Hanon

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Does this work?

My teacher is making me do this.  

The same with scales.

[thesixthsensemusic]

I'm sensing your question has to do with you lacking the motivation to learn them? I don;t see why you should use the Hanon excercises as they're utterly boring and not really music. One can find the same challenges in hundreds of etudes by Czerny, Duvernoy, Burgmüller, Heller, to name but a few, that are actually pieces of music...

Scales on the other hand would be a part of your preparation routine for sure, before starting work on pieces using the corresponding keys. If you can't find motivation to separately do them, perhaps ask for pieces you can learn that correspond to them so it gives you a clear purpose, aiding in motivation.

Good luck!

[mralkanesque]

Hanon is the essential volume for beginning technique. BUT, if used incorrectly, the player may end up hating them, and therefore may receive none of the benefits that this book has to offer. To start, play the exercises as written. (especially the first 30 or so), then, to keep things interesting (after all, they are famous for being VERY repetitious) play with dotted rhythms (if you don't know what means, ask your teacher) This will not only make them fun, but you more control over your fingers. You can even try playing them in different keys this will also teach you basic transposing). The rest of the exercises deal with different pianistic problems: thirds, sixths, octaves, scales, tremolos etc, so paying attention to the side-notes is essential to playing them correctly. If you are faithful to your daily practicing, you can finish the volume in about a year or so. After which, you can review it occasionally, or move on to a more difficult method book. ( after I finished Hanon, I started working on Liszt exercises) Happy playing

[faulty_damper]

Oh Gawd... I only clicked because you started this thread.  And now i find out you have a shitty teacher who has technical difficulties.

[dima_76557]

Does this work?

My teacher is making me do this. 

The same with scales.

Your teacher seems to believe it does. Give him/her a fair chance to prove it by following his/her instructions to the letter.

Ten Important Attributes Of Beautiful Pianoforte Playing. S.V. Rachmaninov (see "technical proficiency")

[faulty_damper]

 Just because some really famous pianist-composer endorsed it (only because he was required to play them in the so-called "Russian school") doesn't mean it works.  Quite the contrary as a search on this forum of Hanon threads decry its use.  I decry it, too, having played them.  Biggest waste of time I ever spent.

Anyway, if I had a teacher now who claimed that Hanon will work wonders for me, I'd just pull up the most technically difficult work I could find and challenge him/her to learn it.  If his/her technique is better than mine at playing it, then I'd do those damn exercises.  Think, grasshopper, of all those Chinese/Hong Kong martial arts movies where the wanderer seeks a master by first challenging the sifu of the school.  If he can beat him, he will submit to become the sifu's disciple.    Oh how many miles this lonely master had to travel to find that.

[dima_76557]

faulty_damper

rachmaninoff_forever is in a very difficult position. He is most likely a student in an institution and going against the status quo will not do him much good as a person.

Second, if he trusts his/her teacher, he should give him/her a chance. I think that is healthy for the student-teacher relationship. Asking this very question on this very forum with an anonymous crowd that doesn't know from their own experience what it is like to play the piano at concert level is actually already a breach of trust.

[theholygideons]

theoretically it should work. I mean look at friggen katsaris' technique, that guy spent hours doing scales and arpeggios and octaves when he was younger. I reckon for a definitive opinion, we should ask marc andre hamelin on what he does.

[dima_76557]

I reckon for a definitive opinion, we should ask marc andre hamelin on what he does.

While this clip is mainly in Japanese, the interview with Mark is in English. He starts talking about "symmetrical inversion" ("mirroring" the part of one hand exactly in the other hand, maintaining the structure of black and white) at 3:57.

[theholygideons]

I think he only uses it as a practising tool for when he plays the godowsky etudes that inverse the melody of the right hand in the left, e.g. for the black keys etude. Hamelin probably does a lot of stuff behind our backs which we don't know.

[dima_76557]

@ theholygideons

Doing Hanon in symmetrical inversion makes the exercises much more effective (my own experience). It's also a fun option if you have no other choice but to do them because your teacher wants you to. Also, one should do them in ALL keys, not only as written on the page.

[faulty_damper]

Also, one should do them in ALL keys, not only as written on the page.

So in your own words, you even disagree with the use of Hanon.

[faulty_damper]

faulty_damper

rachmaninoff_forever is in a very difficult position. He is most likely a student in an institution and going against the status quo will not do him much good as a person.

