Purchasing my first acoustic piano

[freetrader0000]

Hello! Please forgive me if I’m posting this in the wrong forum, I just did a quick search and this seems to be the most active/logical forum I found for my questions.

I’m a young piano student and I recently played a full sized grand piano for my graduation. This made me realize that I should really save up for an acoustic piano since I had many problems adapting to it after practicing on my hammer action digital piano. The weight of the keys was vastly different, the feedback and interaction involved in the sound and pedals was unexpected, and the volume difference between playing soft and loud was also very different.

Today I set out to the only nearby store I know that has acoustic pianos to check them out. I seem to be inclined to the Kawai pianos on both the grand pianos and the upright pianos.

The Kawai baby grand piano seemed to sound clearer when I played quick and without the pedal, which was very similar to what I experienced when playing the full sized grand piano. It also sounded well on the higher notes, while some of the other pianos were a bit too “bright” when playing on the higher notes.  At first I thought there was something wrong with the weight of the keys, since they weighed more than the other pianos in display, but I found that I had a similar experience with the concert grand and I also could play a lot more “expressively” with these keys. The other grand pianos that I found comparatively pleasant were much more expensive.

In the upright piano department, I found the larger, more expensive upright pianos less pleasant than some of the smaller ones. Everyone in the store talked about how the longer strings and the larger box makes the piano sound grander, better, and have more reverb, but instead I felt more attracted to the clearer and simpler sounding small ones. My favorite was a $3000-$4000 Kawai piano.

I’ve never bought an acoustic piano and I don’t seem to have much professional help as of right now, so my main questions are:

The most recognizable and prominent manufacturers were Yamaha, Kawai, and Ritmüller. Anything I should keep away from or look out for? Should I instead search for other stores? It's a bit hard since I live on an relatively small island.

I personally liked the heavy Kawai keybed, but the difference between it and some other baby grands in the store was fairly significant. Any thoughts on why this keybed is like this? Could this be a defect?

Anyone else share my strange opinion on the smaller upright pianos sounding better? I might have to check again since most of the upright pianos weren’t very well tuned.

Would saving up for a baby grand be worth it? I’m probably not going to be able to save up for a baby grand any time soon.

I do have many opinions on what I’ve seen but I also have many doubts. I’ll surely look for professional help eventually, but I wanted a forum’s opinion on the matter. Any tips and advice to make buying a piano more intuitive would really be welcome!

[hfmadopter]

What ever one you get you ask the dealer to prove that it is made of top grade materials. That there is no press board built into the lower priced models. It should have a tone that is pleasing to you. A test of the action would be to take single notes and rapidly repeat the note using the single finger from each hand. The action should keep up with your pace of so doing.

Some people like a heavier action, a few people like light action, most are someplace in the middle. Everyone likes accurate action though, this is the realm of the grand piano. There are not many uprights made that can keep up with a well regulated grand action of good manufacture.

In the world of digital pianos, just having hammer action is not enough. You need weighted and graded hammer action with escapement ( different manufacturers call it different things but what this is is most like a grand piano's action, if the list price is not around or better yet over $2000 US it isn't good enough. A sale price may be less). Look at Kawai and Roland for the best of this in their upper end digital pianos. Again Kawai will be a bit heavier. These actions in the top digital pianos in some cases feels more like a grand piano action than many uprights do or could. This is because the the actions featured in these is taken from grand pianos. In many cases they use the wooden keys like a grand. The upper end digital pianos are capable of being very expressive and require no tuning. I own a grand piano ( parlor grand full size) and would not want to be without my Kawai digital piano quite frankly. I will keep both for now.

If you like short uprights, fine. Stick with down to a console size. I suggested avoiding Spinets like the plague ( convoluted action, tough to tune correctly etc). You will get way more bass out of a larger upright though, as well as over all resonance and perhaps volume. Be very picky about the action in any of these pianos.

