Chopin Ballades

[jorley]

Hi everyone!
I wonder about the difference in technical difficulty between Ballade 1 and Ballade 4 by Chopin; is the 4th much harder technically or are they about the same? Will one who is able to play the 1st Ballade well be ready to make an attempt on the 4th?

[prestoconfuocco]

The fourth ballade is a lot more difficult, both techinally and musically.
Whether or not a person can play it after playing the first one depends - I knew a guy who learned the first ballade perfectly in less that a month (!), and started the fourth one right after, and it worked out for him.
But usually it'd be smarter to play at least two ballades before attempting the fourth one, or play other large scale workes by Chopin. (Sonata movements, advanced polonaises, etc.)
Try sight reading the whole thing, and if you're entierly certain that you're ready, go for it. If not, try some other pieces first.

[jorley]

Do you have any suggestions on Chopin pieces that are at the same level as the 1st ballade? How about the Polonaise-fantasie or the Fantasie Op 49? Or are there any Beethoven sonatas that are about the same difficulty as the 1st ballade?

[ale_ius]

Do you have any suggestions on Chopin pieces that are at the same level as the 1st ballade?

This probably at least as difficult (more in some way, easier than in others) as that-those ballade(s) of Chopin. Very pretty, I like better than them actually.

F.Kalkbrenner - Variations brilliantes on a mazurka by Chopin, Op.120

-Alee Marie.

[prestoconfuocco]

Do you have any suggestions on Chopin pieces that are at the same level as the 1st ballade? How about the Polonaise-fantasie or the Fantasie Op 49? Or are there any Beethoven sonatas that are about the same difficulty as the 1st ballade?

Nah, both the fantasie op. 49 and the polonaise-fantasie op. 61 are about as hard as that 4th ballade, if not more.
The best suggestion would be to tackle the 3rd or 2nd ballades - the 3rd being easier than the first, the 2nd harder. Also, though the fantasie-impromptu op. 66 is easier than the first ballade, it builds a lot of technique, so it's a good choice.
You can also try out a scherzo - probably the second or third. If you like the first you can try it too, but stay AWAY from the fourth.
I have some other suggestions, but I think they're not as good as the ones suggested above:
Polonaies - Eb minor, Bb minor, D minor.
Sonata 1 in C minor, mvt 1.
You can play some etudes, some of the can come in handy (Technique-wise) later while studying the 4th ballade.
Preludes - 24 in D minor, 22 in G minor, 19 in E flat major.
Those are some of the things that come in mind, but I'm not really sure about them. (It really depends on how you play.)

[jorley]

And Beethoven Sonatas?
And how about the Op 44 Polonaise or the Barcarolle?

[prestoconfuocco]

And Beethoven Sonatas?
And how about the Op 44 Polonaise or the Barcarolle?

I wouldn't recommend the barcerolle or the F sharp minor polonaise, they're a bit too much.
I think that the best sonatas for now would be no. 7 (Op. 10 no. 3) in D major, and no. 17 (Op. 31 no. 2) in D minor.
But I'm no expert, you should probably talk to a teacher - he might know better.

[beebert]

If you can play the Ballade Op 23 then all the pieces you have mentioned should be okay; I don't understand really why you are asking. The ballade is in my opinion harder than the F sharp minor Polonaise and the Barcarolle, and talking about a Beethoven sonata, I would say it's about the same difficulty as Les Adieux.

[prestoconfuocco]

If you can play the Ballade Op 23 then all the pieces you have mentioned should be okay; I don't understand really why you are asking. The ballade is in my opinion harder than the F sharp minor Polonaise and the Barcarolle, and talking about a Beethoven sonata, I would say it's about the same difficulty as Les Adieux.

