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Topic: Classical piano music video  (Read 4445 times)

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #50 on: December 18, 2013, 06:45:41 AM
How do you feel about piano trancriptions of operas or orchestral music then? Certainly the composer did not intend his ideas for voice or another instrument to be reduced to the limited means of a piano? Yet this crime was regularly committed by the 19th century composers.

Transcriptions, improvisations of all kinds in different styles, etc. are OK as long as they are labeled as such, since the intention of the new author is clearly defined. Performance of the original, though, is morally bound by what it was intended for, because even if the commercial rights were sold and expired, it will always stay the intellectual property of the creator.
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Offline ale_ius

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #51 on: December 18, 2013, 11:28:12 AM
This is a great video, I like the light effects in the background also if anyone can shed  light on the question posed that would be awesome!

Thank you.  Alee Marie.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=53635.0

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #52 on: December 18, 2013, 03:49:10 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579296#msg579296 date=1387337054

Before the author of this clip, I would make a case for getting to know the composer better through his other output before abusing any of his works in a way that is not appropriate. The moment you get to know most of his works, you develop a certain intuition, and you will be able to tell at a glance what he meant (as with a very close friend) and for what you can and can't do with his works: List of compositions by Sergei Rachmaninoff
Mister Ogorodnikov, I am not the author of this video, but I wonder who gave you the right to make assumptions about people whom you do not know? For instance, why do you think that the authors of the clip are not familiar with works by Rachmaninoff and do not have sufficient intuition to decide on proper interpretation of the piece?  Who appointed you to be the main decider of what is appropriate, and what is not? Definitely not Rachmaninoff, even though you have impudence to claim to be his friend! As they say, who needs enemies with friends like this?

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #53 on: December 18, 2013, 04:08:19 PM
@ levdeych

This particular piece of music as it is should not be dumbed down to please the masses. That's exactly what this clip is doing. It distracts from the elements that give the piece its appeal with images that are not related, and besides, the author gravely misunderstood the function of the B part in this Elegy. He can therefore not be very well acquainted at all with Rachmaninoff's output.

P.S.1: What's wrong with standing up for what a person believes in? The more so since we have a longstanding tradition here in Russia of how to play works by that composer. How can we *not* know what it is about?

P.S.2: I explained the context for the word "friend" (understanding at a glance what a composer means when you know his entire output really well). You probably missed that, because you are the first person in my whole life to call what I say/write "impudence". On the contrary, I have the greatest possible respect for that composer.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #54 on: December 18, 2013, 05:58:36 PM
I want to express  my appreciation of this clip. “Elegia” has been played by many famous pianists, and one can find its many interpretations on youTube. It happened that I did not like those which were too “gloomy” with overpowering dramatics. So naturally, when the music started I already got the idea, but I was intrigued  by the visual story and did not turn it off.  At the moment when the pianist raises his hand to rich to his baseball  hat, I was rewarded   by new emotions and new understanding of “Elegia”.  The clip was telling me that while the music can exist just by itself, we still need a musician to be touched by it. Can you recognize a musician just by looking at him?  Music recognizes him first, despite of his jeans, a t-shirt, and a baseball hat. Suddenly "Elegia” tells a story  of someone who came, was recognized and gone, but never lost. I listened again through the clip and it was there in music, however without video I would fail to hear it. Thanks for this experience, because even at the concert I usually close me eyes  to absorb the sound better.
@Mister Ogorodnikov. Here are the words of a listener, not a professional pianist, to whom this video opened a new meaning and new appreciation for "Elegie", helped him/her to overcome some pre-existing notions. But for you this person is probably just a representative of "dumb masses", with no rights to have an opinion, right?
@taler: Thank you for your very emotional response to the video and a fresh interpretation of the visuals in it.

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #55 on: December 18, 2013, 06:08:31 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579352#msg579352 date=1387382899
@ levdeych

This particular piece of music as it is should not be dumbed down to please the masses. That's exactly what this clip is doing. It distracts from the elements that give the piece its appeal with images that are not related, and besides, the author gravely misunderstood the function of the B part in this Elegy. He can therefore not be very well acquainted at all with Rachmaninoff's output.

P.S.1: What's wrong with standing up for what a person believes in? The more so since we have a longstanding tradition here in Russia of how to play works by that composer. How can we *not* know what it is about?


I am not going to discuss your opinion about part B of the Elegie, simply because it is sheer nonsense. But I do want to respond to your P.S. 1. Everybody has a right to express an opinion and stand to what one believes in. What no one has rights to do is to claim that one's opinion is the absolute truth and discard alternative opinions. Speaking about Russian traditions of playing this piece, I can give you a piece of advice. Look up performances of Elegie by Achkenazi, Gavrilov, Lankova, which all are very different. Which one represents the Russian tradition you are talking about? But I think that your post represent a different Russian tradition - the one of totalitarian thinking.

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #56 on: December 18, 2013, 06:52:27 PM
@ levdeych

I am afraid you are misinterpreting my message and quite aggressively so: some pieces should just not be touched for video projects because they contain enough to speak for themselves. If video clips are deemed required, they should be chosen with good taste and consideration for what the contents really represent because visuals tend to overpower audio as it is. This is not Rachmaninoff's "ghost song". I cannot imagine that Sergey's teacher, the renowned professor Nina Svetlanova, would ever give her blessing to such a reading. Whatever good taste has to do with totalitarian thinking beats me.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline eric0773

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #57 on: December 18, 2013, 07:56:59 PM
Dima,

Like you, I am not found of clips that tie a great piece to a particular visual representation, because the visual representation sometimes does not go away in your memory when you listen to the music again afterwards. This is why I did not watch the movie "The Pianist", as good as people say it is, or also why I hate Gainsbourg and how he used and degraded several of Chopin's pieces (cannot un-remember that, as much as I would like to).