[indianajo]

I too have found the sideband bass of a 39" console piano (sohmer) better sounding than the fundamental bass notes of a 44" studio piano (Steinway).  I believe the smaller pianos use the interference between two frequencies to produce an interferance note at the fundamental, which I find quite pleasing. However the 1982 Steinway studio had a very heavy touch, suitable for building muscles to cope with their grands.  As I had no opportunity to play a grand piano short of renting a hall that has one, that was not a consideration for me in my purchase. 
I agree with the above poster that spinet pianos (36" or shorter) have poor repetition speed compared to models above 39".  I don't agree with the phobia grand owners have of the repeatibility of console actions. I've done 100% of my practice on consoles, and only played grands at recitals and piano guild competitions. I can express myself quite well on most console pianos, and don't find the action different from one end of the keyboard to the other on the better ones.   I find grands acceptable, but heavy, and they project the sound away from me, not at me. I used to be able to cope for the heavy action of grands at recital without special practice time, but in my sixties I am less confident of the ability of the joints and tendons to produce that much force for an hour or more.
You don't say where you live.  In the far east, I doubt there are many used pianos worthy of consideration. Where I live in the American midwest, great consoles and uprights are going to the dump every day because they occupy space that should be dedicated to a big screen television.  Pianos don't go obsolete like cars; sitting around unused doesn't hurt them if the humidity and temperature don't swing around wildly.  The wood of most upscale pianos built in the fifties and sixties is superior to what is available now.  Do watch for scooped hammer and dampler felts due to high hours of use, wiggly hammer due to pivot wear, and cracks in the soundboard.  So, unless you are in a newly large urban eastern city, look around and see what you can find used.  If you are, try some consoles in churches and schools of the type you are intending to buy.  Many models don't hold up under constant use; others do. If you are serious about practicing, you want the latter. I have played a 1970's Kawai console (probably made in North Carolina) and liked the tone.  The action was a bit slow, however, compared to my Sohmer.       

[hfmadopter]

  I don't agree with the phobia grand owners have of the repeatibility of console actions. I've done 100% of my practice on consoles, and only played grands at recitals and piano guild competitions. I can express myself quite well on most console pianos, and don't find the action different from one end of the keyboard to the other on the better ones.
        

I suppose some folks do have a phobia over this ( I mean really, an out and out fear ?). My situation is just one where with the pianos I've played the uprights were more sluggish. There are some exceptions, Some of  Baldwin's consoles and one Wurlitzer were not bad at all.

On the flip side of this, my grand has light action but I won't say that you have a phobia over grands having heavy action. If you ever get a chance to play an older Henry F Miller or a Chickering grand , try those out. You might be pleasantly surprised, if they are in good shape of course. The new Henry F Millers are made over seas like so many brands are now though. Supposedly to exacting standards, but who knows about that.

[indianajo]

Okay, sluggish consoles. I've found second rank consoles, a little slow, were the seventies? Kawai the church has now in the practice room, a Wurlitzer studio at a previous church, Baldwin spinets (36"), the Mason & ? spinet I tried out at goodwill in 2011,  the unbranded import piano my sister in law has.  Fast action consoles have been 50's and sixties Baldwin consoles, the Sohmer 39" I bought in 1982, The new Everett (made by Yamaha in Nippon) and Steinway studios I tried out in 1982, Mother's 1954 Everett, the Yamaha at the piano teacher's house when I scheduled one lesson last year.    There have been some fast pre-depression uprights, including a prewar Baldwin at an antique store and a prewar Shroeber I tried out at Goodwill last spring (and tried to buy, but the car wouldn't start before it sold).   The 1941 Steinway console I bought in 2010 has 87 very fast but light keys, and one sticky one (to be worked on).  
I got my first chance to touch a grand in 46 years at a Presbyterian church in the next county this year in the hour before AGO (organists) held a lenten concert.  the Baldwin grand is in the fellowhip hall and mostly they use it as a plant stand: it does have one key where the stings sag pitch.  The Baldwin grand is fast, but very heavy.  I have the same impression of my piano teacher's Sohmer grand I last played in 1966.  Neither is faster under my light duty fingers than my Sohmer 39" console or the Steinway 40" console.  
I test speed by alternating index fingers of two hands on one note, as fast as I can go.  If the key is not up by the time I am ready to hit it again, the piano is slow.  
If you can view the Lawrence Welk reruns the are selecting on PBS these days, I would point out the right hand chord tremelos JoAnne Castle does weekly in the pre 1974 shows on some sort of a beater upright they paint a different color every week.  I would maintain that collection of upright pianos are not slow.  I can only do two note tremelos at that speed yet, but I'm working on doing the chords.  I'm afraid that she has way stronger arms than me, to look at her. 

