Keyboard Slant

[doverbay]

Greetings all.
I just got a Kawai MP10 Stage piano, and am very happy and excited with it.
I do have a question though for people with a little more experience than I.
One reason I got this model was because of the wooden keys and "grand action
Let-Off"  Which it does superbly.  But I did notice that the keyboard itself is
slanting down away from the player.  This is a visually noticeable slant, i.e.
the keys are not level with the floor.  I finally realized, that is probably because
it is a stage piano and players might be standing.  My question is this.
I know from experience that even the slightest differences on the keyboard translate
into differences in sound when playing.  Should I try and compensate by lifting that side
of the piano up about an inch?  Perhaps I'm just being silly and it's trivial. 
Just seems to me that the keyboard should be completely level though.
Thank you in advance...

[iansinclair]

Considered solely from the standpoint of the physics of a piano action, provided the slant is not great it should make no difference to a properly built action.  In an acoustic piano, gravity does serve the function of returning the hammers and the dampers to their rest position.  Therefore, if the piano action is seriously out of level there will be a difference (if the instrument is stood on end, it wouldn't work at all -- but it would be rather hard to play, too!).  Small differences in leveling shouldn't be noticeable, though.

I honestly have no idea how your Kawai's action is built -- but I would be somewhat surprised if it were seriously affected by being out of level, and even more surprised if it made a noticeable difference in the sound.

[pianoplunker]

Greetings all.
I just got a Kawai MP10 Stage piano, and am very happy and excited with it.
I do have a question though for people with a little more experience than I.
One reason I got this model was because of the wooden keys and "grand action
Let-Off"  Which it does superbly.  But I did notice that the keyboard itself is
slanting down away from the player.  This is a visually noticeable slant, i.e.
the keys are not level with the floor.  I finally realized, that is probably because
it is a stage piano and players might be standing.  My question is this.
I know from experience that even the slightest differences on the keyboard translate
into differences in sound when playing.  Should I try and compensate by lifting that side
of the piano up about an inch?  Perhaps I'm just being silly and it's trivial. 
Just seems to me that the keyboard should be completely level though.
Thank you in advance...

That seems odd to slant the keys away. Probably feels like playing downhill. Does it actually accomodate players standing ? As in being adjustable up or down ?  When I stand, I adjust the keyboard stand so the keys are level just as if I was sitting.  I often use two keyboards so it gets a little tricky but the only slant is towards me from the upper keyboard so I can see the displays and not have to bend my wrist as much .  And that still is only a slight slant towards me. I dont think you are being trivial , you can hurt yourself in short order if you are playing with your hands at a weird angles. From what you describe I would definately seek a level keyboard somehow.

[hfmadopter]

I assume this is the same slant as the MP6. First of all it is slanted yes, but it is not slanted as much as it appears to be because the end caps and top slant the other way. This gives the illusion of more slant than there actually is.

Second, if you raise your playing height a bit so your arms come off the keys level, not level to the floor, you won't know the difference.  In fact in playing you may not know the difference anyway, I doubt they are slanted even 1/4" across the width of the entire keyboard,  not just what shows of the keys. I don't feel any slant on the MP6 when I play it.

I have a question for you though since you own the MP10. Have you checked down weight closely on  the keys? You don't really have to measure it but does the weight feel stronger/heavier to you after the let off than before the let off ? My MP6 is noticeable in that regard. Just enough so that I did measure it . 50 grams or so ( might be 52 or 53 I don't recall exactly) will hold the key at the let off but you have to assist the key past the let off and the key will spring back up part way with the same weight on it when depresses further. So down wight or so called touch weight is heavier after the let off. Additionally, I believe it compounds.

 If you haven't done this do it, just so you are aware if for no other reason.

[doverbay]

Well thanks for everyones reply.
I agree with everything that has been said.
There is an optical illusion in regard to the slant however it is there.
My only true concern is that if I ever play a real grand or acoustic
then it's keyboard will feel like it is "coming at me".  Often when people
play they stroke or pull or push a key or note in, not just hammer down on it.
I was fearing that that slight little 1/4" difference between the front and rear end
of the key might make a difference in passage work in debussy or chopin.
I don't even feel it.  I hadn't even noticed anything but in passing noticed the keyboard
wasn't floor level.
I don't mean to sound like an ad for Kawai, but the entire purpose of the wooden
"RM3 Grand action with let off" was to simulate an actual acoustic keyboard in every way,
then why would they take that and then deliberately slant it in??  Hmmm.
I'll include a pic but it is hard to tell because of the illusion effect but you can see the
floor level via the red pencil.
I guess my question is... if I do compensate by say in inch in the back do you think this would
interfere with the "grand action let off" that is inherent to the system and may be affected
by the change in leveling.  
Again I don't FEEL anything different, I just don't want to screw my hands up or make it so
I won't feel comfortable playing on a level keyboard in an acoustic.
Thanks again for the... Maybe I'll bite the bullet and try to contact Kawai tech.
Thanks.
I have tried to include an image but I can't figure this board out....
so forget the image...

