horizontal versus vertical and listening vs self-delusion

[nyiregyhazi]

The horizontal vs vertical debate is so similar to the diet vs exercise argument that rages on - everyone seems to have a polarizing opinion that one is better than the other.

Why not simply agree that in order to lose weight and live a healthy lifestyle that diet and exercise are BOTH important and should be practiced, and that horizontal and vertical voicings are BOTH critical to achieving the desired colours and sound on the piano?

exactly. I have absolutely no idea why anyone would be under the impression that you can only select a single point of view. unfortunately, countless musicians have reacted to the fact that horizontal lines are hard to achieve by painting the vertical elements as an inherently bad thing to pay attention to. horizontal is deemed good and vertical is deemed bad. ironically, failing to listen properly to balance in each moment in time (which means vertical listening) actively contributes to the lack of coherent lines.

[pianoman53]

exactly. I have absolutely no idea why anyone would be under the impression that you can only select a single point of view.

THE IRONY!!!!!

[timothy42b]

. unfortunately, countless musicians have reacted to the fact that horizontal lines are hard to achieve by painting the vertical elements as an inherently bad thing to pay attention to.

Do you have any evidence for what I see as a completely unwarranted assertion? 

You're stating this as absolute incontrovertible fact. 

But saying it doesn't make it true, at least for me. 

[nyiregyhazi]

THE IRONY!!!!!

the only irony is that you try to label me as small minded for illustrating the wider picture. I am only small minded in my dismissal of opinions that take but one small part of the puzzle and overlook the rest of it- for example Timothy42b's very narrow views on issues of rhythm. try reading my first post in the thread again and reminding yourself what it actually states- ie the folly of neglecting one part of the puzzle and devoting attention too exclusively to another, without coming back to see the whole.

[nyiregyhazi]

Do you have any evidence for what I see as a completely unwarranted assertion?  

You're stating this as absolute incontrovertible fact.  

But saying it doesn't make it true, at least for me.  

anyone who has studied piano to an advanced level and attended masterclasses by professional musicians will have come across the very common criticism of playing for being too vertical and not horizontal enough. I'm not going to trawl the Internet for the sake of referencing something so widespread and commonly known. do some googling and you'll like find an abundance of references. Never in my time of studying however, have I heard a teacher tell someone that they are not paying enough attention to vertical issues. of course, you'd hope that most good teachers deal with the issues via different language. However, due to the word vertical always being reserved for use in a negative light, it's clear that some people have misunderstood how important vertical balancing issues are to horizontal lines.


find me one instance of someone complimenting someone on how well their playing is constructed vertically (without going on to criticise them horizontally) and I'll be the first to take note. this polarisation of issues creates a fallacious impression that horizontal playing is altogether independent of vertical issues. it isn't. it's the product of ongoing logically connected vertical control. lose the vertical control and you lose everything that makes horionzontal lines possible.

[awesom_o]

Personally, I think understanding music in terms of using a black and white, simple x axis and y axis reduces it somewhat. In my opinion, there are at least several other axes involved....

[nyiregyhazi]

Personally, I think understanding music in terms of using a black and white, simple x axis and y axis reduces it somewhat. In my opinion, there are at least several other axes involved....

fair point. the way Gilels varies the repeat in Bach Siloti is heard completely differently in the light of what he did the first time round. it wouldn't sound so remarkable had he not played it so strictly and relatively boringly the first time. it's more like a string theory issue than a two axis one- because the impression of how you hear his sound in the present is coloured as much by contrast against what happened a few minutes ago as it is by the horizontal and vertical issues in that present. huge numbers of factors play a part and willful ignorance to any of them is going to impose limitations.


anyway, my point is that I'd prefer pianists to fully acknowledge two axes than one (plus another one that they just about acknowledge to exist but which they don't particularly want to either talk about or pay any conscious attention to)

[awesom_o]

I agree with you.

I find many 'professional' pianists play in a very 2-dimensional, colourless, very 'horizontal-thinking' manner. In my country, this type of playing is sadly quite popular, and is considered to be in good taste by many who are less educated about piano playing.

Really extreme sound texture, and bold artistic ideas are a thing of the past in my neck of the woods. Pianists are moving towards a more homogenized approach to music-making. Fast, bland, monochrome pianists with poor understanding of rubato can win competitions and have careers if they have bullet-proof memory, enough competition experience, and the right connections.

Very few pianists these days have the flexibility of sound and understanding of style that the true greats had and in a few cases continue to have.

[nyiregyhazi]

I agree with you.

I find many 'professional' pianists play in a very 2-dimensional, colourless, very 'horizontal-thinking' manner. In my country, this type of playing is sadly quite popular, and is considered to be in good taste by many who are less educated about piano playing.

Really extreme sound texture, and bold artistic ideas are a thing of the past in my neck of the woods. Pianists are moving towards a more homogenized approach to music-making. Fast, bland, monochrome pianists with poor understanding of rubato can win competitions and have careers if they have bullet-proof memory, enough competition experience, and the right connections.

Very few pianists these days have the flexibility of sound and understanding of style that the true greats had and in a few cases continue to have.

absolutely - there's usually a generic horizontal momentum with little attention to vertical balance or dynamic shaping. this actually results in less shaping or delineation of horizontal strands an even makes the results sound vertically oriented and choppy. however, people are always more inclined to complain about those who make an attempt to create colours but who fail to carry coherent lines through from one note to the next. anyone who gets caught up in a campaign to fix the problem by only seeing it from only one end almost inevitably just ends up placing themselves firmly into one of these categories of poor musicians.


Benjamin Grosvenor is one of few current pianists who both sustains coherent lines and explores vertical differentiation and balances in the moment. Virtually all of the big names just have the generic forward momentum that doesn't involve much notable differentiation between lines, if any. Even with Volodos (who I rate very highly) a thrust of forward movement sometimes leaves his sound sounding monochromatic for a little while. some people claim Grosvenor's playing is incoherent, but these are just the kind of idiots whose idea of rhythm is what happens when you programme notes into Sibelius. I can't think of better example of a pianist who sees the big picture properly.

[cuberdrift]

I can't help but ask, what is 'vertical/horizontal listening'?