interesting article on technique

[dima_76557]

I don't think you get the meaning of drill.  There's hardly a pianist known to us today that wasn't and isn't drilled.  In this modern piano world it's a necessity.

I probably don't understand what you mean then. We seem to be talking on different levels. Please explain.

[hardy_practice]

I probably don't understand what you mean then. We seem to be talking on different levels. Please explain.

training by repetition: a type of military training, particularly in marching maneuvers and weapons handling, that involves the constant repetition of a set pattern of movements or tasks

[dima_76557]

training by repetition: a type of military training, particularly in marching maneuvers and weapons handling, that involves the constant repetition of a set pattern of movements or tasks

That is a grave misunderstanding on your part of how good "schools" prepare their students, I'm sorry. While I acknowledge that that kind of training happens in some parts of the world, EVERY element in the Russian training has musical meaning, NOTHING is done mechanically. Touch, touch, touch + intonatsia. As "Chopin" as it can ever get.

[hardy_practice]

That is a grave misunderstanding on your part of how good "schools" prepare their students, I'm sorry. While I acknowledge that that kind of training happens in some parts of the world, EVERY element in the Russian training has musical meaning, NOTHING is done mechanically. Touch, touch, touch + intonatsia. As "Chopin" as it can ever get.

Where does it say mechanically?

[dima_76557]

Where does it say mechanically?

You imply it. Or do you want to say that Bach, Mozart and Chopin never repeated anything?

[hardy_practice]

You imply it. Or do you want to say that Bach, Mozart and Chopin never repeated anything?

Do I?  Some misunderstanding then.  Drill can be mindless but shouldn't be.  I think maybe Clementi brought it into piano study but maybe it was Czerny - still researching that one.

[dima_76557]

Do I?  Some misunderstanding then.  Drill can be mindless but shouldn't be.  I think maybe Clementi brought it into piano study but maybe it was Czerny - still researching that one.

In that case, it is unclear to me what you are agitating against. How do you think Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin were trained? Through tears and all until they could do what was required, no doubt about that in my mind.

[hardy_practice]

In that case, it is unclear to me what you are agitating against. How do you think Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin were trained? Through tears and all until they could do what was required, no doubt about that in my mind.

Tears in Beethoven's case yes, he was abused.  The others no.  Agitating?  I'm only pointing out that Liszt was far better drilled than Chopin as Clementi was than Mozart.  Their styles of composition/performance reflect this.  Ya pays yer money and takes yer choice!

[dima_76557]

Tears in Beethoven's case yes, he was abused.  The others no.  Agitating?  I'm only pointing out that Liszt was far better drilled than Chopin as Clementi was than Mozart.  Their styles of composition/performance reflect this.  Ya pays yer money and takes yer choice!

You seem to read sources very selectively. Let's take Mozart:
Mozart's 'missing link' revealed. I am not going to cite here what you are not supposed to miss. Mozart was obsessed with showing off tricks nobody else could do, and admitted that he worked very hard and very long to be able to do it.

I would have to dig deep to find sources for Bach's training, but his preludes in the WTC are of an unheard of virtuosity. He must have been a maniac too, like all the others.

Chopin... He may have reconsidered his position when he became older and weaker, but that was definitely after he slept with winecorks to increase the stretch between his fingers. Very much obsessed with the material side of things.

[hardy_practice]

You seemed to have confused training with drilling somewhere along the line.  Of course all pianists train!  They even practice!

[dima_76557]

You seemed to have confused training with drilling somewhere along the line.  Of course all pianists train!  They even practice!

I am humble enough to take the blame for misunderstanding and confusing everything you really wanted to say. I'll just leave it at that then.

[hardy_practice]

I doubt if it's half as much of a challenge to convey polyphony on a clavichord

If that's not the lamest post yet!

[nyiregyhazi]

Why always about me??  The article doesn't mention me at all!  

It became about you when you made a fallacious portrayal of your personal way of trying to deal with the modern grand as supposedly being the absolute and lone necessary way to deal with it. You are wrong, which is why you never found ease on such instruments. Having stated your discomfort and struggle yourself, you are not some God like figure who is in a position to declare the only possible way for anyone to approach a grand. You are in a position to detail what you as an individual had experienced, when trying and failing to fully overcome the demands. The most accomplished pianists do not "react" with their arms, in order to counter the reactions from the instrument. They absorb them via a lengthened arm that moves laterally. Had I not discovered this, I would still be having an extremely hard time on heavy actions too.

Au contraire, actually kedbedding was de riguer in Hummel's time.

Stop acting like a child. That's the point I made, not the the contrary. The only thing it contradicts in your own naive claim that reactions are negligible on older pianos- which you've evidently forgotten already. Pick a stance and stick with it. You contradict yourself left right and centre and it's not even clear what point you are attempting to make.

Also, you present your source as if to suggest that i had argued that the arms produce all the sound. I didn't. I stated that it's the same basic technique on any instrument - where fingers chiefly provide power and arms are merely an optional addition to that power. Reactions don't disappear simply because the fingers are the main power source. This is exactly the situation in which it's so important not to "react" with the arm, but to stay passive. You can get away more with tightening the arm on a lighter action, but there's no hiding from it on a concert grand. When you respond to the reactions of finger movement by involving muscles in the arms, you simply lock yourself up. A small amount of supporting (not falling) weight and lateral movement is all that is needed to absorb reactions.

PS If the German instruments were so durable, how come Beethoven broke them so consistently? Obviously he was pushing their limits a lot further than the author of the article.

[hardy_practice]

Stop acting like a child.

If that's your attitude you can talk to the hand.

edit: to be fair, you edit out the insults and I'll consider replying

[nyiregyhazi]

If that's your attitude you can talk to the hand.

edit: to be fair, you edit out the insults and I'll consider replying

I assumed you were simply trolling - given that it would be impossible for any intelligent person to interpret what you said as running contrary to my point about the fact that reactions are certainly not negligible. If you were being sincere, it isn't even worth trying to debate with a person who virtually rewords a point and then claims that this mildly reworded point contradicts that very same point.


You carry on shying away from concert grands and blaming everything under the sun for the fact that you cannot cope with them (other than your technique, of course). I'll get on with caring about a quality of technique that can be universally applied to different instruments.

[thalbergmad]

Drill can be mindless but shouldn't be.  

I do consider myself to be a committed driller on my banjo. I have spent months playing chord inversions up and down the neck to the extent that chord shapes are in my fingers as well as my brain and I don't get "lost" on the fretboard.

My piano teacher used to tell me that exercises do not have to be musical, but it is more pleasant if they are.

Thal