Second, if he trusts his/her teacher, he should give him/her a chance. I think that is healthy for the student-teacher relationship. Asking this very question on this very forum with an anonymous crowd that doesn't know from their own experience what it is like to play the piano at concert level is actually already a breach of trust.

It's not my fault he was only able to get accepted at THAT school with a bunch of lousy teachers.  If he were a better musician, he'd have gotten into one of the *better* schools.

It's also obvious that he doesn't trust her.  As you said, he's here questioning her authority on the matter which implies he doesn't trust her.

Anyway, I was in his position once and went against the status quo, attempting to petition against having to take more lessons with the teachers at the school because they were incompetent.  I failed.  So instead of being forced to take more lessons, I simply changed my emphasis from performance (which required 3 more semesters of lessons) to music theory/history/composition (which only required 3.)  Best decision of my music degree.

[dima_76557]

So in your own words, you even disagree with the use of Hanon.

No. I am just very particular about following what great pianists advise (from the article I linked):

He knows the exercises in the book of studies by Hanon so well that he knows each study by number, and the examiner may ask him, for instance, to play study 17, or 28, or 32, etc. The student at once sits at the keyboard and plays. Although the original studies are all in the key of "C", he may be requested to play them in any other key. He has studied them so thoroughly that he should be able to play them in any key desired.

Any key on the keyboard feels different in terms of proprioception, hence the requirement.

[dima_76557]

It's not my fault he was only able to get accepted at THAT school with a bunch of lousy teachers.  If he were a better musician, he'd have gotten into one of the *better* schools.

I cannot judge about the OP's musical qualities, but I suspect they're OK. I know for a fact that to get "into one of the *better* schools", a certain minimum TECHNICAL foundation should be present. Other schools may be more forgiving. Technical foundation is something that seems to be lacking a bit, otherwise the OP's present teacher wouldn't be forcing Hanon down his throat.

[faulty_damper]

I only follow advice from people with proven technique.  Rachmaninoff was not one of them as is indicated by listening to his own recordings.  On a similar vein, if Schumann recommended doing exercises, I think most informed pianists wouldn't follow his advice since he was such a lousy pianist.

Also, what you suggest is that Hanon is one sure way to become accomplished or improve technique.  I say that you can become very accomplished without ever having played a single one of those brainless exercises.  However, I say so having played those exercises which, imo, were useless as no one in their right mind would ever play them the way he intended and instructed in the beginning of the books.

[dima_76557]

Also, what you suggest is that Hanon is one sure way to become accomplished or improve technique.

That was not what I was trying to say. I never really liked that type of work until I learned what you should aim for while doing it. The personal lesson I learned is that ANYTHING done incorrectly/inefficiently will produce poor results, be it works of art or technical exercises. What counts is not what the pianist does, but how he/she does it.
P.S.: I greatly prefer Liszt's technical exercises to Hanon's, by the way.

[faulty_damper]

Uh huh... so you directly stating that the way Hanon, himself, said to play the exercises with fingers held high, etc. is the correct way?  Surely anyone who does that is in for a lot of muscle spasms.

[dima_76557]

Uh huh... so you directly stating that the way Hanon, himself, said to play the exercises with fingers held high, etc. is the correct way?  Surely anyone who does that is in for a lot of muscle spasms.

As far as I remember, he did not instruct to "HOLD the fingers high". It was "Lift high and strike distinctly" or something of that nature (not "as hard as you can" as some seem to think). It is training of the nerves, not of the muscles. Besides, Katsaris, Sokolov, etc. survived the school, so it can't be that bad.

I am also not sure if the finger lifting is the essential part in those exercises, though. I think the actual aim is listening for the tone quality you expect without having to concentrate on "interpretation" etc. I think, therefore, that the exercises can be used by pianists with any technical approach. Marik1, for example, probably the best classical pianist on this forum, does not lift his fingers and does not teach such an approach to his students, but, judging from his posts, he still uses Hanon to help some of his students reach certain technical goals.

[maitea]

To the OP:

Nothing per se will work, unless done correctly.

When learning technique through pieces, as for example learning a Mozart sonata (plenty of scales and arpeggios there) maybe despite doing it incorrectly technically/mecanically some people might argue you would get at least something "musical" out of it. You'd be honing your soul and ears. (Unless done so badly and getting frustrated that the student starts killing the music-which I have seen done before)

Other teachers will say that the music itself will lead you to the right gestures, to the correct technique. Whilst this would be the ideal scenario and I believe is the case in advance level students/pianists, it is in my opinion not what happens when the student's level is low or very low, and has no appropiante notion of his body and the piano.

