Some Pieces on Pianostreet Have Levels That Are Completely Wrong.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You do know you can arrive at the second by means of the first, don't you? 

I would much rather have a thread of 'Appassionata vs Waldstein' vs a 'rank all 32 Beethoven sonatas'. That's just ridiculous. 

Well I change my mind a little.  Doing an x vs y thing is still kinda pushing it.  But I still ask my teacher some of those.

[j_menz]

Doing an x vs y thing is still kinda pushing it.  But I still ask my teacher some of those.

In the context of asking your teacher, who knows your playing strengths and weakness and learning skills it's a sensible question.

It's in the context of some absolute objective one size fits all comparison that it not only is "kinda pushing it", it's completely bonkers (unless it's stupid for being meaninglessly obvious, like Fuer Elise Vs Scarbo)

[ajspiano]

Sure, you get my point though.

I think all grading systems are stupid.

Yes I get your point, and as a broad generalization I agree with rachmaninoff_forever..

That said, lately I've spent a bit of time working on the idea of a much more specific "teaching method" of my own. I've been going through large numbers of pieces and grading them based on my own thoughts, not based on my experiences as a student but based on my understanding of a range of skills that I wish to develop in a student.

So instead of having this idea of lets cover a bunch of works at grade x - instead I have a massive explosion chart of piano skills, with many branches, and many levels per branch.

So I mentally assess a piece as being a few different levels, as referred to by each individual element, which I can cross reference with where a student is in regard to each element..

Doing so has given me a different perspective on grades, - I still think they are fairly useless to the individual, because the system is a little limited. But I can much better assess why certain things appear in certain grades and how to better sequence works for a student to learn..

..where now I might split grade 2 into 40 pieces, in a specific order (perhaps groups of 5-10), and have concrete reasons why a piece is in grade three. While practically identical to one in grade 2 so far as many of its challenges it maybe placed in my grade three because I choose not to expose a student to a work that has a key signature with 3 flats/sharps until they've done at least X number of pieces with 2 flats/sharps for example.. 

But for a student at that level, they may end up finding the level 3 piece easier than some of the level 2 ones. So the grading has to do with degree of prior exposure to different concepts and learning somewhat hidden aspects in a desirable order, rather than a flat out this is harder than that.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

(unless it's stupid for being meaninglessly obvious, like Fuer Elise Vs Scarbo)

Yeah, obviously the Fur Elise makes the Scarbo look like child's play.

[lostinidlewonder]

Personally I find grading pieces precisely to a number level is a silly thing to do. It can put barriers in front of people before they even try to learn a piece or may offer a false sense of achievement. When I was younger I would learn pieces that inspired me without even thinking about difficulty just focus on trying to produce the nice sound.

[ajspiano]

Personally I find grading pieces precisely to a number level is a silly thing to do. It can put barriers in front of people before they even try to learn a piece or may offer a false sense of achievement. When I was younger I would learn pieces that inspired me without even thinking about difficulty just focus on trying to produce the nice sound.

Yes I agree, which is why I don't ever really tell people what grade I think something is, or what grade a music board says it is.

Its just about how I personally decide what range of music to choose from next, balanced against the students abilities and tastes.

[outin]

That said, lately I've spent a bit of time working on the idea of a much more specific "teaching method" of my own. I've been going through large numbers of pieces and grading them based on my own thoughts, not based on my experiences as a student but based on my understanding of a range of skills that I wish to develop in a student.

So instead of having this idea of lets cover a bunch of works at grade x - instead I have a massive explosion chart of piano skills, with many branches, and many levels per branch.

So I mentally assess a piece as being a few different levels, as referred to by each individual element, which I can cross reference with where a student is in regard to each element..

Doing so has given me a different perspective on grades, - I still think they are fairly useless to the individual, because the system is a little limited. But I can much better assess why certain things appear in certain grades and how to better sequence works for a student to learn..

..where now I might split grade 2 into 40 pieces, in a specific order (perhaps groups of 5-10), and have concrete reasons why a piece is in grade three. While practically identical to one in grade 2 so far as many of its challenges it maybe placed in my grade three because I choose not to expose a student to a work that has a key signature with 3 flats/sharps until they've done at least X number of pieces with 2 flats/sharps for example..  

But for a student at that level, they may end up finding the level 3 piece easier than some of the level 2 ones. So the grading has to do with degree of prior exposure to different concepts and learning somewhat hidden aspects in a desirable order, rather than a flat out this is harder than that.

That's a very reasonable approach.

Grades are useful in the great scale of things, when selecting pieces you can start learning now and what clearly needs to wait. But from my own experience I see the difficulty level of a piece as a complex issue. A piece can be easy in the sense of learning it to a certain level, but still be much more difficult to play really beautifully. Another piece is difficult to learn first, but doesn't require as much fine tuning...

Did you ever progress with the idea of a database? Or may we expect a book published soon?

[ajspiano]

Did you ever progress with the idea of a database? Or may we expect a book published soon?

Kind of..  there's a bit of a schema set up so that something like what I described above would work, its still limited though because its a little hard to quantify certain skill sets.

It's not practically useful though yet and won't be for ages, there is trouble in the sheer volume of data entry required..  and I don't want to go doing hours of data entry if I'm not happy with the database construction.

A piece can be easy in the sense of learning it to a certain level, but still be much more difficult to play really beautifully

Certain things that have been demanded of me by chopin 10/2 recently, that strongly impact my general ability across the board - were initially no easier to implement in repertoire that to me seems very trivial, than they are in the chopin etude, or other Chopin etudes.

[aklvkk]

You see. I am a 3 year old on the internet, arguing with "pianists". I can play nothing but




MY MUSIC BOOKS!

I think, I think...


I think I'm smelling a troll somwhere. Hmmmmmmmmmm