Sight Reading tips please :(

[nyiregyhazi]

The point is that you, sir, have made yourself a self-appointed authority, per this website ("what would happen to this forum if ...").  This is not your forum or your website!

I, sir, am an empiricist by philosophy, who will, with one rare exception, not participate in your diatribe.

For those adults out there who have sight reading problems as it relates to learning the notes for a desired repertoire, please contact me, outside this post.  And, I will be glad to offer anything that might help.

if you want to help put it in the open for everyone to see and discuss. I didn't declare any authority. I pointed out what a crappy board it would become if all the replies said "I know the answer but I'm not divulging it". What are you so cagey about?

[dima_76557]

I agree with everything you write, except it is not multi-tasking. Playing an instrument is a singular, linear task.

OK, maybe my word choice was incorrect.

At least I'd like to state this: sightreading is a rather complex skill actually (in the sense that it has more than one component), and it is often introduced too early in traditional musical education. It doesn't make sense to even try it before you have achieved really good fluency in all the elements indicated in my previous post. If not, then the result will inevitably be a tense body and conditioned fear, uncertainty, and doubt towards a skill that is fun to do as soon as you are really ready for it.

[timothy42b]

It's that "simple", yes. Maybe it's time for a sticky post about this subject?

Ultimately, it's multi-tasking with the following components:
1) Good decoding skills (you can develop those on the sofa, including the counting part). Pattern recognition is crucial, so you don't have to process all elements deliberately.
2) Perfect independence of the hands and an ability to move without the brain interfering, a.k.a. "technique";
3) An excellent feel for the topography of your instrument (also part of "technique"), so you can use your eyes for reading only.

I agree with that but think you need to add
4), retrieval from the memory banks.

I think a hugely underestimated part of sight reading involves retrieval of thoroughly learned patterns in the style of the music you're playing.  For this reason, practicing sight reading a large amount of new material does not always help overall sightreading, though it may improve the 3 elements you mentioned above.  Improving 4) requires actually learning pieces (or fragments) very very well, which does not happen when you just read through new material.  And unfortunately it does not transfer easily between styles or genres of music. 

[dima_76557]

I agree with that but think you need to add
4), retrieval from the memory banks.

I think a hugely underestimated part of sight reading involves retrieval of thoroughly learned patterns in the style of the music you're playing.  For this reason, practicing sight reading a large amount of new material does not always help overall sightreading, though it may improve the 3 elements you mentioned above.  Improving 4) requires actually learning pieces (or fragments) very very well, which does not happen when you just read through new material.  And unfortunately it does not transfer easily between styles or genres of music.  

You are definitely right. This is excellent for working memory. Since I went through "Liszt's Technical Exercises" (all his tricks are in there in all keys), I can sightread the works that use that type of formulas much better, but something that is not in my "vocabulary" (modern composers, Jazz transcriptions, for example) still causes inconvenience sometimes, even after extensive analysis. For Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, etc. I have found lots of Czerny and Clementi to be very useful as sightreading material, not to train the fingers, but to develop a feel for the formulas, the idiom they use. To make it really useful, though, one should transpose it all into other keys at random.

[j_menz]

You are definitely right. This is excellent for working memory. Since I went through "Liszt's Technical Exercises" (all his tricks are in there in all keys), I can sightread the works that use that type of formulas much better, but something that is not in my "vocabulary" (modern composers, Jazz transcriptions, for example) still causes inconvenience sometimes, even after extensive analysis. For Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, etc. I have found lots of Czerny and Clementi to be very useful as sightreading material, not to train the fingers, but to develop a feel for the formulas, the idiom they use. To make it really useful, though, one should transpose it all into other keys at random.

Not to disagree, but the object is not to learn every possible key/note combination of a particular pattern or figure, but rather to learn a generalised version of it, into which an actual array of notes fits, and which encompasses some variation on the figure itself. Once you have done that, drilling further examples is no longer necessary.

[dima_76557]

Not to disagree, but the object is not to learn every possible key/note combination of a particular pattern or figure, but rather to learn a generalised version of it, into which an actual array of notes fits, and which encompasses some variation on the figure itself. Once you have done that, drilling further examples is no longer necessary.

I know. It's just "ostinatos" - the "riffs" (fragments containg chord progressions) and "licks" (fragments that contain only melodic elements) approach from the jazz world I am after to be able to improvise freely in a classical fashion. This requires transposing too of stuff you particularly like in a certain style.

[vincentbiasa]

It's that "simple", yes. Maybe it's time for a sticky post about this subject?

