advantages of historic instruments

[justharmony]

This topic came up in another thread, but I thought it deserved a discussion of its own.  Someone posted that they thought there were no advantages to historic instruments - that there was nothing these instruments could do (or that, I guess, you'd want to do with them) that a good player could not replicate on a modern grand.   I know that this is a common belief, and that historic instruments are often considered "inferior" to the modern grand. 

I have to say that I vehemently disagree with the idea that these instruments have little or nothing to offer, that they have no advantages over a modern instrument.   I'll offer three examples of advantages these instruments have that I believe to be impossible (or next to it) to replicate on a modern instrument.

The first thing surely is impossible - it has to do with the entire construction of the instrument itself - its tension, its stringing, etc.  which is something that not even the best performer has one iota of control over with a modern instrument.   What I am referring to is what I hear as resonant, wonderful, beautiful clarity in the bass that we are not used to with a modern instrument.  The first time I heard the Waldstein Sonata on a period (restored) grand and I could actually clearly distinguish all the notes and harmonies of those repeated chords in the bass, it was a revelation to me.  THIS was what Beethoven had written.  THIS was the instrument for which he had written it.  The music made sense in a way that I had not realized it did not, quite, before.

The second thing that I certainly cannot do on a modern instrument (and I have serious doubts as to whether or not anyone can do this) is replicate the degree of subtle nuance in the p - pppp dynamic range.  The touch on a historic instrument is much lighter, enabling a whole new world of dynamic and expressive capability - a world of exquisitely beautiful whispered poetry. Which makes sense when you consider that pianos used to be parlor instruments, not made for huge concert halls as they are today. 

The third thing has to do with touch as well, and the construction of the action.  On a Viennese action piano, for example, the action is very light, very responsive, very direct, and it lends itself PERFECTLY to the sort of runs and turns of the likes of Mozart and Schubert.  Yes, we play the same notes (technically speaking - temperament aside) today, but they are much more difficult and clunky (if you'll forgive me) to produce - way more difficult physically than on the instruments for which this music was written - and I perceive a greater fluidity, a greater lightness when playing such music on a piano with Viennese action.   

Now, I suppose that technically the last one is possible to reproduce - it's just much more difficult for most people to reproduce. 

My point is not that these historic instruments are superior or inferior, just like I am not saying that the modern grand is either superior or inferior.  Each class of instrument is simply DIFFERENT and offers different advantages and disadvantages.   We are used to the modern grand and the sound that it makes so we tend to prefer this sound. There's nothing wrong with that, really.  To each their own.  However, I, personally, have found the experience of getting to know historic instruments - hearing them, studying them, playing them - to be  both very beautiful and very illuminating.

For what it's worth. 
 

[j_menz]

To the extent that you do have a point (and the further back one goes historically the greater that point is - Beethoven being about the point of dubiousness IMO), I simply don't have the room (or the budget) for the squillion different instruments involved.  I note the latest Roland (?) digitals have a suite of historical pianos, but I doubt they will satisfy your requirements.

I also note that the earlier back one goes, the more commonly composers freely re-instrumented their compositions, meaning they were more bound to the music than to the sound of the instrument. It was also many of the composers themselves who were the restless pioneers of the many "advances" you now bemoan.

[justharmony]

To the extent that you do have a point (and the further back one goes historically the greater that point is - Beethoven being about the point of dubiousness IMO), I simply don't have the room (or the budget) for the squillion different instruments involved.  I note the latest Roland (?) digitals have a suite of historical pianos, but I doubt they will satisfy your requirements.

I also note that the earlier back one goes, the more commonly composers freely re-instrumented their compositions, meaning they were more bound to the music than to the sound of the instrument. It was also many of the composers themselves who were the restless pioneers of the many "advances" you now bemoan.

Sheesh.  I'm not "bemoaning" anything, j_menz, nor am I suggesting that the only way to play this music is on historic instruments.  As you suggest - few have the budget or the ability to do that regularly. 

What I AM saying (I'll re-state for clarity's sake) is that these instruments are not without purpose or beauty - that they DO have some wonderful points and can be fantastic to listen to and to play if one has the chance.  I have done so and found it to be a wonderfully enlightening and magical experience.  What you find useful, practical, illuminating or anything else is up to you.

That make sense?

Do you have some examples of solo keyboard music being "reinstrumented"? 

[j_menz]

What I AM saying (I'll re-state for clarity's sake) is that these instruments are not without purpose or beauty - that they DO have some wonderful points and can be fantastic to listen to and to play if one has the chance.  I have done so and found it to be a wonderfully enlightening and magical experience. 

To the extent that that is all you are saying, then FWIW I agree entirely. I remember the first time I heard Bach played on authentic instruments was a revelation. I am cautious of the camp that now goes so far as to say "authentic or not at all".

Probably anything by Handel was re-instrumented. He plagiarised himself mercilessly.

[iansinclair]

Since I am the one to whom you refer in the opening post, perhaps I might add a few comments...

First off, I'm certainly not opposed to period instruments; as you note, there are effects achievable on an early forte piano which are very difficult to achieve on a modern piano.  Also, the tone and resonance of a forte piano is quite different from that of a modern piano.  If one has the resources to own one, and wants to play that music in an "authentic" way, I'd say to go for it.

You enquire, though, about keyboard music which has been reinstrumented.  This is an area where I feel rather strongly, oddly: If one is to play music written for harpsichord, it is almost impossible to obtain a similar effect with a piano -- and this applies to almost anything prior to Beethoven.  Not to say that a piano reproduction of a Bach or Scarlatti piece isn't wonderful, but it isn't what they would have heard or, possibly, had in mind (now there's a minefield to wander into!).  This is also true of the innumerable piano transcriptions of organ music.  When one gets into this area, though, one is dealing with some very tricky questions of art and aesthetics; as j_menz says, I do not care for the authentic or else school of thought.

