Two-Hands C Position: How Long?

[florentin]

Florentin, what do you think of the idea that a student can find D via the two black keys, and thus does not need to rely on hand position to do so?

I offered this a week ago.  I have asked several times.  Will there be a response?

Too many posts to read, and to reply to, on both boards
Your idea did not go ignored.

I am working on a post right now, and your reference to the D being between the two black keys is part of it. I will return in a day or two with that post, but I'll do it in the other place. There seems to be more dialogue there.

Sorry I didn't respond to your reference. I saw it.
Thanks for the reminder.

[faulty_damper]

Stating that you have discovered what you think is a more effective way to teach is ok. You are not alone in that. We all improve ourselves continually.

I'm playing an entirely different game.  I've shown many teachers exactly what it is that I do that gets the results that they can't.  It's because they are still playing the old pedagogical game that they are blinded because they are trying to fit what I do to what they do.

Stating that all educators in the public school system "suck", as you put it, is simply insensitive, untrue, and plain rude. One does not need any research literature to arrive at this conclusion.

I dont' state that.  The literature implies that.  I also never said "all" teachers suck as you say, but most do.  There's a reason why the US lags so far behind most industrialized countries, behind Finland and S. Korea.  https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/best-education-in-the-wor_n_2199795.html

And yes, you'd have to look at the literature to arrive to the conclusion that most teachers aren't very effective.  The assumption that all teachers are good is a myth perpetuated by poor performing teachers.

[faulty_damper]

Faulty, I have also done tons of research, both in reading and in the field by talking to and observing people.  You seem to dismiss everything that I have done, as though you already know what it is, which you cannot do.  What if I stated that whatever you are saying is myth and excuses, without having a clue what you do?  It is the same thing.

Sounds like you and I have done exactly the same thing.  And no, I didn't dismiss anything you've done as I don't know what you've done.  Also, I have evidence to back up everything I've stated in this thread.  Notice that neither you, nor anyone else, provided any kind of evidence to the contrary.  There's a reason for that: it doesn't exist.  Instead, the counter argument is to appeal to some sense of moral ground like feeling good has anything to do with it.

[florentin]

I dont' state that.  The literature implies that.  I also never said "all" teachers suck as you say, but most do.

You are twisting your own writing. Of course, it's going to feel natural for you to twist the writings of others... go back and see what you wrote. Does your writing "imply" that you are referring to most or all?

Even to say that most teachers do "suck", and that you found a way to do it differently, even though you no longer teach... would take a lot of arrogance.

You see the Huffington as literature?

[faulty_damper]

Do you even realize that I am trying to help teachers?  Of course not!  Because I'm telling you things you don't want to hear.

What you want to hear is that all teachers are great and can do no wrong.  I am not the deluded one.

[j_menz]

Am I the only one here who doesn't know what "C position" is?

[florentin]

Do you even realize that I am trying to help teachers? 

Glad you cleared that up, because you had me all confused

[florentin]

Am I the only one here who doesn't know what "C position" is?

C Position means that the LH pinky starts on the low C and the RH thumb starts on Middle C. Many traditional piano books will start there. Some books will start on Middle C Position, where both thumbs start on middle C.

[keypeg]

C Position means that the LH pinky starts on the low C and the RH thumb starts on Middle C. Many traditional piano books will start there. Some books will start on Middle C Position, where both thumbs start on middle C.

I read a lot of discussions on this when I first joined the piano forums.  Apparently a lot of the older books would start with music that was in C major, and comprised the 5 notes from C to G which could be played with fingers 1 - 5 each perched over an adjacent key.  This becomes a "position".  Later the student learns to perch the hand over G to D, and this becomes the "G position".  Eventually this gets expanded.

In the discussions I read, teachers found that students ended up associating piano keys with fingers and positions, rather than as addresses where you go to fetch the note you want to play.  Since these older books kept to these positions for a long time, the kids became fearful about moving out of these positions that had been "home".  It was a big deal.  Most teachers were avoiding these old position-based books by the time I joined the fora.