This is why many teachers prefer to work with the students honing their mechanics and building up technique separately from working pieces. (It is easier to keep focus on the physical aspects rather than getting "lost" with the music- though some will find Hanon so boring, they will struggle to focus.. it all depends). Others have a combination of both.. It all depends.

Strictly to your question: Yes, it CAN work if done properly (that means you being diligent in your practice and your teacher giving you the correct instructions).

My advice in any case is, ask your teacher first, especially before asking in the forum, with all my due respets to other forum members, and that includes myself obvously. Ask always your teacher why and how. You are quite right in being inquisitive and wanting to know, nothing wrong with coming here to share your doubts etc, but ask your teacher first, give him the opportunity to explain you, and give him the credit he diserves as your teacher. (If he doesn't have credibility to your eyes as your mentor, you may be better working under someone else).

M

[faulty_damper]

I, as a teacher and a psychologist with expertise in learning and memory, am anti-pedagogy.  Pedagogy is based on feel-good ideas.  As a result, many basic principles in pedagogy are built on assumptions that is directly or indirectly contradicted by the science.  In other words, they don't work. 

Hanon's assumption was that piano-playing was a finger activity. This is fundamentally wrong.  But not knowing that piano-playing is a whole body activity, he wrote those exercises only for the fingers.

I'd like to see someone's Chopin improve by playing Hanon.

[andrewkoay]

I never did much Hanon exercises, though I just use 3 for warmup purposes (played at medium speed with an emphasis on relaxation, and played quite a different style with a different purpose as to what Hanon written). To me, it is very boring to keep focusing on exercises alone.

You can develop very good fingerwork by just slow practising and studying lots of classical and baroque pieces, then with that as your fundamentals, you can move on to more armwork in the romantic and modern period.

This way, you get a massive repertoire along the way as part of your journey of improvement, which can be used for recitals/competitions. 

For me, I think the Chopin Etudes are the best way of tackling and overcoming technical difficulties to make myself a more well-rounded pianist. I have worked through most of the 24 Etudes and I feel that there is consistently a pretty huge jump in level once I manage to tackle a certain etude. It helps that all of them sound awesome too! 

[dima_76557]

I'd like to see someone's Chopin improve by playing Hanon.

Someone's Chopin improves mostly (but not solely!) by his/her approach to Chopin's works, for which the performer should be ready technically. Even Chopin himself did not give his own etudes before the students had gone through standard classical etudes by Czerny, Cramer, Clementi and the likes, who had exactly the same philosophies as Hanon had: preparing the students' "fingers" (the rest of the body was assumed to take part as nature had intended) for a certain task with works of very poor artistic content.

EDIT: Advertisers' tricks never change. Obviously, Hanon wanted to bypass the hundreds of already existing etudes by condensing everything into his own exercises and selling them as THE solution to all problems. Good old advertising tricks for something that is only part of the solution, if you ask me.

High-level piano playing is somewhat akin to ballet: moving to music, with the difference that the pianist has to create the music through his/her movements. Ballet dancers don't just dance only to recordings of the works they will perform. A solid technical foundation and preparation that has nothing to do with art or dancing as such is also part of the requirements. Although in ballet dancing the whole body is involved, separate body parts are worked out separately.

This does not mean that good stretching exercises in ballet are the ultimate goal in ballet dancing as an art. It does not mean either that someone who can do exercises well will automatically be a good ballet dancer. It does not mean either that someone who can dance Tchaikovsky's "Swan Lake" will also be able to dance Khatchaturian's "Spartacus", etc.

[classicalnhiphop]

I hate hannon.  Never really used it, but my technique is fine, although a bit lacking sometimes when it comes to Don Juan like double notes.

[thesixthsensemusic]

Someone's Chopin improves mostly (but not solely!) by his/her approach to Chopin's works, for which the performer should be ready technically.

I agree, but does that mean you need to do Hanon? And if it does (or any other similar finger excercises for that matter, like Cortot or Tausig for example) does it mean one has to work through all of them on their own right?