[hfmadopter]

If you want to level the keyboard there is nothing inside that will pendulum around and upset anything else. However, I seriously doubt you need to level it by a full inch.

[pianoplunker]

One thing to consider, if you lift up the rear, the music stand will be at a different angle which might cause books to tip over easier. Is it possible the visual is being tricked by something in the background not being straight ?  I would get a level, check the floor, and then check the keys. If they match then you know it is something about the floor angle/wall angle. If that red line on the bricks is meant to be a reference to the floor level, I wouldnt count on it 100%. Unless you know the bricks are all perfect. I can see the slant, but just wondering if the design of the keyboard is helping cause an optical illusion and not a true slant.

[hfmadopter]

One thing to consider, if you lift up the rear, the music stand will be at a different angle which might cause books to tip over easier. Is it possible the visual is being tricked by something in the background not being straight ?  I would get a level, check the floor, and then check the keys. If they match then you know it is something about the floor angle/wall angle. If that red line on the bricks is meant to be a reference to the floor level, I wouldnt count on it 100%. Unless you know the bricks are all perfect. I can see the slant, but just wondering if the design of the keyboard is helping cause an optical illusion and not a true slant.

I used a level on my MP6 ( same design more or less as the MP10) and the keys slant slightly. I did as you are saying and checked the floor first, then the keys. They read as two different angles. But again, it isn't huge and there is some optical illusion at play as well. I'd guess maybe 1/4" to 3/8" rise at teh rear would level it. I just play mine,  don't seem affected by this angle at all. In fact had forgotten about it till this thread popped up !!

[iansinclair]

Seems to me that -- barring some pendulum effect --what is important is the relationship of the angle of the keys to the angle of your forearms with the hands resting properly on the keys.  One doesn't usually even think about it -- it's sort of second nature -- but the idea is that when you move the tip of your finger backwards and forwards, say as it might be playing a C major scale (all white keys) vs. a C# major scale (mostly black) the finger shouldn't have to move up or down much to hit the keys.  Said very poorly, but maybe you can see what I mean...

So any angle which works for you!

I might mention that bigger organs (say four or five manuals) often have the upper manuals at a significant slant towards the player, and really big ones might have the lowest manual at a slant away from the player.  Looks weird, but works fine.  And the back of the keys of the lowest manual is a great place to rest a pencil...

[doverbay]

Thanks again all.
I was reading all your responses and the pencil rang a bell. When I put a standard 2A pencil
on my keyboards white keys and gently release, it rolls toward the black keys.  When I put the
pencil on the black keys it rolls away from the player.  I did also take a trusty little pocket
level and yes the keyboard does slant, and my floor is level. Also I took a level measurement
of the perpendicular reflecting surface the keys go into, and it is true.  Which means that
that relection should be straight across but you can see the slight "V".
On VERY close observation it also appears to me that the TOP of the beginning of the black
keys is a tad higher in front that in the rear is, i.e. it seems they are attempting to compensate
for a slightly lower black key FEEL because of the slant of the keyboard.
Now my keyboard stand is just your basic folding "X" stage job, simple but effective.
I know there are some stands that actually grip or are attached to the piano, they might
allow some kind of instrument leveling.  I could just put a 2" X 4" behind the back two
legs of the stand, This would probably translate out to leveling the keyboard.
But for now I'll just leave it. 
So if you want to know if your keyboard is level.... just put a pencil on it...and see which way
it rolls... .  And yes now my keyboard is a great pencil holder....

[nystul]

My MP10 does have a bit of a slant away from the player like you say, but I don't think it is enough to really affect playing.  I think pianists tend to worry about this sort of thing more than other musicians.

I don't think I would trust X stand for MP10.  They tend to wobble a bit and the MP10 is a lot heavier than most stage pianos.