[hfmadopter]

I guess my suggestion to the OP is to reap what you can from this thread but test for yourself. Ask even more questions along the way. I don't know if you have even considered older used pianos since you asked about new models. The two finger test applies in either case though. So that's one tidbit you can take away from here, if no other.

Consider your space for a piano. If you don't have sufficient space then the grand is out anyway. At that point you would be looking for the console ( or larger upright) with the best action and tone, not to mention build.

I think above all the piano must appeal to you. You will want to play a piano that appeals to you, in the categories of looks and performance. Nobody wants to play a piano they don't like after all !
Listening to two 60+ yo guys hashing over differences of opinion may not do a whole lot for you beyond that.

[freetrader0000]

Some people like a heavier action, a few people like light action, most are someplace in the middle. Everyone likes accurate action though, this is the realm of the grand piano. There are not many uprights made that can keep up with a well regulated grand action of good manufacture.

In the world of digital pianos, just having hammer action is not enough. You need weighted and graded hammer action with escapement.

The weighted hammer actions I've seen are quite similar to the Yamaha P-70 that I have and even though there have been some improvements in digital piano keyboards since the one I have was released, the weight is still quite similar. This leads me to believe that I prefer the heavier keybeds.

I guess my suggestion to the OP is to reap what you can from this thread but test for yourself. Ask even more questions along the way. I don't know if you have even considered older used pianos since you asked about new models. The two finger test applies in either case though. So that's one tidbit you can take away from here, if no other.

Consider your space for a piano. If you don't have sufficient space then the grand is out anyway. At that point you would be looking for the console ( or larger upright) with the best action and tone, not to mention build.

I think above all the piano must appeal to you. You will want to play a piano that appeals to you, in the categories of looks and performance. Nobody wants to play a piano they don't like after all !
Listening to two 60+ yo guys hashing over differences of opinion may not do a whole lot for you beyond that.

I've always liked forums, they never give me any definite response or a single response for that matter, but I usually feel a lot more confident knowing other people's opinions and knowing more or less what I should look out for.

I would love to find an upright piano that has the action I'm looking for. Unfortunately, most uprights in the store had a nearly identical lighter weight as opposed to the grand pianos, which varied a lot more. Either way, I'll definitely search for more stores around my area.

[starvinglion]

I'm leery of digital piano's (was/am? considering the Kawai ES7) after reading this:

https://campus.murraystate.edu/staff/scott.thile/digital_vs_real.html

"In addition to the limitation of sound there is the problem of feel and sensitivity. Lack of infinite sensitivity makes the digital piano useless for classical piano performance; these pianists simply can not sacrifice any amount of artistic expression. This lack of infinite sensitivity also limits the digital piano's value as a practice instrument for serious classical piano students. The student pianist must learn to control every aspect of the piano's potential as an expressive instrument. This is impossible if the bulk of the student's practice time is spent on a digital piano. For this reason many piano teachers refuse to accept students unless they have access to an acoustic piano to study on."

[hfmadopter]

I'm leery of digital piano's (was/am? considering the Kawai ES7) after reading this:

https://campus.murraystate.edu/staff/scott.thile/digital_vs_real.html

"In addition to the limitation of sound there is the problem of feel and sensitivity. Lack of infinite sensitivity makes the digital piano useless for classical piano performance; these pianists simply can not sacrifice any amount of artistic expression. This lack of infinite sensitivity also limits the digital piano's value as a practice instrument for serious classical piano students. The student pianist must learn to control every aspect of the piano's potential as an expressive instrument. This is impossible if the bulk of the student's practice time is spent on a digital piano. For this reason many piano teachers refuse to accept students unless they have access to an acoustic piano to study on."

You could do far far worse than the Kawai ES7 FWIW. I assume you have listened to their audio demo :   https://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/ES7/es7_demovid.html 

At any rate I would not buy a digital piano that doesn't have a touch and tonal curve adjustment feature. I don't mean just the preset but be able to go in and tweak the curves as well. I personally like one that has EQ and tonal adjustments set externally and saveable as part of the setup if so desired. Makes a world of difference. I have never played the ES 7 but own the MP 6 ( which is an older stage model than the ES7 is) which has these features. I also own an acoustic grand piano . One should note that not all acoustic grand pianos are created equally and not all digitals are either.

I suggest playing all of each that you can, then make your choice. It took me about nine months or searching and kept coming back to the Kawai for a digital, so that's what I bought. I built my own stand. The acoustic I've owned for 30 years or more.