Ultimately, it's multi-tasking with the following components:
1) Good decoding skills (you can develop those on the sofa, including the counting part). Pattern recognition is crucial, so you don't have to process all elements deliberately.
2) Perfect independence of the hands and an ability to move without the brain interfering, a.k.a. "technique";
3) An excellent feel for the topography of your instrument (also part of "technique"), so you can use your eyes for reading only.

Nice tips! And about the techniques, what techniques we need to develop to help us sight read? About the counting, i had hard time to count and play together. When i lost my count, i'm also lost my concentration to read. Any tips for that?

[dima_76557]

Nice tips! And about the techniques, what techniques we need to develop to help us sight read? About the counting, i had hard time to count and play together. When i lost my count, i'm also lost my concentration to read. Any tips for that?

No, I don't have any tips really. I think it is different with different people.

I am not good with numbers and counting in general. I did lots of rhythmic pattern recognition away from the instrument and simply remember/recall the "sound" of those patterns (how does 4 on the beat sound/feel motorically? How does 7 on the beat sound/feel motorically? etc). Then I gradually combine the sound of left and right while feeling the general pulse of both like a kind of biological metronome. The moment I start counting, I become too self-conscious and immediately spoil the execution.

P.S.: My left hand leads, always.

[j_menz]

About the counting, i had hard time to count and play together. When i lost my count, i'm also lost my concentration to read. Any tips for that?

Try counting music you aren't playing. And also try tapping along to it.  The idea is not to develop a mere internal metronome, but to "get rhythm". Then you can play the beat, not just count the beat and play along with the count.

[dima_76557]

Try counting music you aren't playing. And also try tapping along to it.  The idea is not to develop a mere internal metronome, but to "get rhythm". Then you can play the beat, not just count the beat and play along with the count.

Crucial is, I think, WORKING MEMORY of retrievable patterns, the element timothy42b added. Actually, you read ahead and temporarily "memorize" what you saw, and then execute, but you have to keep reading ahead, so the body has to act independently from the mind. The more you recognize and are able to execute on auto-pilot, the more likely you are to go through the experience successfully.

[vincentbiasa]

Crucial is, I think, WORKING MEMORY of retrievable patters, the element timothy42b added. Actually, you read ahead and temporarily "memorize" what you saw, and then execute, but you have to keep reading ahead, so the body has to act independently from the mind. The more you recognize and are able to execute on auto-pilot, the more likely you are to go through the experience successfully.

And all end with rhythm practicing again... I wish i have a teacher to teach me about rhythm Okay, i'm now, will try to find a some easy music sheets, try to count (and to memorize) the rhythm.. Is this kind of practicing effective to improve my rhythm? Or there is another way that more effective?

[dima_76557]

And all end with rhythm practicing again... I wish i have a teacher to teach me about rhythm Okay, i'm now, will try to find a some easy music sheets, try to count (and to memorize) the rhythm.. Is this kind of practicing effective to improve my rhythm? Or there is another way that more effective?

I can only say what i did. This does not mean that that is exactly what you have to do. All skills I acquired were acquired through non-standard training, because I was never what you call a child prodigy. Rather a "struggler". What works for others never works for me.

You may like this page:
https://trainer.thetamusic.com/en/content/rhythm-patterns
Scroll a bit down. There is an application there (Rhythm Pattern Demo) that will play short two-beat rhythm patterns for you. Press "play" for as long as you need to recognize and remember the pattern and then click "next" and a new pattern will appear. Try to predict what it should sound like and then check by clicking "Play".
P.S.: There are probably more of that kind of resources. Just do a Google search for "rhythm pattern training online". There are also books for sale with such patterns you have to count and tap (solfeggio), but it is not very pleasant to work with those.

EDIT: You may also want to watch this, not because it is so artistically beautiful (it sure isn't), but because it can give you some ideas about what can be done without actually counting:

[vincentbiasa]

I can only say what i did. This does not mean that that is exactly what you have to do. All skills I acquired were acquired through non-standard training, because I was never what you call a child prodigy. Rather a "struggler". What works for others never works for me.

Yeah, i know that feel bro. Thanks for the video and the link, it help me a lot I have got all the information i needed. Now it's time to start serious practice I hope i be able to sight read almost every easy songs out there in 1 year from now. Good luck for me and thanks for all who had gave me tips

[pianoplunker]

And all end with rhythm practicing again... I wish i have a teacher to teach me about rhythm Okay, i'm now, will try to find a some easy music sheets, try to count (and to memorize) the rhythm.. Is this kind of practicing effective to improve my rhythm? Or there is another way that more effective?