Have you played the first ballade? It has a few very hard parts (The coda mosty, but other parts as well.) but over-all it's not diabolical.
The polonaise, on the other hand, is difficult almost all the way through, and requires a lot of endurance. I have to admit that I'm not that sure about the barcerolle, but it has some technical aspects that you need to be really good at to play well. (Otherwise it's gonna sound terrible.)
And no way in hell it's as difficult as Les Adieux. Not only that it's almost twice as long, It's also much more difficult technically. (Even playing one movement is harder than playing the ballade, so the entire piece?)
Les Adieux is not a sonata for someone who want to build technique, but for someone that already mastered many techniques.
But seriously, I think that the best way for you to go right know is to play another ballade or a scherzo. They're the best preperation there is. (Not to mention amazing as hell.)

[beebert]

Well the Ballade is for sure harder than the Op 31 No 2 by Beethoven, by far. It's about the same difficulty as the 2nd Ballade, the 3rd Scherzo, Rhapsody in Blue and maybe Op 25 No 12 Etude by Chopin(though this one is another kind of difficulty).

Yes I have played the ballade.

[prestoconfuocco]

Well the Ballade is for sure harder than the Op 31 No 2 by Beethoven, by far. It's about the same difficulty as the 2nd Ballade, the 3rd Scherzo, Rhapsody in Blue and maybe Op 25 No 12 Etude by Chopin(though this one is another kind of difficulty).

Yes I have played the ballade.

While I agree that the ballade is harder technically than op. 31 no. 2 (Not by far, but it's definitely harder.), it's much longer, and requires more musical versatility, so it's a good preperation for other large scale works.
The second ballade is a bit harder - the presto sections are from the devil, and the coda makes your fingers fall off. It's also a lot more challenging musically. But the first ballade is about as hard as the third scherzo, maybe a bit less.
I actually think the op. 25 no. 12 etude can be one of the easier etudes for some people - it depends on what techinques you're good at. I found it relatively easy, and found otheres that are considered easy harder. (In example - op. 10 no. 3)
But this etude can be pretty handy when learning the fourth ballade, it helps out in a few short passages.

[beebert]

Still think you att underestimating the 1st ballade. The coda of the 1st is hell and definately miles harder Than anything in Op 31 No2. In my opinion , Coda of the 1st is gardet than everything in the 2nd ballade and the 3rd Scherzo. Les Adieux
Is harder than the ballade as a whole, but not by much; the 1st ballade is closer to Les Adieux in difficulty than to Op 31 No 2.

[prestoconfuocco]

Still think you att underestimating the 1st ballade. The coda of the 1st is hell and definately miles harder Than anything in Op 31 No2. In my opinion , Coda of the 1st is gardet than everything in the 2nd ballade and the 3rd Scherzo. Les Adieux
Is harder than the ballade as a whole, but not by much; the 1st ballade is closer to Les Adieux in difficulty than to Op 31 No 2.

The second scherzo is easier than the first ballade, but:
- It's closer to the ballade than Les Adieux.
- It really helps out in building technique.
- It helps a piano player get familiar with Chopin's work (Better than his short works.) which can help later when playing the ballades.
The second ballade is very underrated - playing it well is a task that even professionals can find challenging. It's much easier making the first ballade sound good than making the second one sound good. Also, it shares a lot of musical aspect with the fourth ballade, so it's a good idea to learn it if you're interested in playing the fourth.
Same about the third scherzo - it's difficult to preform well. (Though technically it's very controversial - some find it easy and some hard.)

[beebert]

Sorry, I meant Beethoven's Op 31 No 2 ;P The ballade is closer to Les Adieux than to the Tempest Sonata, that's what I meant:) I agree about the Scherzo.

[prestoconfuocco]

Sorry, I meant Beethoven's Op 31 No 2 ;P The ballade is closer to Les Adieux than to the Tempest Sonata, that's what I meant:) I agree about the Scherzo.

Haha, what are the odds?
Anyway, I disagree - if you take the entire sonata in account (In both cases) the D minor is closer.
Don't get me wrong, the D minor sonata IS easier, but it's long, and takes time and effort to master, so it would be a good choice to take after the ballade. (I think that when you play a Beethoven sonata you need to take a sonata that is a bit below your level, so you can work on various movements at the same time, but that's just me.)
But anyway, if someone wants to play a Chopin ballade, playing beethoven is not such a great idea, sticking with Chopin would be wiser.

