Hanon

[faulty_damper]

We cannot compare a biologically pre-programmed action like walking with an artificial one like piano playing. The moment a pianist stops programming his/her piano movements regularly in a tempo that is manageable, the quality of his/her playing deteriorates. I thought this was common knowledge?

Walking is not biologically preprogrammed.  While babies do have reflexes that look like walking, if they are prevented from walking, they won't automatically walk when the restriction is removed.  It is a learned behavior.

Please clarify? Louis Hanon, an organist, not even a pianist (or maybe it was his editor?) prescribes the principles of the French School, but his exercises are widely used by teachers of other Schools who NEVER lift their fingers.

I don't think this was ever the French school.  Chopin clearly didn't use it and his technique doesn't even remotely look like it.

I don't understand what you're getting at about the lifting thing.  Hanon instructs to lift the fingers high and such.  This is how organists play the organ.  So, what you're trying to say is that those exercises were intended for the organ and NOT the piano?  Hmm... I think you may be on to something profound.

[dima_76557]

Walking is not biologically preprogrammed.  While babies do have reflexes that look like walking, if they are prevented from walking, they won't automatically walk when the restriction is removed.  It is a learned behavior.

The potential to walk is at least pre-programmed, isn't it? It is something humans are meant to do in order to survive. I wouldn't say this of an artifical skill such as piano playing.

I don't think this was ever the French school.  Chopin clearly didn't use it and his technique doesn't even remotely look like it.

Chopin is not the French school, and the French school is only partly based on *some* of Chopin's MUSICAL principles. One of the typical elements of the French school is finger lifting. This may have to do with the Erard, which Chopin found rather "heavy" in comparison with the Pleyel he played on. If in doubt, please check the available methodological literature.

I don't understand what you're getting at about the lifting thing.  Hanon instructs to lift the fingers high and such.  This is how organists play the organ.  So, what you're trying to say is that those exercises were intended for the organ and NOT the piano?  Hmm... I think you may be on to something profound.

What I am getting at is that the foreword and instructions in the book by Hanon are the least valuable part in the book. They may have been written by an editor to convince a potential buyer that "this is it", "look no further and buy the book". The finger lifting instructions may either refer to the principles of the French school, or to the way church organists on heavy organs practise. I am not a researcher to be able to say for sure.

[faulty_damper]

So now you are completely digressing by saying Hanon didn't write those instructions, the editor did.
I'm pretty sure you pulled the Chopin assertion out of thin air, too.
And no, it isn't pre-programed because as I said before, if there are restrictions and then it were removed, a person wouldn't automatically walk.  It has to be learned.

[dima_76557]

So now you are completely digressing by saying Hanon didn't write those instructions, the editor did.

I am not. I used "May have been", which is not the same as "actually was".

I'm pretty sure you pulled the Chopin assertion out of thin air, too.

Google is a patient friend, faulty_damper. I am really not going to provide "evidence" for every word I use, because it is rather tiresome to do everybody's homework.

The Legacy of Franz Liszt: His Contribution to the Nineteenth Century Music Repertoire

[...]Unlike Chopin who played upon a Pleyel which was meant for light and sophisticated playing and whose sound could only reach audible levels in the confines of a salon, Liszt preferred the heavier action of Érard’s Grand-pianos which were much more suited to concert halls [...].

Here is something about the French school. La Petite Méthode de piano: A Forgotten Connection To The French School. As you will see, it's remote from any of Chopin's ideas about piano playing:  CHOPIN THE TEACHER

[faulty_damper]

Here's a ridiculous analogy: Those Hanon instructions were written by snowmen from Singapore way back in 1892.  Snowmen were known to be supreme virtuosi at the piano and they became that way from hours of practice during the winter, when everyone else was inside huddled by the fire.   

And I never said that Chopin was part of the French school.  You misunderstood. In the 19th century, piano instruction was homogenized so that hundreds of aspiring pianists would go through the Methode, which consisted heavily of finger exercises and little else.  Many pianists ended up injuring themselves and none came out of it any more virtuosic.  This rush was part of the burgeoning bourgeoisie class where piano-playing was a sign of status and sophistication.  During this time, Chopin was raking in the francs, taking pretty young students for high fees.  His way of instruction contrasted starkly with the Conservatoire. 

I am really not going to provide "evidence" for every word I use, because it is rather tiresome to do everybody's homework.

Then your thoughts are opinion only.  Without evidence, you have no argument.  Remember, opinions are like anuses.  Everyone has one.  Some comes out with more sh*t than others.

[dima_76557]

Here's a ridiculous analogy:

Keyword being "ridiculous"? If you compare it to who Louis Hanon was, and where he came from, my variant seems slightly more plausible, doesn't it?
P.S.: Oops, forgot my source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Louis_Hanon

Then your thoughts are opinion only.  Without evidence, you have no argument.  Remember, opinions are like anuses.  Everyone has one.  Some comes out with more sh*t than others.

