Bach Invention #7 in E Minor

[ebissell]

Hello!

I have spent much time on this wonderful forum learning many valuable and useful things about the piano which I have begun to apply to my practice (I am an adult beginner, and have been playing for a little over a year.) I am working through the Bach Inventions, all of which I love, through the pedogogical order of difficutly of Bach, as described on this website. I am currently working on #7, one of my favorites, and I am stuck in measure #16, and hoping for some help.

In measure sixteen the run of notes EFAD# occurs starting in the third beat. I have been using the fingering 1235 for this, but find that I often miss the D# or strike it weakly (it should really ring out, as the top note of the phrase). Because I have to strike the A with the third finger, it is very hard to read the D# with the pinky.  I looked for videos of people playing this peace on Youtube. The only one where I could see the fingers is by one Cory Hall, who just plays D instead of D#! I suppose that's one way to solve the problem. So I ask, is there a better fingering for this? My edition (Schirmer) does not give any hints. Or is there some trick that must be employed (rotation of the forearm, playing the A very close to the backboard, something?) in order to make this note feasable and sound good? Many thanks for your help,

-ebissell

[lorcar]

I am an adult beginner, and have been playing for a little over a year
-ebissell

ebissel
i dont want to train wreck your thread, but as an adult beginner, may I ask you to share some tips and suggestions which with hindsight you feel have helped you the most? how long do you practice everyday?

I am asking this because I am 38 and started a bit over a year as well (but had practiced as kid) and dont even dream about JSB Invention 7
I feel there is some problem in my method, in the repetition and the way to overcome these problems. Everytime a new piece looks like a giant hurdle to me,  I printed out invention 13 (supposed to be one of the easiest) and the third measure stopped me for a while, untile I got those micro-small hand adjustments right

[j_menz]

Two options. Use the thumb on the A going up (not back down). May be awkward. Or, use 4 on the D#.

[kalirren]

I disagree with j_menz.  The fingering 1-2-3-5 should be best.

Can you comfortably play a chord F#-A-D# with the fingering 2-3-5?  If you can, then take note of the position of your hand and wrist as you play that chord.  The run E-F#-A-D# should be easier than this chord, if you aim for that final position over the entire run. Don't let your wrist get too comfortable when you play the F#-E-F#-A - you need to be moving your wrist into position to play the D# with integrity when you're still playing E, then the F# and then the A.

For what it's worth, because 2 and 5 on F# and D# are on black keys, I end up pushing the A with the 3rd finger pretty far in, about 1/3rd of the way from the fallboard to the end of the key.

[indianajo]

The Busoni Edition of Bach 2 part inventions, schirmer #1512, #7,  has f#, e, f#, e, d, a, in measure 16.  It shows 1-2-blank-blank-3 which I think I would do as 1-2-3-5-3. I don't have any trouble stretching from a to d between 3 and 5, and I have small hands and am age 63.  Perhaps you need to do some Edna Mae Berman exercises to stretch your hands out without pain.
So anyway Busoni thinks it is a d natural, not d#.  I could probably do a-d# between 3 & 5 if I wanted to, legato too. 

[kalirren]

Ah, so that's where the D natural comes from.  My Dover Bach-Gesellschaft shows D#.

[j_menz]

I disagree with j_menz.  The fingering 1-2-3-5 should be best.

It may depend on the relative length of your fingers. I have a relatively long 4th, and so using it on the D# here saves me having to play the A so deep into the keys.

[outin]

ebissel
i dont want to train wreck your thread, but as an adult beginner, may I ask you to share some tips and suggestions which with hindsight you feel have helped you the most? how long do you practice everyday?

I am asking this because I am 38 and started a bit over a year as well (but had practiced as kid) and dont even dream about JSB Invention 7
I feel there is some problem in my method, in the repetition and the way to overcome these problems. Everytime a new piece looks like a giant hurdle to me,  I printed out invention 13 (supposed to be one of the easiest) and the third measure stopped me for a while, untile I got those micro-small hand adjustments right

A bit off topic, but something that I've noticed about the inventions: Some people (even relative beginners) seem to be able to learn to play the notes in a reasonable tempo pretty easily, while for me it's extremely difficult. With my teacher we've discussed this and it's partly a matter of hand shape and finger length. The difficulty seems to expand when you need continuous arm and hand movements and go deep into the black key area to be able to play the notes in the  instead of just using your fingers and occasionally move the hand. It's really hard to understand how some people can actually enjoy playing Bach, but maybe if one had more compatible hands ?

[lorcar]

outin
i do adore bach, and I wouldnt mind playing jsb only!

Those micro adjustments of hands and fingers are hard for me, because if i dont use my eyes I might end on the wrong key.  SO I guess it's just a matter of learning to use both hand and eyes, at least for me

[ebissell]

Many thanks for all of these helpful responses! I will report back later this evening after my practice session. I suspect that the problem lies with the third finger, which I have been curling back to avoid having to play between the black keys. I think the best plan will be to attempt to make playing with the third finger between the black notes comfortable. I'll give 1234 a shot as well.

