Kissin Technique and 'hand type'

[hardy_practice]

You have to aim right through that point

Yes.  Aim being the operative word here - for which you need a target!  Anyway, you are confusing the subjective experience of punching with the actual physiology - two very different things.  

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes.  Aim being the operative word here - for which you need a target!  Anyway, you are confusing the subjective experience of punching with the actual physiology - two very different things.  

please elaborate. You can't just assert that to be fact without a shred of explanation. The objective fact is that immobilising something and then colliding it into something else causes impact. Even a trace of movement provides a run-off, so momentum can go into something other than a dead stop. So what possible reason is there to believe that when perceiving it precisely in line with these objective mechanical facts, it's merely a subjective experience? They match perfectly. The subjective experience is when people who have good instincts, yet are incapable of describing what they really do, can only call it firming or bracing or other such ambiguous and misleading words. Sadly, for 99 percent of people who take that advice at face value, the literal interpretation of this clumsy and flawed description leads to the jarring impact that would logically be expected to result from literal use of tension to immobilise joints. The success stories simply don't really do that. Even in Kissin's case (where the use of the body is often imperfect for loud chords) the moments of genuine fixation through key depression are at least the exceptions and not the rules. You don't reach that level if you do most of your playing by bracing joints and banging them against the keys. You particularly don't reach that level if you make no effort to learn how to pass on energy without the needless act of tightening up the wrist (due to operating under the false pretence that relaxation after an impact can go back in time and cure the ill effects of that impact).

[hardy_practice]

I believe the fact that an aim requires a target is a syllogism - no explanation required.

Even in Kissin's case (where the use of the body is often imperfect for loud chords)  

Once again, this is not fact.  You build up your straw man of Kissin and with great aplomb knock him down!  It is IYHO and from what I've seen of Kissin completely untrue.

On rigidity, as you well know, it's not as simple as on/off - rigidity involves levels of muscular tension.  Hold your arm out palm up - little muscle tension is required to keep your palm rigid.  Place a tangerine on your palm and more tension is required to keep the shape rigid.  Add another tangerine and even more, etc..  

[nyiregyhazi]

I believe the fact that an aim requires a target is a syllogism - no explanation required.
Once again, this is not fact.  You build huup your straw man of Kissin and with great aplomb knock him down!  It is IYHO and from what I've seen of Kissin completely untrue.

On rigidity, as you well know, it's not as simple as on/off - rigidity involves levels of muscular tension.  Hold your arm out palm up - little muscle tension is required to keep your palm rigid.  Place a tangerine on your palm and more tension is required to keep the shape rigid.  Add another tangerine and even more, etc..  

I wasn't referring to the altogether self evident statement about a target. I have not the slightest idea why that would ever have been in dispute, or what it was supposed to bring to the table.

If you seriously hold tangerines by consciously making your hand tense and rigid, then you're just clowning around again. To not get deformed by a loud chord, a hand must be extraordinarily tense, if using this limited approach. forces are equivalent to many kgs, not tangerines. Halfway house and you'll just give way. If someone drops even 1kg into your hand, even the most stiffly prepped arm gives way a little, despite the great exertion.only the arm which is moving up slightly before the force begins can avoid going down by so much as even a mm. This is why good pianists eradicate this  possibility without effort by the sheer simplicity of merely moving in the opposite direction and not by straining to fix into a rigid position (or even one which is sort of kind of rigid but in some kind of nice rather than bad way). Rigidity doesn't even enter it. The two solutions are totally different (above all in the ease and quality of the result) yet you insist on seeing it as if the concept of fixation is the lone possibility.Speaking of "tension" is a poor way of inspiring the superior result and will rarely lead to anything other than high effort fixation- that still permits a notable degree of collapse.

PS You're not even being consistent with yourself. If kissin uses the method you propose, then he is using tension instead of movement to pass on energy by the very definition you set out. If he doesn't use your stiffening method (which cannot even take a single kg of mass without partially giving way, even when horribly rigid) then what? You can't very well insist that this bracing idea is the method by which good pianists play yet then have a go at me for accusing Kissin of using it.

[hardy_practice]

You have to aim right through that point

This is why I bring 'targets' to the table.  It doesn't matter whether the target is on the surface of the face or at the back of the head - when a boxer punches he is fixating (both mentally and physically) in either case.  Your point is irrelevant - aiming through is still aiming at.

If you seriously hold tangerines by consciously making your hand tense and rigid, then you're just clowning around again.

And again you get personal?  If you think you can consciously operate your wrist either when holding tangerines or during the microsecond adjustments during key descent then you are in trouble. 

[dima_76557]

@ All

Piano playing and martial arts cannot be compared, and the comparison should better be avoided in this discussion.