They are indeed nothing more than opinion, just as your statement that Hanon "doesn't work" and that Rachmaninoff did not have proven technique (reply # 15). If I am forced to give sources with every statement I make, then I will also have to make sure that all of my sources are 100% reliable. I am sorry, but I cannot possibly guarantee that, and neither can you. That's why we merely exchange opinions here, and hope that the opponent has good knowledge of the available literature or enough life experience to make at least an educated guess about the correctness or probability of this or that statement.

[faulty_damper]

And so we are forced to go back to the original source: Hanon's instructions to play the exercises. 

[dima_76557]

And so we are forced to go back to the original source: Hanon's instructions to play the exercises. 

Maybe YOU feel forced, but you don't have to feel forced if you don't want to. All it takes is to know and to accept that Hanon's exercises have been used all over the world for a very long time, completely ignoring the finger-lifting instructions.

[faulty_damper]

All it takes is to know and to accept that Hanon's exercises have been used all over the world for a very long time, completely ignoring the finger-lifting instructions.

So you admit that doing Hanon exercises against the way he instructs is the right way to do it.  No backing out of it now.  I quoted you.  In fact, I can quote you a couple of times in this thread that you stated the same thing, to do them but not in the way he instructs.  There. 

[dima_76557]

So you admit that doing Hanon exercises against the way he instructs is the right way to do it.  No backing out of it now.  I quoted you.  In fact, I can quote you a couple of times in this thread that you stated the same thing, to do them but not in the way he instructs.  There.  

I never made any evaluation of what is "right" or "wrong". The school of pianism will determine how the exercises are used.

[thalbergmad]

Many pianists ended up injuring themselves and none came out of it any more virtuosic. 

That is fascinating, I did not realise that many had injured themselves.

I will have to research further.

I wonder if it still happens today.

Thal

[ajspiano]

Does this work?

My teacher is making me do this. 

The same with scales.

Depends bro.

I used hanon last night...  but I almost never give it to students these days.

For me (I was made to study hanon) - I got basically nothing from it, except a sore wrist and 4-5 fingers. But once I had developed and understood certain techniques hanon's notes became a fairly practical way to push a "feel" through a variety of configurations.. ofcourse, bach motifs aren't bad either and sound way better.

Still, these days I frequently work on a piece, and i'm forced to develop a certain technical skill level in order to execute it well, and then I reinforce that with some bits of hanon.

Thing is, without the rep I had no reason to play hanon's notes in a given way, so I'd never have found the technique using hanon alone. But I may also have take far longer to develop certain techniques without using note configurations like hanon's to broaden the use of the movement.

[j_menz]

Depends.

Welcome back, you've been missed. 

Oh, and the dust has been building up, so get to work.

[chopin2015]

The point is, they are just collections of notes to save your having to think what to play when warming up. It doesn't matter what the heck kind of exercise you work on. Whatever it is, do it slow and even, reinforcing good habits and focusing on how it feels and sounds.

[cabbynum]

I open up old Hannon occasionally. I do a few exercises usually no more than 8 and I do each at slow medium and fast. My technique has improved but I can't tell if it's from that or from the pieces I'm learning. I also make up exercises based on difficulties I have. In Beethoven op.57 on the first fast run I did that run a lot but didn't get the sound I wanted not the notes accented I wanted accented so I made up an exercise that had the same technique to it and I did it tons.
Point is, if you have a good foundation you can generally figure out most difficulties. I believe that's what Hoffman did...
I was gonna learn the first Chopin ballade but decided not too after I realized just how over played it was. In order to get the coda at full tempo I did a broken chords like in the coda all up and down the piano in both hands.

Also don't piss your teacher off this early in the year.
Ask for a new one next semester.

[drazh]

Does this work?

My teacher is making me do this. 

The same with scales.

If that is  your teacher way to teach  technic  follow him/her. if you trust him.dont fight with your teacher.Changing your teacher method only delays your progress in my experience.

[tdawe]

You are doing your teacher a disservice by not trusting them and following their advice. You'll find it hard to improve if you're constantly questioning everything they ask you to do. I'm not going to debate the merits of Hanon, perhaps you should discuss them with your teacher. I have to say though, I don't find the arguments of faulty_damper particularly convincing - just because something is boring, doesn't mean it is useless, in fact this is often quite the opposite. His extremely confrontational tone and unwillingness to compromise is also rather off putting...

[chopin2015]

Look up some new methods. read a little about hand anatomy, then try to discuss this with your teacher. Technique is pretty much based on adjusting your reactions and habits to playing the piano in a way that feels good and is stress free. I like Cortot method. I love what my professor teaches. Professors know all the great pianists, so their methods are like all the past methods, combined. Although, hanon is a set of rules. you really need to interpret the rules in a way that is efficient and widely applicable in your playing...Ask your teacher to tell you and show you how to work through the hanon in a way where you learn what he wants you to learn. or ask him why you are supposed to do this. is this for a long-term effect? yadayayayayyada

[falala]

That is fascinating, I did not realise that many had injured themselves.