[m1469]

I move them through positions as soon as they can mentally cope with it.  I didn't used to teach by position because I thought I was fundamentally opposed to it, but there were definitely problems with that.  There are problems with everything, though, in that there is not a single concept that teaches all concepts at once, and the act of piano playing needs to be broken down into parts in order for students to learn how they function together.  And, if an element is not truly learned, then their overall understanding suffers.

Generally, I teach by position, always starting with middle C.  Then C Major, and playing HT will begin in these positions, as well as the introduction of flats and sharps in here.  Playing in these positions may also involve small crosses, like one finger reaching a note outside of the position.  Students generally like having positions to give them a home base, and when they have a home base I can help them learn broader concepts step by step without overwhelming them.  I place heavier emphasis on fingering than on note names, and deal with note names and key names "separately" (but thoroughly, and they are of course ultimately connected).  

My main reason for this is because I feel that, as far as the hand itself and technique is concerned, it is most important for them to start to understand the principles of fingering as it relates to note groupings in the text, the width and flexibility of their hand, and how to feel the entire hand on the piano at once.  I want for them to carry over into any repertoire how the hand relates to groups of notes, and eventually how to make fingering and technical decisions especially when it uses expanded hand and harmonic positions.

With somebody who is an averagely interested learner, and who is practicing somewhat regularly at home, they will learn the concepts in my second paragraph in the first couple of months, and be expanding soon after.  Most of these people are seeking the expansion, and as long as somebody is grasping the concepts I want for them to be grasping, and especially if they are seeking to expand, I will not hold them back.

[faulty_damper]

In the discussions I read, teachers found that students ended up associating piano keys with fingers and positions, rather than as addresses where you go to fetch the note you want to play. 

Students were also reading finger numbers, not note heads, and were not even consciously aware that there were 5 lines per staff.  In regards to keyboard geography, they didn't have any concept of playing sharps and learned to avoid them at all costs.  If they had to reach far away for 1 note, they would immediately place their hand back into C position even if the very next note was next to that 1 note.  These are some of the reasons I don't teach hand positions because it can quickly become a prison.

Instead, by focusing on the music, the position of the hand becomes intuitive because they are aiming for a musical goal.  In other words, they know that a key will produce a certain pitch in a melody.  This takes longer but it's an important skill.  This also allows them to improvise since they've associated keys with pitches, instead of keys with notes.  One is musical, the other a typewriter.

[keypeg]

Students were also reading finger numbers, not note heads, and were not even consciously aware that there were 5 lines per staff.  In regards to keyboard geography, they didn't have any concept of playing sharps and learned to avoid them at all costs.  If they had to reach far away for 1 note, they would immediately place their hand back into C position even if the very next note was next to that 1 note.  These are some of the reasons I don't teach hand positions because it can quickly become a prison.

Instead, by focusing on the music, the position of the hand becomes intuitive because they are aiming for a musical goal.  In other words, they know that a key will produce a certain pitch in a melody.  This takes longer but it's an important skill.  This also allows them to improvise since they've associated keys with pitches, instead of keys with notes.  One is musical, the other a typewriter.

That is a good synopsis of the types of things I was reading about.  I was never exposed to them myself.

[m1469]

Students were also reading finger numbers, not note heads, and were not even consciously aware that there were 5 lines per staff.  

If my students are capable of writing at *all*, I have them writing their own fingering into their little pieces as soon as possible.  This forces them to look at the note heads, consider which way is up and down on the piano and the staff, and how those relate to each hand.  They actually tend to enjoy this.  I am OK with their ability to write their fingering in as being a separate skill than reading the notes while playing, in the first couple of months.  I also have them write in letter names and I'm OK with that being a separate skill for the first few months.  We work on these things as separate skills but in ways that start to join them together.  I'm OK with it all joining together as they get good at each of these separately.

It's a milestone for my students and big joy for me to hand them a piece, and without us saying a word they start writing in their own fingerings with a basic knowledge and sense of reasoning on how to organize their hands to the text and piano, and then for them to begin practicing away on it without me needing to intervene.

[faulty_damper]

I'm generally against writing fingerings because then they start to read fingers and not noteheads.  A quick test to see if they are reading fingerings or noteheads is to change the finger numbers within a group. If they play the correct melody, then they are reading noteheads.  If they play according to the fingerings, it'll sound bad.