Need help with Arpeggios Fingering.

[senanserat]

Greetings!

I am working on something on my spare time but even though it doesn't seems to complex or anything me being a greenhorn still wet behind the ears (to my great shame) I am not quite acquainted with arpeggios fingering.

And while I managed to get some fingering to what I think is decent and ergonomic I am having most trouble figuring what t do in ones that require larger jumps.

Here is the passage with the fingering I decided to use and with ? and circles to show the notes giving me trouble. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.




Thanks a lot in advance.

[nyiregyhazi]

Greetings!

I am working on something on my spare time but even though it doesn't seems to complex or anything me being a greenhorn still wet behind the ears (to my great shame) I am not quite acquainted with arpeggios fingering.

And while I managed to get some fingering to what I think is decent and ergonomic I am having most trouble figuring what t do in ones that require larger jumps.

Here is the passage with the fingering I decided to use and with ? and circles to show the notes giving me trouble. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.




Thanks a lot in advance.

try not to think in fingers but in chunks. your written fingering involves needless departures from what would fit quite conveniently into a single chunk. you're looking at notes as individual details but missing their context. there's no call to use different fingers on the same notes on the way back down. don't ever consider a single finger out of the context of a bigger chunk. and don't be afraid to use the thumb on a black key, if that's the top of the chunk. it's only when passing over that this would be a bad thing. your fingering involved needless complexity to avoid the thumb on the c sharp, but it's far easier to get into a three note chunk after the bass A than to go in and out of positions. bear these things in mind and the fingering should find itself.

[senanserat]

try not to think in fingers but in chunks. your written fingering involves needless departures from what would fit quite conveniently into a single chunk. you're looking at notes as individual details but missing their context. there's no call to use different fingers on the same notes on the way back down. don't ever consider a single finger out of the context of a bigger chunk. and don't be afraid to use the thumb on a black key, if that's the top of the chunk. it's only when passing over that this would be a bad thing. your fingering involved needless complexity to avoid the thumb on the c sharp, but it's far easier to get into a three note chunk after the bass A than to go in and out of positions. bear these things in mind and the fingering should find itself.

In case I didn't clarify, my problems are regarding the bass lines. That aside I though it was a good idea to use the fingering for say C#minor in the first arpeggio because after all it is the standard isn't it?

>.< Sorry english is not my main language thus your explanation kinda eludes me.

[nyiregyhazi]

In case I didn't clarify, my problems are regarding the bass lines. That aside I though it was a good idea to use the fingering for say C#minor in the first arpeggio because after all it is the standard isn't it?

>.< Sorry english is not my main language thus your explanation kinda eludes me.

group as many notes and fingers as possible into one shape and reduce adjustments to the absolute minimum. it's a matter of getting all the notes under the hand rather than finding the fingers one by one. when you think this way, there are relatively few possible fingerings available for most of this. I wouldn't switch to c sharp minor fingering for its own sake. you already had a perfectly good three there, which gets you down to the 5th finger far more easily than the 4 you replace it with. standard arpeggio fingerings are scarcely an issue here. it's a matter how you fit many notes into one big position for the hand.

[senanserat]

group as many notes and fingers as possible into one shape and reduce adjustments to the absolute minimum. it's a matter of getting all the notes under the hand rather than finding the fingers one by one. when you think this way, there are relatively few possible fingerings available for most of this. I wouldn't switch to c sharp minor fingering for its own sake. you already had a perfectly good three there, which gets you down to the 5th finger far more easily than the 4 you replace it with. standard arpeggio fingerings are scarcely an issue here. it's a matter how you fit many notes into one big position for the hand.

Oh I see now thanks! I will pay heed to your advice for that. But what about those note high up after the arpeggio such in measure 4 and 5? Does it means that I should use the closet finger for the first notes and then jump for the last one? Or would it be wise to stretch at the beginning so the jump is shorter?

I know the jump will have to occur regardless of the fingering (I don't like big jumps =[ )
but whatever helps more is what I would rather choose.

Thanks!

[j_menz]

Oh I see now thanks! I will pay heed to your advice for that. But what about those note high up after the arpeggio such in measure 4 and 5? Does it means that I should use the closet finger for the first notes and then jump for the last one? Or would it be wise to stretch at the beginning so the jump is shorter?

I know the jump will have to occur regardless of the fingering (I don't like big jumps =[ )
but whatever helps more is what I would rather choose.

Thanks!

5-1-3-1

No jump required.

[senanserat]

B-F#-B-F#  with 5-1-3-1

You're a genius! Although the transition from 1 to 3 is borderline uncomfortable I guess I will have to endure. Perhaps with practice like everything it won't be such a hassle.

My experience with this as I said is limited, thus I really appreciate your help.

For the next measure -A-A-E-A would something like that is still viable? 1-5-3-1 I assume.

Also I assume that for your fingering the next notes in pattern(where the apreggio comes back for two notes) would be 1-3-5?

Thanks a lot!

[j_menz]

B-F#-B-F#  with 5-1-3-1

No. I was referring to the next two figures, with the octave as the first two notes  (A-A-E-A and B-B-F#-B).

The B-F#-B-F# should be 5-3-2-1. It shouldn't be uncomfortable at all.

There's a sort of wavy motion of the hand that I don't know how to describe in words. If you do a search for fingering the bass of the Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu someone may well have managed it.

