What takes more time to master welltempered clavier or chopin etudes?

[musicioso]

I mean not the entire pieces, but for developing the technique for those pieces.

[j_menz]

Beethoven, if his teacher is to be believed, had mastered the WTC by age 11. He never mastered the Chopin Etudes, though his excuse seems reasonable.

[hfmadopter]

I mean not the entire pieces, but for developing the technique for those pieces.

I've thought that mastering Chopin in general, never mind the etudes, is rather an oxymoron. There are so many flavors of expression, when can you really consider it ( a given piece) mastered ? At least with Bach there is a tangible pathway, it may be twisted and mess with your head as it does mine but it's written there in front of you. He left some head room for expression but it's different than Chopin. With Bach it's more about the accents and offset voicing/multi voicing. With Chopin you have to color the musical expression and bring up a sense of warmth in yourself and hopefully your listeners.

Horowitz said to be great at Chopin you have to play Mozart and I believe he said to play Mozart you have to play as if it were Chopin. He didn't mention Bach in this little statement. Bach, again, is different. I always thought if one has a high mechanical aptitude and mathematical aptitude they should be able to figure Bach out fairly well. With Chopin it's more about emotion and that comes after you get done with the Jungle Gym of notes he presents. To become a master at that is something perhaps that may end up way down the road. The word "master" has a lot of meaning.

[prestoconfuocco]

Beethoven, if his teacher is to be believed, had mastered the WTC by age 11. He never mastered the Chopin Etudes, though his excuse seems reasonable.

der is no excuse for bethoven he waz just a lousy pianist dat cant even master etudes hahaha lol
(Excuse me, a typical youtube commenter coming through.)

[awesom_o]

It's funny you say that though.... because there was some doubts regarding Beethoven's ability as a 'concert pianist' from the very beginning.

As an improviser, he was unsurpassed. His concert performances of written-out music were known to contain audible mistakes. He was thrilling to hear at all times.... but he was certainly not known for his 'polish'

He didn't spend time trying to 'perfect' his interpretations. He had such a powerful technique and sight-reading ability, and obviously the musicianship to juggle both of those things, that he didn't see practicing a piece over and over again as being a good use of his time.

This leads us to the question....what is mastery? Does it mean 'able to give a performance by memory without slips or stumbles '?

[prestoconfuocco]

There are plenty of composers that weren't such good players. (Some of them couldn't even play the pieces they composed, so you have to give Beethoven some credit)
But that doesn't even matter because as much as playing Beethoven's 32 sonatas is awesome, COMPOSING them is epic as hell

[j_menz]

This leads us to the question....what is mastery? Does it mean 'able to give a performance by memory without slips or stumbles '?

Able to give a performance where nobody cares about the slips or stumbles.

[musicioso]

Hi guys

Thank you very much for your replies. By mastering a piece i meant to be able to play it without slips and stubles, indeed.

[j_menz]

without slips and stubles, indeed.