Playing non-musical excercises without putting the acquired facilities to immediate practical use, will increase dexterity, yes, but not teach you how to use this in a new piece. It only facillitates using these techniques in pieces. IMO excercises like Hanon or Cortot's Principles of Pianoforte Technique are best put to use as a sort of 'encyclopaedia' in which one can look for solutions to technical challenges and pick those that one needs in preparation for this or that piece of passagework, from, let's say, one of the Chopin etudes, rather than a 'textbook', which one studies completely to gain control over a subject before moving on to the next level.

And I bet it would have been much less frustrating too, if they were only used for that purpose, or perhaps as a warmup excercise.

[dima_76557]

@ thesixthsensemusic

I am not saying that Hanon is a "must". I am just giving reasons why the OP's teacher gives that stuff to the OP, and thereby assume that the professor is not a fool who really has no idea what he/she is doing. How, why, and how much of the Hanon the OP has to chew - I really have no idea.

[faulty_damper]

Wait, wait, wait... now you are saying that Hanon is optional.  Huh?  Are you kidding me?  You went from "Well, Rachmaninoff did them so I should to," to "Eh, it's optional if you don't have time to learn real repertoire."  You're totally backtracking. Again. But on a different topic.  Make up your mind.

Rach4, you should not do Hanon, but you should learn scales since it's the backbone of harmony.  I'm surprised your previous teacher didn't have you learn them.

[falala]

Hanon's assumption was that piano-playing was a finger activity. This is fundamentally wrong.  But not knowing that piano-playing is a whole body activity, he wrote those exercises only for the fingers.

I can see what you mean. but the problem with it is that piano-playing IS indeed, SOMETIMES a finger activity.

So many of these arguments about which parts of the body are involved in playing the piano and how are just ridiculous, because the fact is that different demands of different types of material require a wide variety of ways of using the body. Sometimes that involves just finger movement and very little else; sometimes arm, sometimes wrist etc.

Hanon is useful for developing a particular style of finger-focused playing that particularly works for fast passages requiring agility, evenness and independence. The fact that a lot of passages require a different technique (or the same technique PLUS something else) is irrelevant - unless one is arguing that Hanon is ALL you need to do to become good at the piano, which I don't see anyone here doing.

As long as a student isn't doing anything counterproductive in the process (like developing stiffness in certain muscles), then practising ANY kind of useful technical approach is good. They can always add other approaches as well.

There may be an issue of return-on-time involved. ie it might be more beneficial to spend the time that one would spend on Hanon doing something else. That's the only valid objection I can see. But for someone practising a lot who has time to do Hanon as well as plenty of repertoire, I don't see that as a major problem.

[dima_76557]

Wait, wait, wait... now you are saying that Hanon is optional.  Huh?  Are you kidding me?  You went from "Well, Rachmaninoff did them so I should to," to "Eh, it's optional if you don't have time to learn real repertoire."  You're totally backtracking. Again. But on a different topic.  Make up your mind.

I did not say *I* did them because Rachmaninoff did them. Personally, I went through Liszt's technical exercises, which I think are far more thorough and practical than Hanon. Sergei Rachmaninoff was quoted in this thread twice to show the OP that:
1) he did them and advised others to do so, so there must be some benefit in them;
2) he said that if you do the exercises, they should be done in ALL keys, and not only in the key of "C" as written, which is a principle I wholeheartedly agree with.

[thalbergmad]

Oh no, not another one of these boring Hannon threads.

Arguments for and against are pointless and appear only to end up with long posts by over opinionated tosspots.

Why people cannot grasp the simple fact that they appear to assist some and not others is beyond me.

Screw the science and give them a go.

Thal

[thesixthsensemusic]

@ thesixthsensemusic

I am not saying that Hanon is a "must". I am just giving reasons why the OP's teacher gives that stuff to the OP, and thereby assume that the professor is not a fool who really has no idea what he/she is doing. How, why, and how much of the Hanon the OP has to chew - I really have no idea.

I know. But you did seem to imply that the OP was supposed to go along with his teacher's wishes if he was in a music school which demands this of its pupils, or did I read badly? No problem, I often do that but that is what I got from some of your earlier posts in here.

As for myself, I had 2 teachers, the first of whom was really a strict disciplinarian who made everyone do loads of excercises, scales, and study pieces. I progressed very little with him because he did not manage to motivate me. The second one had a more hands-off approach and preferred to let me do the exploration and only corrected me with what I was doing on my own initiative. That worked much better, I actually started having fun in playing the piano, and still made technical progress too.