[blazekenny]

Guys, you both sound like you should stick with Clementi´s sonatinas and Heller´s etudes, considering you only take technical difficulty and length into account, sometimes mentioning "musicality". For example, the barcarolle contains more philosophy than all the ballades combined and is probably one of the hardest Chopin works. Also, the number of breathtaking performances of the d minor beethoven sonata can be counted on fingers of one hand.
---
And by the way, the f# minor polonaise is one of the easier choices to start a bigger Chopin piece.
Obviously, the big difficulty is that it is repetitive and you must play the repeating sections each time a little different to make it interesting. But thats always the case in Chopin.

[prestoconfuocco]

Guys, you both sound like you should stick with Clementi´s sonatinas and Heller´s etudes, considering you only take technical difficulty and length into account, sometimes mentioning "musicality". For example, the barcarolle contains more philosophy than all the ballades combined and is probably one of the hardest Chopin works. Also, the number of breathtaking performances of the d minor beethoven sonata can be counted on fingers of one hand.
---
And by the way, the f# minor polonaise is one of the easier choices to start a bigger Chopin piece.
Obviously, the big difficulty is that it is repetitive and you must play the repeating sections each time a little different to make it interesting. But thats always the case in Chopin.

It's just too complicated taking the complexed musical aspects into account when referring someone to a piece.
When I suggest someone a piece like a Chopin ballade, I just assume that he knows what he's getting himself into. The ability to handle musical challenges while playing the piano varies from person to person, and we can't know how well one does it.
So while we do take aspects that don't relate to technique or endurance in mind, we try not to emphasize them too much when deciding on a piece. (But as you can see, I did state about some pieces that they are difficult to play well, not only technically.)
Although, I don't agree with what you said about sonata 17 - it's one of the pieces that sound great in almost every preformance, in my opinion.
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I personally find the polonaise very difficult - first of all technically, secondly because of al the repetitions (Like you said), and thirdly (And maybe most important of all) - it's very difficult to make this piece sound Polish enough, and majestic, and proud. Most people just make it sound too tragic, and it loses every other aspect of the piece, and I almost forget it's a polonaise.

[blazekenny]

It's just too complicated taking the complexed musical aspects into account when referring someone to a piece.
When I suggest someone a piece like a Chopin ballade, I just assume that he knows what he's getting himself into. The ability to handle musical challenges while playing the piano varies from person to person, and we can't know how well one does it.
So while we do take aspects that don't relate to technique or endurance in mind, we try not to emphasize them too much when deciding on a piece. (But as you can see, I did state about some pieces that they are difficult to play well, not only technically.)
Although, I don't agree with what you said about sonata 17 - it's one of the pieces that sound great in almost every preformance, in my opinion.
----
I personally find the polonaise very difficult - first of all technically, secondly because of al the repetitions (Like you said), and thirdly (And maybe most important of all) - it's very difficult to make this piece sound Polish enough, and majestic, and proud. Most people just make it sound too tragic, and it loses every other aspect of the piece, and I almost forget it's a polonaise.

Well, big problem with all the Beethoven sonatas is that nowadays nobody bleeds at the piano while playing them. Beethoven always needs that extreme focus on every note and big passion. In the specific sonata, the biggest problem is boring recitatives. Other problems are disgusting sound in the big fortes, or too fast tempo in the finale for example. Its one of my life pieces I will never completely finish, because it is so genial....
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PS: I completely agree with you on the polonaise though - My teacher always says that dance forms are the most difficult pieces by Chopin, even a single mazurka can take as much work as one scherzo apparently. I thought its nonsense, but if you look at about any pianist younger than 40, they dont yet have the natural experience to balance the dance rhythm and Chopin lyricism to make it not sound boring

[chopianologue]

Somebody need to understand better Ballade op.23.
If you melt both technical and musical aspects of op.23, you'll see it's one of the hardest pieces of Chopin. Complaining about it's ''easiness'' is showing your musiquality, sorry.

[chopin2015]

I really think the 1st ballade is a bit harder, technically. But the 4th has very intense musical moments.
I've learnt all 4, now.