You never hit the key surface with force and neither do you collapse on the keybed or strike against it. Even if you make a swinging motion into the key, you land comparatively softly on the keys and you take the key down with you; no conflicts at key surface level. The energy of that swinging movement should dissipate on the keybed, and there is no forceful impact ever anywhere. If in doubt, ask Cyprien Katsaris. He is on YouTube with 2 user accounts.

Also, there is never complete "relaxation" at the piano, and neither should there be raw physical force and joint locking as in boxing or Karate. It's rather a cat-like flexibility, ever ready for action that takes no real physical power, only kinetic energy. Locking joints deliberately while playing the piano is utterly stupid. If you want a really forceful fortissimo, use the key surface as a trampoline (as if jumping up) and see how loud and rich that sounds. Never hit the keys, please! In Russian, we have very beautiful expressions for piano playing. We draw the tone out of the instrument, but we never strike keys violently. We aim at the point of sound.

[nyiregyhazi]

So, hardy, you're seriously suggesting that a conscious intent to successfully hold a mere tangerine by "fixing" the wrist is not going to have any consequences? You should not be allowed to post advice on this board if you seriously take such a view. You cannot cannot even offer sound advice on the technique of holding a tangerine, never mind on playing difficult repertoire without risk of causing yourself serious injury.

Try dropping a mere half kilogram weight onto a hand with a locked up wrist. My mobile phone knocks my hand into a good 5mm or so of displacement. Producing a FFF will create vastly more force. In both cases I have the full option to prevent the ridiculous idea of intending to fixate my wrist by moving it in the useful direction. I begin to angle my hand up split seconds in advance, so the phone cannot knock it down when it lands. Movement prevents it outright with no locking of the wrist. This is really not complex. A moving wrist is not locked by definition. You can repeat the option of stiffening all you like, but it won't do anything to nullify the superior result of moving appropriately. Ignoring one option and repeating the lone one you have managed to experience as an individual does not make the other go away. Fixation is not needed in any respect unless you haven't learned the appropriate movements to avoid it. You can dig your own grave if you wish, but you shouldn't be allowed to post such genuinely damaging advice to anyone who takes their pianism and physical health seriously.

PS aiming at introduces desire to stop and therefore braking via muscular contractions, that compromise energy transfer. Don't ever try becoming a golf coach with an attitude like that. Don't even try crazy golf, as you'll simply snatch at the ball.

[hardy_practice]

So, hardy, you're seriously suggesting that a conscious intent to successfully hold a mere tangerine by "fixing" the wrist is not going to have any consequences?

So, once again you set up a straw man.  Where does the 'intent' in your sentence come from?  Not me.

Nice one Dima.

[nyiregyhazi]

So, once again you set up a straw man.  Where does the 'intent' in your sentence come from?  Not me.

Nice one Dima.

The intent arises in the instant when someone such as yourself okays fixation by claiming it happens. it doesn't. when I hold a tangerine I balance it.anyone trying to move my wrist will find it was balanced and not fixed.it can freely be moved. Balance and fixation are not the same thing. Call a balance a fixation and you totally mislead others. Its also a different situation as nothing is being moved, as when playing a chord.

At the piano virtually everyone tries to fix unless told otherwise.the challenge is to actively eradicate any desire to immobilise and to replace it with desire to move in the useful direction. The last thing anyone needs to hear is a fallacious claim that it can only be accomplished by locking. Its already hard enough for most people to get out of this limiting belief without people trying to sanction the error.

[hardy_practice]

I hate to disillusion you but there's no 'okays fixation' when I hold a tangerine - there's only holding a tangerine. 

[nyiregyhazi]

I hate to disillusion you but there's no 'okays fixation' when I hold a tangerine - there's only holding a tangerine.  

Perhaps you should also describe it that way then? Reread how you described it. You said it is held rigid.that is not a state of sensitive balance.its an endorsement of fixation.Regardless, loud chords are the issue.you not onky sanctioned fixation but denied possibility of alternatives.

[hardy_practice]

Perhaps you should also describe it that way then? Reread how you describes it. Regardless, loud chords are the issue.you sanctioned fixation.

Again, you confuse what I do with my subjective experience of doing.

[nyiregyhazi]

Again, you confuse what I do with my subjective experience of doing.

If your subjective experience of holding a tangerine is of rigidity, you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical that the objective reality is of a sensitively poised balance.there's a good reason why they don't typically tell those studying yoga to picture their body as being rigid, rather than in balance.

[hardy_practice]

If your subjective experience of holding a tangerine is of rigidity, you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical that the objective reality is of a sensitively poised balance.there's a good reason why they don't typically tell those studying yoga to picture their body as being rigid, rather than in balance.

Subjective experience can be anything you wish it to be - in your case, presumably, the tangerine hangs in the air.

[nyiregyhazi]

Subjective experience can be anything you wish it to be - in your case, presumably, the tangerine hangs in the air.