Bottomline is, you are right about many things you said, but IMHO the question of wether or not the OP should do any Hanon, when he/she clearly has trouble motivating for their use right now given this thread, is more related to being motivated than to the question wether or not they are useful. Any usefulness of any homework relies on motivation after all. Just trying to weigh the pros and cons

[thesixthsensemusic]

Oh no, not another one of these boring Hannon threads.

Arguments for and against are pointless and appear only to end up with long posts by over opinionated tosspots.

Why people cannot grasp the simple fact that they appear to assist some and not others is beyond me.

Screw the science and give them a go.

Thal

Things can get complicated whenever you differ of opinion with your teacher on the schedule they set for you. That is a serious matter, not just 'another boring Hanon thread'. Both students lacking the ability to do as they're told to, and too rigid teaching methods by their instructors, have prevented many people from progressing their skills often enough. Which one applies here, I don't know. The teacher might be right here, but migth as well try and force him/her something that's not useful.

But don't you think it's at least worth trying to answer the question asked? And if you wish to do something else than what your teacher says, how do you make this clear without souring your mutual understanding? If I had a piano teacher I was happy with but had such a difference of opinion, I'd think twice about bringing it up before doing so actually.

We're only here to help one another, not to ignore a question because similar ones have been asked before, right?

[j_menz]

Does this work?

My teacher is making me do this. 

The same with scales.

If nothing else, you may learn to spell his name correctly. 

Teachers can be a pain at times. There's usually some method in their apparent madness, though, so go with it.

[faulty_damper]

We're only here to help one another, not to ignore a question because similar ones have been asked before, right?

Do you know just how many Hanon threads there are circulating this forum?  I've never counted but I bet it's dozens.  The most thorough discussions of Hanon are to be found in decades-old threads, not new ones.

And I do ignore Hanon threads.  Until I saw who the poster was.  There's usually no point to discussing something that already has believers to convince them otherwise.  Like why I don't participate in existence of God(s) threads.

[dima_76557]

I know. But you did seem to imply that the OP was supposed to go along with his teacher's wishes if he was in a music school which demands this of its pupils, or did I read badly?

You have read that correctly. You don't go studying with a teacher to argue with him/her about the correctness of their methods. You go there to get the benefits later on of having studied with that teacher, you bear the things you may not like, and you simply do as you are told. If you are not ready to do that, you should just leave.

EDIT: The fastest way to get rid of Hanon (whether you believe in that method or not) is to give that teacher the most beautiful and perfect execution he/she has ever heard.

[thalbergmad]

But don't you think it's at least worth trying to answer the question asked?

Absolutely not. The original question was "does it work" and you cannot answer that and neither (despite claims to the contrary) can anyone else.

Thal

[faulty_damper]

Absolutely not. The original question was "does it work" and you cannot answer that and neither (despite claims to the contrary) can anyone else.

Thal

How can you say that when many pianists have done them and had divergent opinions?  The fact that there are divergent opinions after having done them already suggests that there's something quite amiss with it.

[thalbergmad]

How can you say that when many pianists have done them and had divergent opinions? 

The very fact that there are different opinions simply adds to my statement. The question is unanswerable until the exercises are tried.

There is no single answer that will hold true for all pianists and it is blinkered to suggest otherwise.

If one was to attempt to answer the initial question, perhaps "sometimes" might be the only safe answer.

Thal

[gyzzzmo]

Ofcourse playing Hanon helps with gaining better control of your fingers. The point only is that its so boring to play, that it is not efficient to play it for a long time. Playing piano is a thing of the brains, not about training muscles. Many people think that if you just play it enough, its a guarentee to become a virtuoso. But 'just playing Hanon' wont get you anywhere, unless you practise it the right way, bring your own variations, and by keeping it only a short part of your daily piano repetoire

[thesixthsensemusic]

You have read that correctly. You don't go studying with a teacher to argue with him/her about the correctness of their methods. You go there to get the benefits later on of having studied with that teacher, you bear the things you may not like, and you simply do as you are told. If you are not ready to do that, you should just leave.

Sorry but I think that a student should take a pro-active stance regarding his or her schedule, and have the teacher help them by developing skills in a way that is tailor-made for them personally. A music school is not supposed to be a robot factory but a place of education. Education takes an active and open-minded approach from both sides IMHO. And this seems to work too, but it requires more social and didactical skills from the teacher.