Re: Lorcar: In truth, I am not a complete beginner as an adult. I had lessons in childhood, though I had no motivation and never practiced, so I never progessed beyond the most rudimentary exercises. I returned to the piano last September (2012), and it was back to the C-Major scale and Beyer exercise #1. After about nine months my teacher gave me the C-Major Invention, and I stumbled across this forum and Bernhard's lengthy discussion of that invention and how to practice it. I read many of his posts and implemented his practice regiment fairly dogmatically (to practice pieces in tiny segments that can be mastered in less than 20 minutes, learn the whole piece HS first, and then combine in tiny segments). I usually practice two hours a day, which gives me time for five of these 20 minute sessions. This approach has enabled me to attain results that I am very happy with; since the beginning of September, I have learned Bach Inventions 1, 4 and 8, with 7 almost complete (except for the problem spot mentioned here and the LH trills, which I may be back with some questions about), Scarlatti K32, K34 and K40, and the Fröhliche Landmann from Schumann's Album for the Young. I've just started in on Beethoven 49.2. I keep detailed records, so I can tell you, for instance, that it took 61 of these 20 minute practice sessions to learn Invention 8, so about 20 hours. 7 will take 55 to play the notes, but then I anticipate spending another 20 sessions or so working on the musicality and those terrifying (for me) trills. Hope that this is helpful.

-ebissell

[indianajo]

Yeah, OutIN,  I have slight little ladyfingers that go right in between the black keys without thinking. I took to JSB inventions like a duck to water age 10.   I've often wondered why the fingering I use and the fingering in certain editions are so different.  I just played JSB 2 part Inv #8 which I rip off most nights, and finger 3 is poking right in between two black keys a lot of times.  No thinking or looking, it just happens.
The downside of this is that playing a grand, really tires me out.  The Sohmer & Baldwin grands i've had access to were a lot heavier touch than my console pianos.  The Steinway studio I didn't buy when I bought my Sohmer console, was that heavy, too.  
Oh, BTW, I'm a guy.  I have a very light frame, and was thrilled when the coaches pulled me out of gym class in the 6, 7, 8th grade.  A good round of dodge ball might have broken my sternum, or at least some ribs.  On the plus side, I could run 6-7 miles In July in combat boots in the Army without overheating, and can still walk 27 miles in 6 hours age 63. I'm built to run down deer or elk to exhaustion in the Appalachian mountains, not plant cotton, tie up sails on ships, or plow fields.  

[outin]

Yeah, OutIN,  I have slight little ladyfingers that go right in between the black keys without thinking. I took to JSB inventions like a duck to water age 10.   I've often wondered why the fingering I use and the fingering in certain editions are so different.  I just played JSB 2 part Inv #8 which I rip off most nights, and finger 3 is poking right in between two black keys a lot of times.  No thinking or looking, it just happens.
The downside of this is that playing a grand, really tires me out.  The Sohmer & Baldwin grands i've had access to were a lot heavier touch than my console pianos.  The Steinway studio I didn't buy when I bought my Sohmer console, was that heavy, too. 
 

I find grands easier to play than my own piano. I have long thin hands and long spider fingers with floppy joints that like to turn over...and a thumb that cannot stay straight when opened so cannot often reach without forcing the 3 long fingers almost to the fallboard. That's quite heavy duty for the poor fingers on an upright and slows the playing down.

I guess some composers just suit you better than others...whenever I play Scarlatti, no matter what the piece it feels like it's written for my hands, but with Bach it's quite the opposite.

[ebissell]

Thanks again for the helpful replies! I found that indeed the problem was with the third finger; I was playing it either with the third finger too far away from the fallboard, or, when I extended it, I was playing from the middle joint, which produces a terribly weak sound. It will take me some practicing to correct though, because my middle finger is broad enough that it needs to be perfectly straight and aligned with the hand to avoid pressing the black notes on either side. But it does make hitting that important D# much much easier. Many thanks for the useful advice!

-ebissell

[lorcar]

Re: Lorcar:
I stumbled across this forum and Bernhard's lengthy discussion of that invention and how to practice it.

thanks a lot

does any of you have still the link to that discussion?

[ebissell]

Of Course!

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2714.0.html

[gore234]

here is a video on youtube

[ebissell]

Many thanks for this video! Although, the pianist here also plays D natural. Now I'm starting to doubt Schirmer's D Sharp given the bile poured out against that publishing house here and elsewhere. Does anyone happen to know anything about the origin of this, or other such textual problems?

[outin]

Many thanks for this video! Although, the pianist here also plays D natural. Now I'm starting to doubt Schirmer's D Sharp given the bile poured out against that publishing house here and elsewhere. Does anyone happen to know anything about the origin of this, or other such textual problems?

I have 2 urtext editions, Henle and Wiener Urtext. Henle has nothing on that D, but WU has a complementary natural. Nothing on the critical notes about this measure. Could it be that someone just misread the natural for a sharp?