No. When I carry a weight I try to perceive its weight and the action that cancels it without any unnecessary fixation ie. Balance not rigidity.Its very helpful for weight training with dumbbells.as a pianist, you can kill your sensitivity if you use a tight locked grip.likewise in standing. anyone who thinks they have to take a subjective picture of locking their knees to walk is headed for serious problems. A picture of excessive effort does not lead to an objective refinement of actions.

Subjectivity does not mean all viewpoints can work.you might as well argue that thinking about death and famine all day is as likely to promote long term happiness as thinking pleasant thoughts, seeing as its subjective.thinking of rigidity objectively leads to it.

[hardy_practice]

Can't just hold a tangerine then?  Sherlock Holmes would be proud!

[nyiregyhazi]

Can't just hold a tangerine then?  Sherlock Holmes would be proud!

This is a discussion, not a playground. It no more follows that I can't just hold a tangerine than that you can't. The only difference is that IF I do so consciously, I strive for a simple balance of force that could easily be tipped either way. This is exactly what feldenkrais exercises entail, minus the tangerine.Whereas you stated your wrist would be rigid. That's one hell of an interesting viewpoint for supporting such a tiny mass.

[hardy_practice]

Whereas you stated your wrist would be rigid. That's one hell of an interesting viewpoint for supporting such a tiny mass.

You've obviously not read the post very well.  Yes, rigid enough to prevent the palm tipping and tangerine(s) from falling - and no more.

[nyiregyhazi]

You've obviously not read the post very well.  Yes, rigid enough to prevent the palm tipping and tangerine(s) from falling - and no more.

Fine in balance, if you indeed perceive the tipping point (although it conflicts with an accurate definition of the word rigid).  The problem is when you carry the same attitude to moving something ie moving piano keys. Please don't even try swinging a golf club with wrists that are rigid enough to be immobile.

[hardy_practice]

I see, I'd better stick to tangerines.

[lelle]

This feels like deja vu from the keyboardclass days 

[awesom_o]

hardly_practice..... How is it going, my old friend?

Have you become a virtuoso yet? How is your improvisation?

Improvisation is the only route to a truly Lisztian technique....

[hardy_practice]

Improvisation is the only route to a truly Lisztian technique....

That's interesting that.  I'm not into Liszt at all - I think his technique was quite square compared to Chopin.  But you're quite correct.  I  know a student who's fab on Liszt and impros all over the place - not my thing either.

You're wasting your talent with all this posting - 578 posts in 6 months? You could be practising.

[awesom_o]

 I'm not into Liszt at all - I think his technique was quite square compared to Chopin.

I was a bit like that for a long time myself.... but then I discovered the Beethoven Symphony Transcriptions.

Playing them made me realize what Liszt was all about.  His technique and Chopin's were extremely similar.

Their musical imaginations were very different. Both could improvise crazy counterpoint, and there is a certain kind of technique that that requires.

[hardy_practice]

Playing them made me realize what Liszt was all about.  His technique and Chopin's were extremely similar.

I see their techniques as chalk and cheese - this was Chopin's https://www.djupdal.org/karstein/debussy/method/m09.shtml from the Bach - Mozart line (they were clear on harpsichord and clavichord having different touches).  Liszt on the other hand is from the Clementi - Beethoven line (playing from the knuckle - harpsichord technique).

Anyway, I can't face Beethoven - too many gratuitous arpeggios all for effect!  That came from Clementi.  As for improvising, I suppose I'd want to do it atonally.

[nyiregyhazi]

This feels like deja vu from the keyboardclass days 

Yep.that's exactly who he is.

[awesom_o]

I see their techniques as chalk and cheese

That's weird..... I find their technique to be extraordinarily similar.  I had to play a vast quantity of their music to arrive at that understanding, however.

I used to think more along the lines of 'Liszt for show, Chopin for the go'.... but after reading about Liszt and how he played, I realized Liszt never was for show. He was all about the go.

Chopin preferred composing absolute music and Liszt preferred to compose programmatic music.  But both men had the technique to make the piano sing in a most particular way.


So, you don't like Beethoven because you think his music is bad? Or because you can't face his technical demands?

I first began to study improvisation with a professor who taught using 'atonal' curriculum. As I got better, I became less and less limited in terms of what I could say at the keyboard.

https://vimeo.com/74077435

You should have a look at my piece. It's partly didactic in nature..... extremely technically challenging despite sounding simple.

It should give you a better understanding of the link between Liszt's technique and Chopin's.
I can email you the score if you give me an address.

[hardy_practice]

https://vimeo.com/74077435

I'm listening - are you back in TO?  

I'm not crazy about music that requires loads of pedal.  Still, give us a copy and I'd love to give it a go.

[awesom_o]

Yes, I teach the musical arts here in the GTA!