If there's so many ways to teach technique, why should one be so thick as to go for the one the student does not like at all?

Stubbornness on part of the teacher is IMHO way worse than with the student. At worst: a student's refusal to co-operate will tell a teacher their approach to them should be re-evaluated. But, if a teacher, on the other hand, is as flexible as the door of a bank vault, they might irreparably damage the student's motivation.

[dima_76557]

@ thesixthsensemusic

This is not about creating "robots". When I come to you for a lesson or two, I will have to be open to listen to you, try your approach, and only if it doesn't work for me - react if I think it is appropriate to do so. Giving my unlearned "opinion" towards you as an authority before I even tried your approach may seem "cool", but it is simply a waste of time and energy, since it tends to create unproductive spiritual and psychological "unrest" for both. After all, you as the teacher/mentor are the host, and by your door, another thousand potential students are eagerly waiting to hear what you have to share.

EDIT: In the case of Hanon, I can imagine that I have already tried it, and it didn't work. In that case, if you propose it to me, I will do both you and me a favor by mentioning that, and by asking you HOW you want me to practise it, because it didn't seem to work well for me in the past. Telling you that Hanon is crap and that scientists have proven that long ago, or simply ignoring your request are not viable options if I want to keep our teacher-student relationship alive.

[faulty_damper]

I'd like to change my previous position from nay to yay the damn Hanon exercises on one caveat: you don't do them they way he instructed.  If you use the most efficient technique, you'll be able to blister through them with no trouble at all; that includes neither muscular strain nor speed barriers.  You'll note that there is a tempo marking and if you played them the way he instructed, that is the speed limit; you'll not be able to play faster than that.  However, if you used a different technique, you'll be able to play them at twice the indicated speed.

My reasoning for changing my position is not so much for technical reasons but for finger pattern memory.  You'll notice that many of those patterns can be found in Beethoven, Haydn, and Mozart sonatas, as well as in Bach's works.  Now, you could just play those sonatas or baroque music, but who wants to waste time on real repertoire?

[dima_76557]

You'll note that there is a tempo marking and if you played them the way he instructed, that is the speed limit; you'll not be able to play faster than that.  However, if you used a different technique, you'll be able to play them at twice the indicated speed.

I beg to disagree. The maximum tempo Hanon indicates is the tempo at which you can still CONSCIOUSLY control every movement separately. Faster tempi are a matter of grouping and reflexes (you no longer attempt to control every single movement consciously, but you simply "let go"), and this can go as fast as MM 120, 8 notes to the beat, as mentioned in Rachmaninoff's article. The faster you can hear/listen, the faster you will play if the basics have been worked out thoroughly.

Playing consciously at a moderate tempo is much harder on the nervous system than trying to break the sound barrier in a neck-breaking presto where the slightest unevenness is no longer perceived.

Now, you could just play those sonatas or baroque music, but who wants to waste time on real repertoire?

This argument sounds logical and convincing, but is it actually true?

You may not want to abuse works of art to learn the mechanics of playing. Things like interpretation, style, etc., may distract the student from achieving certain more "material" goals like learning to control key acceleration.

Also, works of art are usually in one key only, which makes their value for all-round technical development (and sight-reading new pieces!) rather limited. You have to go through lots and lots of literature to get the same results in terms of command over the keyboard. I think therefore that what seems to be a more pleasant shortcut is actually a very long detour, in which the student simply procrastinates what could have been done in a really very short time in a far more condensed form.

[faulty_damper]

I beg to disagree. The maximum tempo Hanon indicates is the tempo at which you can still CONSCIOUSLY control every movement separately. Faster tempi are a matter of grouping and reflexes (you no longer attempt to control every single movement consciously, but you simply "let go"), and this can go as fast as MM 120, 8 notes to the beat, as mentioned in Rachmaninoff's article. The faster you can hear/listen, the faster you will play if the basics have been worked out thoroughly.

This is BS.  No one who plays a musical instrument with any skill actually consciously controls their movements. It's automatic, just like no one who wants to go to the bathroom needs to consciously move their legs.

Again, if you play according to HIS INSTRUCTIONS, that is the speed limit. You cannot lift fingers high and then hammer them down fast enough to break that limit.  Anyone who can play significantly faster than that isn't following his instructions.

