VIDEO : Chopin 10/12

[ajspiano]

I noticed, in fact, that my recording of the 10/12 comes in at 3:05-a full 10 seconds longer than yours.
To my ears, however, my recording sounds faster. Probably a combination of things-more rhythmic, more even, more velocity. But it's actually quite a modest tempo that I took.

I'll have to go have another listen to yours. Depending on when you actually start and finish playing it may be even more - there's about 6 seconds of dead time in mine.

Clarity in the LH probably makes a big difference to the perceived speed, and I think while I can play it fluently there is a general lack of clarity. Combination of over pedaling and the room I think. Making things like the crescendo at the peak of the LH waves come out more would make a difference too... and sometime I put a slowing rubato at the beginning of the left hand way where I could push on for a different effect of moving forward.

......

Either way, thanks for the kind words - I must say I'm quite impressed by your recording project with these - something I plan to do myself in the future, little (long) way to go though yet. I'm terrible at recording because I'm phenomenally picky about playing that I'm going to label as something I'm genuinely proud of.

I heard the most incredibly fast rendition of 25/4 on the radio today in the car. It was Lang Lang. I must admit it was very impressive in some ways, but it didn't leave a very deep impression on me musically

Theres a richter 10/4 that has that effect on me to a degree. Its quite insane.. sometimes I like it, sometimes I find it ridiculous.

maybe its been sped up though..

[j_menz]

Velocity is speed and direction. Velocity is three dimensional.

Given that direction is three dimensional on its own,and speed can be in  any of those, doesn't that make 6 all up?

[awesom_o]

Given that direction is three dimensional on its own,and speed can be in  any of those, doesn't that make 6 all up?

Probably at least. The piano is a magical machine which can act as a portal into the realm of the Gods. Music is MORE than three-dimensional. Musical texture alone, is at least three-dimensional. Melody travels in a linear fashion in real time, but it also goes up in down in pitch. The x axis is time, the y axis is pitch. And that's just a simple melody. Throw is counterpoint, harmony, and the number of parameters which we need to constantly control in order to create good musical performance is simply mind boggling....


 

[awesom_o]

I'll have to go have another listen to yours. Depending on when you actually start and finish playing it may be even more - there's about 6 seconds of dead time in mine.

Clarity in the LH probably makes a big difference to the perceived speed, and I think while I can play it fluently there is a general lack of clarity. Combination of over pedaling and the room I think. Making things like the crescendo at the peak of the LH waves come out more would make a difference too... and sometime I put a slowing rubato at the beginning of the left hand way where I could push on for a different effect of moving forward.

......

Either way, thanks for the kind words - I must say I'm quite impressed by your recording project with these - something I plan to do myself in the future, little (long) way to go though yet. I'm terrible at recording because I'm phenomenally picky about playing that I'm going to label as something I'm genuinely proud of.
Theres a richter 10/4 that has that effect on me to a degree. Its quite insane.. sometimes I like it, sometimes I find it ridiculous.

maybe its been sped up though..

The famous handkerchief video. I think it is sped up-the pitch isn't right. If it isn't sped up-it is still too fast, imo. I love Richter-he was one of the great artists. A great artist has discretion with tempo that a not-great-artist doesn't have. Think how slow his Schubert often was-and yet Gould felt that Richter's connection to Schubert was unsurpassed!

 Those things you spoke of will make the 10/12 more effective regardless of tempo. Better waves, more spartan pedaling, etc. I think a better recording set up would be needed. Piano playing never sounds very good in videos unless condenser mics are involved.

I know what you mean with recording. Being happy with a live performance and being happy with a recording are very separate things.

[avengeil]

Very nice rendition.

  The only thing that rather asks to be worked on is the matter of flow in the piece (or velocity depending on your terminology). Three idea that might improve it...

  At measures 7-8 you accentuate the higher note of the group, for example the first time b flat comes and then at the highest e flat. For me that stops the follow of the passage, you could try emphasizing the sense of direction on the two sixteenth notes that are repeated for example in bar 7 beat 2 the second eb d.
   
