Chopin Ballades or Debussy Pour le Piano

[h_chopin148]

So, I started a previous topic about how I will start a Brahms piece soon, but today I had a discussion with my teacher and we decided that I will start a Chopin Ballade instead. My teacher said that I could choose which one I wanted to play other than the 4th since that is the most technically difficult and I may not be ready for it. I am deciding between the 2nd and 3rd ballade. Technically they seem about the same I think, but the third seems to be a bit more musically challenging. Which one should I play? Or should I play the 1st ballade or is that much harder than the 2nd and 3rd? Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I may also play Debussy Pour le Piano. I will most likely play the whole suite if I do play it. How does this compare to the Chopin Ballades in terms of technical difficulty?

[blazekenny]

the 2nd ballade is generally considered the easier option.
The 3rd requires alot of experience and big musicianship, many people underestimate it

[classicalnhiphop]

The second ballade is much more technically challenging than the third, and a good bit harder than the first.  Musically and emotionally, I find them to be quite different.  The third is generally a happy piece with pretty melodies everywhere.  But I find the second to be much more emotionally engrossing, requiring you to really put yourself into it.  There's the lighthearted first part, but then a tempest right afterwards.  I find that this one has a very dark and angry mood in it.  Overall I'd say the second is overall much more difficult.  The third one isn't that hard, but no cakewalk either way. 
Good luck!

[boneil3774]

My understanding is that the first and second ballades are very similar in terms of difficulty, the third ballade is somewhat easier, but the fourth is MUCH harder - technically and musically.

[qpalqpal]

I am pretty inexperienced, but I spoke to a pianist who told me that regardless of difficulty, musically or technically, the 4th ballade requires an immense maturity, likewise with the 1st.

Personally, I don't care much for the other two ballades. If your gonna go less than the 1st and 4th, maybe go scherzo? Those pieces are beautiful, number 1 especially. But... if you like the middle ballades, go ahead.

Anyways, don't take what I say too seriously, I'm no one 

Esteban

[h_chopin148]

My teacher also told me to consider Debussy Pour le Piano. What do you think about that?

[qpalqpal]

The benefit of that is that it is a little less known, and its more 'adventurous'.

[pianoman53]

Don't underestimate the second. To make the first theme sound well is very difficult. The second theme is somewhat okay, but the coda extremely difficult.

[forgottenbooks]

They are all very hard. But I find that the fourth is actually quite simple to play up until the climax toward the end and the coda. (Even those can be learnt with practice.)

The first has some very exhausting passages in the middle, and is in my opinion one of the most difficult to pull off musically. For instance, the waltz that comes in after the first theme leading up to the first climax is something that I find difficult to play satisfyingly. The runs and scales that come in after the A-major passage are just so awkward under the fingers. And don't get me started on the coda.

The third as someone mentioned is easy to underestimate because it seems the simplest of the four. But it's also very easy to give a bad performance of it. There is so much subtlety and emotion that can be lost in the hands of an insufficiently skilled or experienced pianist.

[h_chopin148]

I think I am leaning towards the third ballade or the Debussy...

[h_chopin148]

The double notes at the end of the 2nd ballade sort of scares me...

[qpalqpal]

I'd say play what you like, regardless of the challenge. That being said, check with your teacher about the second ballade. It would be awesome to learn.

[lojay]

The double notes at the end of the 2nd ballade sort of scares me...

They're actually very comfortable.

Which one should I play? Or should I play the 1st ballade or is that much harder than the 2nd and 3rd? Thanks in advance.

I'm not familiar enough with the Debussy to relate the Ballades to Pour le Piano, but I can compare the Ballades since I'm well acquainted with them.

My first piano teacher rated the Ballades as follows (easiest to hardest): 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 4th.  I've learned the 3rd and 1st and am currently working on the 4th and I really disagree with him.

The 2nd Ballade has the fewest variety different technical difficulties and is probably the easiest to learn.  The 2nd Ballade's technical challenges are very external and are obvious to the listener; people unfamiliar with the piano would probably be like-"wow that sounds hard".  If you have the technique for the Presto con Fuoco and Agitato sections (the last 4 or so pages) you basically only need to learn notes.