Also, works of art are usually in one key only, which makes their value for all-round technical development (and sight-reading new pieces!) rather limited. You have to go through lots and lots of literature to get the same results in terms of command over the keyboard. I think therefore that what seems to be a more pleasant shortcut is actually a very long detour, in which the student simply procrastinates what could have been done in a really very short time in a far more condensed form.

The same motives are in various keys across many different repertoire.  Just like you said.  There's nothing wrong with learning lots and lots of repertoire.

Also, don't get me started on procrastination. I'm an expert on it so anyone who says anything about it doesn't know a thing about it.  You used that term inappropriately which means you don't know what it is.  Don't mess with me on that topic or I'll educate you until you know the real meaning of procrastination.

[dima_76557]

This is BS.  No one who plays a musical instrument with any skill actually consciously controls their movements.

There you said it. Nobody with the right skills already present needs Hanon. And what about getting to that level?
P.S.: By the way, why, then, do you think the great masters propagate slow practice, even if a person is already a virtuoso? Hint: see below.

Again, if you play according to HIS INSTRUCTIONS, that is the speed limit. You cannot lift fingers high and then hammer them down fast enough to break that limit.  Anyone who can play significantly faster than that isn't following his instructions.

First of all, you don't hammer the keys. Those are not Hanon's instructions.

Whether you lift your fingers, scratch, press, push, or caress close to the keys as your basic approach to moving the keys, up to a certain level you will *have to* control your movements consciously and deliberately to guarantee quality and balance to prepare the playing apparatus for faster speeds, and it is something the pianist will have to do all his/her life if he/she wants to maintain quality in his/her playing. There is a maximum tempo at which you can do this, indicated by Hanon, and if you want to go faster, you will enter the zone you describe in which you no longer control your movements consciously.

[faulty_damper]

There you said it. Nobody with the right skills already present needs Hanon. And what about getting to that level?

Wait.  Let me recount all the walking exercises I did when I was a baby to learn how to walk...
Oh, that's right. Exactly zero.  I'm a virtuoso walker, too.  I only trip once every 1500 steps I take!

There is a maximum tempo at which you can do this, indicated by Hanon, and if you want to go faster, you will enter the zone you describe in which you no longer control your movements consciously.

No, you change your technique.  Once you change your technique, you are no longer playing it as Hanon prescribes.  Thus, you are no longer doing Hanon exercises.

[thesixthsensemusic]

@ thesixthsensemusic

This is not about creating "robots". When I come to you for a lesson or two, I will have to be open to listen to you, try your approach, and only if it doesn't work for me - react if I think it is appropriate to do so. Giving my unlearned "opinion" towards you as an authority before I even tried your approach may seem "cool", but it is simply a waste of time and energy, since it tends to create unproductive spiritual and psychological "unrest" for both. After all, you as the teacher/mentor are the host, and by your door, another thousand potential students are eagerly waiting to hear what you have to share.

I see what you mean yet here it's the other way... music teachers are abundant but jobs are not. In Holland they used to heavily subsidise municipal music schools, and once they stopped doing so (around 2005) almost 800 qualified teachers got made redundant. Here it's pupils that are scarce not the services of the teacher.

I am a product of the old municipal music school system. MY parents paid 200 euros a year for half an hour of piano lessons a week. The rest was subsidised. Also, pre-conservatoire education was free. It is not like that anymore. And we have too many conservatoire graduates even to fill music teacher positions at schools.

[dima_76557]

Wait.  Let me recount all the walking exercises I did when I was a baby to learn how to walk...
Oh, that's right. Exactly zero.  I'm a virtuoso walker, too.  I only trip once every 1500 steps I take!

We cannot compare a biologically pre-programmed action like walking with an artificial one like piano playing. The moment a pianist stops programming his/her piano movements regularly in a tempo that is manageable, the quality of his/her playing deteriorates. I thought this was common knowledge?

No, you change your technique.  Once you change your technique, you are no longer playing it as Hanon prescribes.  Thus, you are no longer doing Hanon exercises.

Please clarify? Louis Hanon, an organist, not even a pianist (or maybe it was his editor?) prescribes the principles of the French School, but his exercises are widely used by teachers of other Schools who NEVER lift their fingers.

[chopin2015]

If you want something crazy, try Brahms 51 exercises. And scales, of course they work!

[thalbergmad]

And what about getting to that level?

An excellent question that the anti hannonists struggle with. The "all you need is repertoire" bollox is of no value if you have little repertoire.

Thal