   It seems to me like you are thinking of the main theme (upbeat to measure 11) as two separate stuff. c d . and then eb eb. Maybe it all leads to the e flat a bit more directly and less lyrically than you are playing it. At times one could make the first e flat extremely small to accentuate the passion even more.

   Another example is at measure 19 and 20.... even though you are coming from a diminuendo and you should be piano the lower c comes out to strong destroying (maybe a bit too harsh of a word) the sense of direction.  In my opinion that c is the subtle beginning of a climb to the e flat.

 Just some thoughts

   
 

[emill]

Hi!

I would not dare comment on the technical aspects of your playing as there are so many excellently qualified to do that here (and besides I am not a pianist). I would just like to say that after reading all the comments it has again reinforced my opinion that pianists in particular may decrease their appreciation and enjoyment of a piece by the "rules" they have been taught and imposed on themselves as standards for playing a particular piece, especially those which have been thoroughly studied and are standard staple in piano education.  Personally I feel this creates some degree of disconnect with the "classical" going audience which over the decades have been slowly but surely going down in numbers.

My son Enzo has been for the past 3-4 months self-studying among others, Chopin's 24 etudes in preparation and as advised by his future teacher to be.  However this July, his local teacher started guiding him. Frankly I seemed to have enjoyed better the manner by which he expressed musically a good number of the etudes before the "rules" were applied. Perhaps it is just an "unschooled ear's" point of view, but it still seemed to me to have been more enjoyable.  And that seems to be the opinion too of those who listen to him. Perhaps it may be that he is still in the development stage of the etudes.  Just my observation.

As I have often tell David (rachfan), my "music education" has been helped a lot by threads like this were a good amount of exchange has occurred. It has opened up my mind to so many things I have not even thought of before.  Thanks to those who have contributed to the discussions.

Personally I think your "revolutionary" is GOOD. My ears like it! Reading the comments somewhat spoiled my enjoyment!   Not that they were or are inaccurate comments, I would not know that, but it is just that my thoughts about how you played it got somewhat diluted.  

THANKS for sharing.

 

[ajspiano]

Thanks for your comments emill, I think the trouble is perhaps the more you read and process the more you begin to understand whats not there and it upsets the original appreciation for someone who originally just listened and took the sound at face value as either good or bad.

I think what you said about the rules sometimes diminishing a performance is quite telling. Gyzzmos comment way back at the start about the way I accent the lower C in the LH theme was/is totally valid - but I just don't hear it the "right way" where its softer and rising to the top of the wave. If I play it that was it doesnt really feel right to me. I just LOVE the sound of that crescendo, but with a strong accented resonant low C at the beginning.

.... anyway, if anyone is interested, the part of this performance that bugged me the most is here below, with marks in red of some approximation of what I intended and failed to actually do. Most specifically in relation to the first bar of the last line here. I hate hearing that back, the way the melody was played there... its just so thoughtless and brushed over.




.............


Hi avengeil, thanks for your comments.

  At measures 7-8 you accentuate the higher note of the group, for example the first time b flat comes and then at the highest e flat. For me that stops the follow of the passage, you could try emphasizing the sense of direction on the two sixteenth notes that are repeated for example in bar 7 beat 2 the second eb d.

   
this is actually very deliberate.

   It seems to me like you are thinking of the main theme (upbeat to measure 11) as two separate stuff. c d . and then eb eb. Maybe it all leads to the e flat a bit more directly and less lyrically than you are playing it. At times one could make the first e flat extremely small to accentuate the passion even more.

Thanks for this, I will do some experiementation around that soon.

   Another example is at measure 19 and 20.... even though you are coming from a diminuendo and you should be piano the lower c comes out to strong destroying (maybe a bit too harsh of a word) the sense of direction.  In my opinion that c is the subtle beginning of a climb to the e flat.

I like this also, -
as I've mentioned above generally I like the bottom C to be very strong and resonant, but perhaps in spots like this one it really is an ideal spot to not do that, at the end of that fading melodic phrase before the rise to the next one.