For the most part, the 3rd Ballade, isn't as seemingly virtuostic.  A lot of the technical difficulties of the 3rd Ballade aren't so obvious to the listener. When I listened to a recording of the piece, I thought the only really "technical" part of the piece was the section with the broken chords (the part after the right hand plays broken octaves).  When I learned the piece, there were tons of sections that sounded very natural and easy (when listening to a recording) but were painful for me to get how I wanted. I'd say among the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Ballades, this Ballade requires the most ingenuity with pedaling.

The 1st Ballade has more of that showy kind of virtuosity than the 3rd (basically, in terms of hitting the notes, if it sounds easy, it's probably easy - there are a few exceptions though). The sheer number of different technical difficulties is probably around the number found in the 3rd, but the first Ballade is longer.  I spent the most time on the Coda of the 1st Ballade by a large margin.

[h_chopin148]

They're actually very comfortable.

I'm not familiar enough with the Debussy to relate the Ballades to Pour le Piano, but I can compare the Ballades since I'm well acquainted with them.

My first piano teacher rated the Ballades as follows (easiest to hardest): 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 4th.  I've learned the 3rd and 1st and am currently working on the 4th and I really disagree with him.

The 2nd Ballade has the fewest variety different technical difficulties and is probably the easiest to learn.  The 2nd Ballade's technical challenges are very external and are obvious to the listener; people unfamiliar with the piano would probably be like-"wow that sounds hard".  If you have the technique for the Presto con Fuoco and Agitato sections (the last 4 or so pages) you basically only need to learn notes.

For the most part, the 3rd Ballade, isn't as seemingly virtuostic.  A lot of the technical difficulties of the 3rd Ballade aren't so obvious to the listener. When I listened to a recording of the piece, I thought the only really "technical" part of the piece was the section with the broken chords (the part after the right hand plays broken octaves).  When I learned the piece, there were tons of sections that sounded very natural and easy (when listening to a recording) but were painful for me to get how I wanted. I'd say among the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Ballades, this Ballade requires the most ingenuity with pedaling.

The 1st Ballade has more of that showy kind of virtuosity than the 3rd (basically, in terms of hitting the notes, if it sounds easy, it's probably easy - there are a few exceptions though). The sheer number of different technical difficulties is probably around the number found in the 3rd, but the first Ballade is longer.  I spent the most time on the Coda of the 1st Ballade by a large margin.

I tried playing through the first Ballade today and the hardest part was the Presto con Fuoco.  There were some very easy sections and then there are sections that would require a lot more work.  But I feel like the first ballade is overplayed so I was thinking of playing the second or third instead. Right now I'm leaning a bit more towards the third.

[lojay]

If you want a piece that takes less work overall to complete, I'd say go for the 2nd Ballade.

If you are going to do the 3rd Ballade, practice your octave tremolos with your left hand with the 1-3/1-4 fingerings on black and white keys (this section gave me the most trouble).

The section similar to the presto con fuoco of the 1st Ballade is much easier than the presto con fuoco of the 1st Ballade.

What happened to Pour le Piano?

But I find that the fourth is actually quite simple to play up until the climax toward the end and the coda.

Really?  I'm currently learning this and I've found at most like 3-4 minutes of the piece that I would consider simple.  You must be a beast!  Even if you remove the coda, I think the 4th Ballade is still more difficult than the other Ballades.

For example, the section where right hand is playing two voices, one voice with 1/2/3 and the second subject with 3/4/5 was a struggle for me.  After that section, the broken chords after the octaves were annoying as hell.  The legato fifths were not fun at all.  The section immediately after the fifths where the first and second subjects are woven together was annoying as hell to get to a point where I could properly voice these.  The technique required for voicing in the 1st/2nd/3rd Ballades is like childsplay compared to technique required for voicing in the 4th.

[h_chopin148]

If you want a piece that takes less work overall to complete, I'd say go for the 2nd Ballade.

If you are going to do the 3rd Ballade, practice your octave tremolos with your left hand with the 1-3/1-4 fingerings on black and white keys (this section gave me the most trouble).

The section similar to the presto con fuoco of the 1st Ballade is much easier than the presto con fuoco of the 1st Ballade.

What happened to Pour le Piano?

Pour le Piano doesn't seem that hard, I could play through it at a slow tempo, just getting it up to a good tempo will be the challenge I think.

[lojay]

Pour le Piano doesn't seem that hard, I could play through it at a slow tempo, just getting it up to a good tempo will be the challenge I think.

You can say that for just about anything, no?

[h_chopin148]

You can say that for just about anything, no?