That's because he made it up.

[pianoplayer002]

Not really. The number of pianists who injure themselves is depressingly high. It is enough to have a few bad habits to easily overstrain yourself.

[dima_76557]

Not really. The number of pianists who injure themselves is depressingly high. It is enough to have a few bad habits to easily overstrain yourself.

What have poor Mr. Hanon and his exercises to do with this? Pianists who hurt themselves while practising at the piano would have hurt themselves with ANY repertoire anyway.
P.S.: The many pianists who constantly push down on passive fingers (mind you: the majority!) are much more likely to hurt themselves than those who follow Hanon's instruction exactly as written. Hanon does NOT require his exercises to be practised forcefully. "Strike the key distinctly" are his words.

[chopin2015]

"Strike the key distinctly" are his words.

I think it is really important to just bare your arms and observe which muscles are most helpful in allowing for smooth transition between the fingers...you can do so by changing the angle of the wrist and observing if this at all activates your shoulder muscles and upper arm muscles, or are you intently sliding your finger up and down according to where the joints in the fingers are...

this is a very difficult thing to learn, and has been the greatest challenge in my life. my hands do have a mind of their own which I need to learn to understand. Or something like that.

Dima?

[dima_76557]

[...]

this is a very difficult thing to learn, and has been the greatest challenge in my life. my hands do have a mind of their own which I need to learn to understand. Or something like that.

That's right. Playing the piano is first of all a NEUROLOGICAL challenge, and not training of whatever methodists consider to be the "right" muscles. Hanon is often unrightfully blamed for RSI in piano playing, but computer usage, mouse-clicking, telephone messaging etc. cause just as much (if not more) RSI, carpal tunnel problems, etc. I think this happens because nobody really gets qualified training in coordinating the movements necessary to carry out those rather unnatural tasks. The result is tension everywhere: neck, shoulders, elbows, wrists, etc. No wonder the system gives a power outage if this unlucky state of affairs happens too long and too intensively. All one needs to move a key on our modern piano is a light swing from the knuckle into the key but with the right timing towards the point of sound. Nothing that could ever "hurt" anyone.

[thalbergmad]

What have poor Mr. Hanon and his exercises to do with this? Pianists who hurt themselves while practising at the piano would have hurt themselves with ANY repertoire anyway.

Thank the Lord for some common sense here.

It seems sometimes that the anti brigade think hundreds of pianists are having to pick their noses with their elbows, because their hands have been crippled beyond repair from playing Hanon.

Thal

[chopin2015]

So, to me... the term "no pain, no gain" is really true when pain refers to the sensation of increased frustration due to slow, ongoing process of building the proper physique and preparing the mind to  readily complete any pianistic task at hand, without delaying the final product (otherwise causing physical trauma).

[dima_76557]

So, to me... the term "no pain, no gain" is really true when pain refers to the sensation of increased frustration due to slow, ongoing process of building the proper physique and preparing the mind to  readily complete any pianistic task at hand, without delaying the final product (otherwise causing physical trauma).

Yes. Patience (in the sense of long spiritual suffering) is the key before you can reap the reward of true virtuosity. Slow and disciplined work in accordance with a few very simple principles, and waiting for the results to come. Any "methods" that try to bypass this process and promise you gold mountains in an effortless way will ultimately lead into nowhere artistically. Nobody has to "hurt" themselves at the instrument. If they do, it is because they were trying to take forbidden shortcuts in an attempt to force "speed", force "strength", etc.

[chopin2015]

Yes. Patience (in the sense of long spiritual suffering) is the key before you can reap the reward of true virtuosity. Slow and disciplined work in accordance with a few very simple principles, and waiting for the results to come. Any "methods" that try to bypass this process and promise you gold mountains in an effortless way will ultimately lead into nowhere artistically. Nobody has to "hurt" themselves at the instrument. If they do, it is because they were trying to take forbidden shortcuts in an attempt to force "speed", force "strength", etc.

I completely agree. Also, practice can become addicting. The mind can push the body a bit too far, it plays tricks on you and you are unable to really understand. I put the computer away, now.

[chopin2015]

Can you tell me more about passive fingers?

also, what technique is he using, by lifting his wrist so high?

[dima_76557]

Can you tell me more about passive fingers?

Those are fingers that are simply used as sticks to transmit "power"/"weight" from the more stupid muscles higher up. They are not active, they are not alive, and the playing, although full of artificial "feeling", lacks a certain "aural intelligence", "articulation", "voicing", "orchestration", "focus". Not a technique great pianists would use, because after one concert like that, they would simply be out of business.

also, what technique is he using, by lifting his wrist so high?

I have no idea if that is even an "official" technique. Cziffra simply does what he thinks is necessary to play that passage of that piece, apparently adapting his range of movement to the size of his hands. Since his basics are OK, he can get away with that. Somebody with fewer abilities and without the necessary basics had better avoid doing it because they will hurt themselves without a doubt.