If you can have a chance to play music with another person such as in a duet, or playing piano along with a recording it will improve your rhythm immensely. As a beginner you really do need to count to understand how the different quarter notes, eighth notes, triplets ,  all create the rhythm of the music.   The way you count has something to do with it too. For example a quarter note counts 1, 2 ,3 ,4  but a 16th note counts like 1 e and a , 2 e and a. I still count sometimes when trying to figure out something but mostly "feel " it but that is because I have played many years of days playing with others in bands or playing along with a recording. It could be that you are just not ready to take on sight reading right now. You do have to know how the rhythm goes. Like I said before, wrong notes are not a big problem but losing the rhythm ruins everything very quickly. All that said I am not a great sight reader, I keep wanting to work things out and practice. To practice sight reading, start with just reading only, dont try to play unless you understand how it all is supposed to fit together. It wont get you anywhere if you cant simply look at it and "see" how it will work. Take your very first entry level music book and see if you can practice sight reading that. Whatever you do, dont feel bad, sight reading is a skill that some do well and some dont. The only reason I ever practice sight reading is because it helps me learn pieces quicker when I PRACTICE them. PRACTICE sight reading, you can get better at it   

[theodore]

Dima: Sight Reading

3) An excellent feel for the topography of your instrument (also part of "technique"), so you can use your eyes for reading only.

How can one learn the topography of the keyboard ?  Is it done by practicing skips of octaves ? Or is it done by other methods and drills ?

[vincentbiasa]

Take your very first entry level music book and see if you can practice sight reading that. Whatever you do, dont feel bad, sight reading is a skill that some do well and some dont. The only reason I ever practice sight reading is because it helps me learn pieces quicker when I PRACTICE them. PRACTICE sight reading, you can get better at it   

Yeah, i have same reason. I'm starting sight reading because i wanted to play a piece of song without practicing for a long of period of time. I'm also wanted to play every piece that someone gave me right away. By the way, thanks for the advice sir    

[momopi]

1) Play something easier than your level.
2) Buy lots of books with pieces like that or download simplified pieces. www.8notes.com is a great resource.
3) Analyze first, look for certain patterns, check for accidentals.
4) Play slowly.
5) Practice a lot for fun.

[twilexia]

To OP: if you want to sight read really fast, learn to write music.  Nothing increases your ability read notes faster than if you understand them from the composer's point of view - why they write melodic or harmonic passages in the way, what their intent was, and perhaps why they made the musical decisions while writing. 

Most composers don't intentionally write their music so that it's difficult to sightread (note that this is different than being difficult to play).  So instead of viewing music as a textbook or some kind of exercise, view it as what it is - a work of art.  If you understand a piece artistically, sightreading becomes much easier. 

[awesom_o]

To OP: if you want to sight read really fast, learn to write music.  Nothing increases your ability read notes faster than if you understand them from the composer's point of view - why they write melodic or harmonic passages in the way, what their intent was, and perhaps why they made the musical decisions while writing. 

Most composers don't intentionally write their music so that it's difficult to sightread (note that this is different than being difficult to play).  So instead of viewing music as a textbook or some kind of exercise, view it as what it is - a work of art.  If you understand a piece artistically, sightreading becomes much easier. 

Brilliant post! Thank you, twilexia!

[twilexia]

Glad you found it useful there's so much resources out there, anyone can easily learn to compose these days.

[awesom_o]

I didn't say I found it useful.

I said 'Brilliant post! Thank you'



If you are a composer, please post some of your works in the audition room!
We love new composers.

[pianoplunker]

To OP: if you want to sight read really fast, learn to write music.  Nothing increases your ability read notes faster than if you understand them from the composer's point of view - why they write melodic or harmonic passages in the way, what their intent was, and perhaps why they made the musical decisions while writing. 

Most composers don't intentionally write their music so that it's difficult to sightread (note that this is different than being difficult to play).  So instead of viewing music as a textbook or some kind of exercise, view it as what it is - a work of art.  If you understand a piece artistically, sightreading becomes much easier. 

You have an interesting point, it certainly wont hurt to learn how to write. But I dont think learning to write or compose will make a faster path to sight reading. As one learns to write or compose , there will be alot more knowledge gained which might help with sight reading but the sight reading itself is a different skill with a different approach.  Also , writing is a skill within itself. Composing uses writing, but is not writing. One of my teachers suggested I write all the scales just to practice "writing".  So if I did decide to compose I would be able to write it. But then came midi notation software so I have not written anything for a few decades now. I still actively practice sight reading though.