In essence, the hand moves to close the gap between notes so that there is no effort to stretch the hand required - it should all feel pretty comfortable and relaxed, not like you're stretching the fingers out at all.

[senanserat]

No. I was referring to the next two figures, with the octave as the first two notes  (A-A-E-A and B-B-F#-B).

The B-F#-B-F# should be 5-3-2-1. It shouldn't be uncomfortable at all.

There's a sort of wavy motion of the hand that I don't know how to describe in words. If you do a search for fingering the bass of the Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu someone may well have managed it.

In essence, the hand moves to close the gap between notes so that there is no effort to stretch the hand required - it should all feel pretty comfortable and relaxed, not like you're stretching the fingers out at all.

Oh okay! I get it know, damn I feel ignorant but better ask and cure.
I will definitely try this tomorrow (11pm atm) and I will check right now the Fantasie's video for tips on the hand movement, thanks a lot for your willingness in correcting and proving support.

A-A-E-A and B-B-F#-B=  5131.
B-F#-B-F# = 5-3-2-1
C#-G#-C#-E will most likely change to implement the 5 finger then.

[j_menz]

Oh okay! I get it know, damn I feel ignorant but better ask and cure.
I will definitely try this tomorrow (11pm atm) and I will check right now the Fantasie's video for tips on the hand movement, thanks a lot for your willingness in correcting and proving support.

Haha - everyone, I think, has a bit of a double take when they first encounter these kind of figures.  They're actually pretty common in romantic and later repertoire, but almost unheard of earlier.  For the start, just take it slow - it may feel kinda odd, but it should never feel uncomfortable or strained. Only speed up when it's working naturally and reliably. It should feel surprisingly effortless once you get the hang of it.

Other places to look for tips would be ajspiano's posts on his Chopin etude 10/1. There the figure is in the RH, but the principle is the same.

[nyiregyhazi]

5-1-3-1

No jump required.

Why specifically 3? fingerings don't have to conform strictly to arpeggios at all times, if it contradicts the logic of a chunk. however, isn't it a little odd to have to bring 3 so close to the thumb and then have to stretch further to reach 5? although this would be a necessity in a dominant 7th, I'd find it significantly more comfortable to get into the upper position with a 2, in line with regular A major arpeggio fingering. it keeps the four fingers much closer to their natural configuration and allows the 5th to function more easily. as a guideline, opening space between thumb and second is easy, so it's better to open more between those than to have to open the four fingers out further between each other.

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh I see now thanks! I will pay heed to your advice for that. But what about those note high up after the arpeggio such in measure 4 and 5? Does it means that I should use the closet finger for the first notes and then jump for the last one? Or would it be wise to stretch at the beginning so the jump is shorter?

I know the jump will have to occur regardless of the fingering (I don't like big jumps =[ )
but whatever helps more is what I would rather choose.

Thanks!

as a general rule never jump at the top. it's too easily heard as an interruption of musical logic. however, you can jump from bass notes to the next note, as long as you don't accent the following note. this can even improve the quality of sound, as long as you control the bass first. a tiny hesitation often helps the bass register in the ear as a separate musical line, whereas it would be totally inappropriate to hear the hand jumping mid arpeggio.

note that for the ones that start with the octaves, there are two chunks. the octave and then a second chunk at the top. they can be linked by the fingering (rather than jumped between) but still observe the principle of two chunks and practise playing all notes together as chords, for a unified feel. The trick to the mental processing is to work backwards and calculate from the top of the chunk down. for the one that ends c sharp f sharp g sharp, this will mean playing the bass note completely separately and then bringing the hand up for all of the following notes in a single position. Some people would likely calculate from the bottom upwards and then run out of fingers and then have to pass over the thumb, rather than get to it at the top. I find that clumsy and awkward. A single bass note (that is separated both physically and in terms of its deeper sound quality) followed by a single position for the other notes is much easier to organise mentally and also easier to do physically.


EDIT- actually a few adjustments to that last due to the specific issues of this piece. that the bass occurs on the offbeat changes it a little. starting on a beat it would be fine to hesitate marginally after each bass, but with the offbeat bass it does need to link to the next beat. you could even argue that c sharp and g sharp are both bass notes implied as a separate voice- so I'd go 52121. that way, you end up aligned to the upper chunk (without any awkward adjustments for the last note) but you can be sure to preserve the tight rhythm from c sharp to g sharp at the bottom too. it gives a logic to both bottom and top.

[j_menz]

Why specifically 3?

3 is most comfortable for me, I think, but 2 is fine too.

[senanserat]

Yeah my teacher also told me to use 2, but I guess 3 or 2 depends on the differences for the hands.

As for your post Mr.Nyire, I think I get what you mean. You're saying that instead of playing all the notes legato from the beginning to take advantage of the rhythm and play the first note as a "separate" entity?

For example, Bass Note ("jump" or move) to the rest three?

I just came from my lessons today so asap I rest a bit more I will go and check which one seems more natural and produces the best sound.

I know this may be asking for too much but... is there any chance any of you guys is willing to video the bass line for a demonstration? I feel like there are some subtle movements and things that cannot be expressed by words.

After all, and its rather appropriate, isn't music a way to express things we cannot say with words.

J_menz, I am checking Chopin's Etudes by ajspiano as we speak