The meaning of Chopin's "Funeral March" sonata?

[awesom_o]

Show us your playing or admit that you play with stiff, clumsy hands!

[j_menz]

No need to get personal. There's nothing wrong with my education. We may be interpreting Voltaire (and historical events as a whole) differently because we have a very different background.

I only meant your history of science education, not more generally.  The relationship between science and religion has not always been a happy one, but it is a great deal more intertwined than you might expect. The superficial history tends to highlight the conflict, but the reality is much more complex.

[dima_76557]

I only meant your history of science education, not more generally.  The relationship between science and religion has not always been a happy one, but it is a great deal more intertwined than you might expect. The superficial history tends to highlight the conflict, but the reality is much more complex.

Ah, OK. I apologise for misinterpreting what you wanted to say.

My remark about "science" as "objectivity", "evidence", "sources", etc. that is always claimed to lead to correct conclusions was meant to illustrate the following.

When we open a Testament of a beloved deceased person, we don't check for grammar, we don't check for spelling and punctuation, we don't check for beauty of word choice. If our heart is in the right place, we are also happy for those who get their share. BUT... The most important thing is that "between the lines", we want to catch the intention, the spirituality with which that Testament was written to see how well it corresponds with our impression of the person we knew.

That is the obligation we musicians have whenever we open the sheetmusic by this or that composer. It is no surprise to me that Chopin's spiritual brethren in the East never quarreled about how valuable and structurally correct this sonata was; they read between the lines, immediately recognized the spiritual content, and established a tradition of magnificent performances.

No way can anyone make anything of value out of this sonata without recognizing the elements that hold it together. As a professional or an aspiring professional, you can't do whatever you please with a Work of Art. And as I said before, even if one element holds everything together, there is still enormous room for freedom to make listening to yet another performance worthwhile.

[roncesvalles]

Faulty Damper,

I don't really have an opinion on this opus one way or another.  I've heard the Marche Funebre one too many times.   Is the problem you have with this opus one of genre?  You've mentioned multiple times that the last movement is a toccata.   Maybe the problem is one of generic descriptors--that the use of "sonata" for this work seems to mean a different thing than when other composers have used the title, and that the material doesn't seem to be interconnected, related like the material of most sonatas, at least on a surface, obvious level.   

I've had this issue listening to some modernist music.  Mosolov's Nocturnes, for example, harsh and rhythmically slippery, don't feel to me like nocturnes, what without hypnotic accompaniment, legato melodies, etc.  I can like the music, but, with the title, it's like seeing a cat with an id tag reading "Rufus"--there just seems to be a contradiction that's hard to see past, and that can shade the way I listen.  Generic titles are a way to give information about a work, but sometimes they can work against a piece.

Maybe if you approach it as more of a 4 piece suite you'll be able to find more redeeming qualities in it, without having to gauge it with the weight of more substantial sonatas.   The march is catchy.  The "toccata" gave me chills when I first heard it, as an adolescent.  If it's something you are planning on playing, maybe the route for you to go isn't to play it as one big tapestry but as a quadriptych, four scenes.   

[faulty_damper]

I'm not viewing this piece based on the form of "sonata".  I'm viewing it only on its musical merits which I don't think it has many redeeming qualities as a whole.  Definitely, the funeral march can be played on its own, but the other movements need context.  The last movement would sound unprepared if played this way and does feel like it's part of a larger suite, like you mentioned.  But it doesn't sound like a suite, either.  I can appreciate that the first two movements are connected, but the musical ideas don't have much weight in them.  Ideas are shown and tossed away because they aren't fully developed.

About the 4th movement, there really should have been some kind of reprieve from the octaves, something to help form a coda to let the listener reminisce about, to sum up the ideas in the previous movements.  This can also help develop those tossed away ideas.  This would probably give the whole work more weight than it does in its current state.

[cometear]

I'm not viewing this piece based on the form of "sonata".  I'm viewing it only on its musical merits which I don't think it has many redeeming qualities as a whole.  Definitely, the funeral march can be played on its own, but the other movements need context.  The last movement would sound unprepared if played this way and does feel like it's part of a larger suite, like you mentioned.  But it doesn't sound like a suite, either.  I can appreciate that the first two movements are connected, but the musical ideas don't have much weight in them.  Ideas are shown and tossed away because they aren't fully developed.

About the 4th movement, there really should have been some kind of reprieve from the octaves, something to help form a coda to let the listener reminisce about, to sum up the ideas in the previous movements.  This can also help develop those tossed away ideas.  This would probably give the whole work more weight than it does in its current state.

Could it be possible Chopin wanted to leave us hanging? I just realized it.

[j_menz]

When we open a Testament of a beloved deceased person, we don't check for grammar, we don't check for spelling and punctuation, we don't check for beauty of word choice.

I do. I'd have to hand back my Pedant League membership if I didn't.