Well pour le piano seems easier than the Chopin ballades, imo. The toccata seems challenging though.

[chapplin]

Pour le piano, first and second movements are ALOT easier compared to the ballades. Toccata movement is pretty hard, however. I found ballades harder still.

[chopinrabbitthing]

The third ballade.
I just finished learning it, and it's great. It gives you a better overview of the ballades as a whole and is a bit easier, musically and definitely technically. I think it's better to learn this first before jumping on the others.

Good luck!

[h_chopin148]

My teacher and I have decided to start with Pour le Piano and the after I will play Chopin's 3rd ballade. Once I get a good start on Pour le Piano I may post in the audition room.

[prestoconfuocco]

I'd go with the third one. It's much easier than the others (Still really difficult, but the 1st and 2nd are dreadful, not to mention the fourth) and more fun to learn. It's also the least musically complicated of the ballades.

[h_chopin148]

I'd go with the third one. It's much easier than the others (Still really difficult, but the 1st and 2nd are dreadful, not to mention the fourth) and more fun to learn. It's also the least musically complicated of the ballades.

I have started Debussy Pour le Piano but I am going to play the 3rd ballade after. 

[nanabush]

I played Pour le Piano before, as well as the first Ballade.  Personally I found the third movement of the Debussy more difficult because it didn't seem as obvious musically... there are some really nasty awkward spots (I'm sure you will find them sooner than later lol), and there are some very abrupt mood swings in it that are a little hard to interpret.

That being said, the Sarabande is BEAUTIFUL and the Prelude is a great showpiece with (for me) the trickiest bit being the coordination of a LH octave passage with a RH glissando.

A few of my friends played the 3rd Ballade in first year university, and said that there was nothing really nasty in it, and that it takes an appropriate amount of time (just like any other piece).  One of my friends played the Debussy in her 3rd year recital, and found the Toccata nightmarish (she played the Chopin f minor Fantasy in 2nd year, and it was stunning).  For some people it'll be different, but I think she just really found the patterns in the Toccata harder to master (and I would have to agree there).

[david456103]

pour le piano toccata is insanely hard IMO(well that was a while ago,not sure about now). I would say technically it is comparable to the 1st ballade. The rest of pour le piano is not that hard(technically).

[symphonicdance]

In UK exam syllabus, Chopin Ballade No 3 is for Associate diploma, but Ballades Nos 1, 2, 4 and are for Licentiate diploma.  Go for Ballade No 3 first perhaps....  In terms of difficulties, I would rank these ballades as follows: 3rd (less challenging), 2nd, 1st and 4th (most). 

If you haven't reasonably studied Debussy in the past, then Pour Le Piano may not be a good choice.  BTW, Boris Berman have a masterclass DVD on Debussy Pour Le Piano (abstract of it on youtube).

Good luck.

[nanabush]

Ya a few of the Preludes, or the Arabesques, Suite Bergamasque, etc, would be a good entry point.  If someone's first interaction with Debussy is the Prelude from 'pour le piano', they will be a little perplexed.

Another thing I'd like to add for the Ballades; try to pick the one that you will ENJOY playing the most; if you are shying away from them because of a section that looks hard, then learning it will be really grating.  I played the first Ballade without having played any of the other ones, just because at the time it was my favorite one.  Now, I would probably lean towards the third Ballade.  I don't really care if it is 'the easiest' of the bunch, but I am comfortable that I could work on it and have it at a level where I would like playing it for other people.

[h_chopin148]

I am currently working on Debussy Pour le Piano, my teacher decided that I should play this for the Ballades, after this I'm either going to play Ballade 2 or 3, my teacher and I have not decided yet which ballade I should play after.

[h_chopin148]

Ya a few of the Preludes, or the Arabesques, Suite Bergamasque, etc, would be a good entry point.  If someone's first interaction with Debussy is the Prelude from 'pour le piano', they will be a little perplexed.

Another thing I'd like to add for the Ballades; try to pick the one that you will ENJOY playing the most; if you are shying away from them because of a section that looks hard, then learning it will be really grating.  I played the first Ballade without having played any of the other ones, just because at the time it was my favorite one.  Now, I would probably lean towards the third Ballade.  I don't really care if it is 'the easiest' of the bunch, but I am comfortable that I could work on it and have it at a level where I would like playing it for other people.

I have played some of the Children's Corner and I have played Clair de Lune before this.