what to watch out for when buying a used piano, but I forgot what he said. I guess loose pins was one of the things.
I haven't noticed any loose pins so far.
I guess tuning one semitone up, then some drop is to be expected.

Anyway, I'm sort of finished with first tuning. It doesn't sound wonderful, but at least is playable. And that is far better than before

I understand that tuning by ear is a skill that takes good ears, lot of practise and quite some knowledge. If it wasn't for the digital tuning aid like TuneLab, I'd newer had a chance.
Quite expencive buying a license though.
Maybe I should try: https://www.instrument-tuner.com/ next time?
Liked the Android-version of TuneLab though, handy using the little phone.

Thanks again!

Geir

[hfmadopter]

It will go quite a bit easier next time. It's good to hear that the pins are not loose. Maybe do a touch up soon, you will find that just a few strings being out makes it much less clear sounding. You really need to nail your unison's for clarity. I like to also check 3rds and fifths for harmony in trouble spots on a second run through. Sometimes you need to reference an octave with this, first a single note above and then below the range you are actually tuning. In time you will gain experience as to what to do when. But you are on your way !

Incidentally not all pianos sound best at A 440, my grand is one. Being from the late 1800's it likes a bit less. Just sounds better all over, less obscure overtones, more mellow.

Edit:

I use a Korg meter with a needle and my ear. I had to look at it to see where I had it set to, it's A 438. Doesn't sound like a lot of change but it makes a difference on my piano. It may even have been factory designed for 432, I've never been able to find that out and kind of stopped looking when 438 worked out so well for me.

[quantum]

Look at this book. 
https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Servicing-Tuning-Rebuilding-Professional/dp/1879511037

Even though you may be starting out with software, reading the chapters on tuning will help fill in some essential knowledge on how to go about the activity. 


For software there is an open source app call Ultratune that is being developed.  The download location keeps changing, so no current link to give at the moment.  From what I've read, some of the commercial tuning software companies aren't happy that such tuning program is being made free with comparable features to what the commercial companies are charging hundreds of dollars for. 

[gsoler]

Update: I've now tuned 3times (about) and I'm close to A440.
Still some strugles though.
Pins are hard -makes it tough to make smaller changes. It's mostly jumping up/down 20c, trying to hit the right pitch.
And, it seems like the piano is still sinking, measured -10c in general.
(Second tuning I did overpull by some 20c).
I don't know if pins are loose, but some keys the strings are +-6c to each other.

I'll try to embed a little audio-file, here:
https://soundcloud.com/geir-sol/piano-2014-03-17-41-19/s-fhrBY

[hfmadopter]

Update: I've now tuned 3times (about) and I'm close to A440.
Still some strugles though.
Pins are hard -makes it tough to make smaller changes. It's mostly jumping up/down 20c, trying to hit the right pitch.
And, it seems like the piano is still sinking, measured -10c in general.
(Second tuning I did overpull by some 20c).
I don't know if pins are loose, but some keys the strings are +-6c to each other.

I'll try to embed a little audio-file, here:
https://soundcloud.com/geir-sol/piano-2014-03-17-41-19/s-fhrBY

If your pins are loose they will be very easy to let off from an over pull and hard to get a lock. If they are really loose they will almost spin off by themselves, you can't lock them. Well seated pins take a little force to get them to back off, it takes a very deliberate touch with the tuning hammer to nail the spot you want . In the unison, you can hear it come into tune for you. It's all technique and experience that's all.

[gsoler]

If your pins are loose they will be very easy to let off from an over pull and hard to get a lock. If they are really loose they will almost spin off by themselves, you can't lock them. Well seated pins take a little force to get them to back off, it takes a very deliberate touch with the tuning hammer to nail the spot you want . In the unison, you can hear it come into tune for you. It's all technique and experience that's all.

Well, in a way, they seem hard. It takes a little force..