In the interim period, sticking to pianos here for a moment, there is a real question, and to my mind a very valid one, as to what a composer such as Beethoven would have done had he had a modern piano available.  This question is a good way to start a pub clearing brawl at a convention of musicians...

With regard to other instruments (I mentioned french horn, as I play that instrument) again one can get into a rather unfortunate fight with the purists vs. the modernists.  The purist will argue, correctly, that there is often a different tone quality to period instruments which is not present in modern ones (in the horn, for instance, a period instrument will be darker on its open notes than most modern instruments) and that this is valuable.  This is true, so far as it goes.  However, there are also some problems with period instruments.  Intonation for keyed instruments (flutes, clarinets, oboes/haut bois and the like) is often problematic and requires great skill and attention from the player.  Fingerings can be... um... interesting; a pre-Boehm flute is an absolute nightmare for some notes, for instance.  The result of that is that there are some passages which are that difficult on a modern instrument which are almost impossible on a period instrument.  If you have the skill to do it, fine -- but it's rare.  On my own orchestral instrument, valved horns were simply not available until, I think, the mid-1800s.  Most earlier music was written so that to the maximum extent possible the only notes called for were open, as the tone quality of the instrument changes radically when it is stopped to sound notes which are not in the harmonic series.  Does playing the Mozart horn concerti on a period horn sound authentic?  It surely does.  Is it more aesthetically pleasing than it would be on a modern horn?  To my mind, very doubtful. 

But on the whole, it is a fascinating topic... and one where doctrinaire positions are most unwise!  Including my own!

[indianajo]

I first heard Beethoven on a historic early piano on South German Radio concert on FM radio last year.  I believe it was a piano festival somewhere in the Ruhr Valley.  Really different sound than a modern grand. Reminded me of the better quality of the pre-depression upright pianos I played as a boy in Sunday School.  I've started looking around to acquire a decent pre-depression upright; the different tone not only works on Beethoven, but is the tone that Scott Joplin and Fats Waller designed their repretoire for.  The advantage of a 1920 upright piano, it won't cost over $80 and won't be a nightmare to tune.  The tuner on the Ruhr Valley piano said on the radio it needed extensive tuning every performance.  There seems to be a radical change in console(studio, upright) piano sounds starting about 1940 with the Steinway I bought in a 1941 version.  The post depression models sound a lot more like post 1890 Steinway grands, the pre-depression models sound like the historic piano on the radio.
I like the sound of modern Steinway large grands, but there is no way I would play one. The touch is waay too heavy for my joints and tendons.  I did okay on my piano teacher's Sohmer grand in my teens, but there is no way i could do that now, even with pre-practice naproxen (pills). 
WUOL-FM two years played, once, a fanfare or gallop or something on historic valveless hunting horns, with string orchestra.  It was wildly enthusiastic and really exciting.  Much more attack than modern horns, and the intonation was a little exotic.  Not a sound I'd want to hear 24 hours a day, but more than once a year would be fun. 

[iansinclair]

A natural horn is wonderful fun to play, and some of the early music (Renaissance) for horns really is exciting stuff either to play or listen to -- there is, as you say, a wildness to it (either playing or listening!).  Intonation does tend to get a little squirrely on occasion, but what the heck.  The range of tone colour in french horns -- even modern ones -- is amazingly wide; my own has a very dark (lots of overtones) almost woodwindy sort of tone -- very like the old natural horns.  Others are much more like other brasses, even tending towards baritone horns.

I might add that the french horn is a tricky son of a something to play, and is completely treacherous.  If it can bite you, it will, and in the most obvious and exposed passage it can find.  It knows...

[hfmadopter]

A natural horn is wonderful fun to play, and some of the early music (Renaissance) for horns really is exciting stuff either to play or listen to

The talk about horns leads me to flute ( wind instrument at least !). I always have had an attraction to the haunting, hollow, woody almost sacred sound of wooden flutes, most notably the American Indian variety. I think I've nailed it to the Eastern Em or secondly Gm tuning that are most appealing to me. Since I am not getting any younger, I keep thinking I should make a move on this instrument. I've never played a flute in my life.

Anyone know how inexpensive it is wise to go on one of these to find out if it's something that seriously interests me vs me just being me again ? I.E. would a $200 Indian flute be a piece of junk ? I mean you can buy them for $20 or $2000 !

[iansinclair]

Anyone know how inexpensive it is wise to go on one of these to find out if it's something that seriously interests me vs me just being me again ? I.E. would a $200 Indian flute be a piece of junk ? I mean you can buy them for $20 or $2000 !

Wooden flutes do have a lovely and haunting sound.  I have a 19th century one which I fiddle with now and then... I wouldn't be sure on the price vs. quality, but if my recorders are any guide I would think that the less expensive ones would probably be quite satisfactory -- at least my tenor recorder is.  The main thing is the intonation of the instrument, which is largely where the holes are bored -- so if they get that right, it should be OK.  But as I say, haven't tried them so...

[hfmadopter]

Wooden flutes do have a lovely and haunting sound.  I have a 19th century one which I fiddle with now and then... I wouldn't be sure on the price vs. quality, but if my recorders are any guide I would think that the less expensive ones would probably be quite satisfactory -- at least my tenor recorder is.  The main thing is the intonation of the instrument, which is largely where the holes are bored -- so if they get that right, it should be OK.  But as I say, haven't tried them so...

It seems to be stylish for people to be making these and selling them online. Create a company name online and good to go. It seems careful selection is in order. I have Favorited two sites where they seem to know what they are talking about, one has power equipment to produce his flutes with and there are options in design.

Thank's for the info once again Ian !