However, as long as the visual representation is not particularly shocking, strong or memorable in any way (and the clip shown here really is not), it has the valuable benefit of introducing newcomers to composers they would not know otherwise. If one viewer out of ten feels compelled to know more about Rachmaninoff, that is already a good thing. We all had to start somewhere :-)

Cheers.

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #58 on: December 18, 2013, 08:14:22 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579364#msg579364 date=1387392747
@ levdeych

I am afraid you are misinterpreting my message and quite aggressively so: some pieces should just not be touched for video projects because they contain enough to speak for themselves. If video clips are deemed required, they should be chosen with good taste and consideration for what the contents really represent because visuals tend to overpower audio as it is. This is not Rachmaninoff's "ghost song". I cannot imagine that Sergey's teacher, the renowned professor Nina Svetlanova, would ever give her blessing to such a reading. Whatever good taste has to do with totalitarian thinking beats me.
Good taste has nothing to do with totalitarian thinking, but insistence that you are the only one having good taste definitely does.   As far as M-m Svetlanova is concerned, I cannot talk for her, but from what I heard she liked the video, and definitely had no problems with interpretation of part B of Elegie.

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #59 on: December 18, 2013, 08:30:06 PM
Good taste has nothing to do with totalitarian thinking, but insistence that you are the only one having good taste definitely does.
Don't you think that's a bit of an exaggerated version of what I actually said? I have played this piece 4 times "live" and it was 4 times on different funerals upon request. The video clips are available, but I won't show them because they're simply too heart-breaking, too shocking. I hope you can at least understand that it works the other way around; what the author thinks it is may not be it. You have had support for your clip by all the others here and I am virtually the only who went against the clip for the reasons I stated. No need to take it so personally because my intentions are actually positive: good music above all, but not just anything goes as a way to introduce people to that music.

As far as M-m Svetlanova is concerned, I cannot talk for her, but from what I heard she liked the video, and definitely had no problems with interpretation of part B of Elegie.

I am not talking about Sergei's musical interpretation on the piano, by the way. I am talking about the wording of the "story" and the associated video images. This doesn't match from both the audio and video points of view, but let's just decide that that is my personal problem.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #60 on: December 18, 2013, 08:45:36 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579373#msg579373 date=1387398606
Don't you think that's a bit of an exaggerated version of what I actually said? I have played this piece 4 times "live" and it was 4 times on different funerals upon request. The clips are available, but I won't show them because they're simply too heart-breaking, too shocking.
I see that you have very powerful personal history behind this piece, which makes it very hard for you to see possible alternatives. This I can understand and respect. Still, I expect people with opposite views to at least acknowledge that their views are based on their personal history, and not to present them as "absolute truths". I am sorry, that this is how your posts came across. I do not mind anyone not liking things that I like and disagreeing with me, this is normal. But I do have low tolerance level for people attacking personal and professional integrity of their opponents. 

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #61 on: December 18, 2013, 11:30:53 PM
I usually listen to music with my eyes closed (unless I am driving), so this was an experience for me. Music always paints pictures in my mind, but it is equally pleasing to have those pictures painted for you by way of video.

I loved what you have done and look forward to seeing/hearing more of your work.

Thal

Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #62 on: December 19, 2013, 12:34:32 AM
I usually listen to music with my eyes closed (unless I am driving), so this was an experience for me. Music always paints pictures in my mind, but it is equally pleasing to have those pictures painted for you by way of video.

I loved what you have done and look forward to seeing/hearing more of your work.

Thal


My role in producing this video was quite limited, but thank you for the kind words, which I will pass on to the actual authors. On a more general note, it is indeed not easy to make a good music video based on classical pieces. The music sets such a high level that it is quite challenging to match it visually in a meaningful way. I think this is why there aren't  many good classical music videos around, and this is why I am proud of what was accomplished in this presentation of Elegie.

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #63 on: December 19, 2013, 04:29:23 AM
I see that you have very powerful personal history behind this piece, which makes it very hard for you to see possible alternatives. This I can understand and respect. Still, I expect people with opposite views to at least acknowledge that their views are based on their personal history, and not to present them as "absolute truths". I am sorry, that this is how your posts came across. I do not mind anyone not liking things that I like and disagreeing with me, this is normal. But I do have low tolerance level for people attacking personal and professional integrity of their opponents.

Thank you for your balanced reply. I still have doubts that have nothing to do with my personal experience/taste and that are intended to support Sergei in his aspirations. Three questions to start with:
1) Who exactly is the target group?
2) Is the only goal of this clip to popularize this music among people that don't know it?
3) Did this video clip (+ storyline) pass an independent director's judgement?
(Respectfully submitted).
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #64 on: December 19, 2013, 04:36:34 AM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579399#msg579399 date=1387427363
I still have doubts that have nothing to do with my personal experience/taste and that are intended to support Sergey in his aspirations.

Sergei, being long dead, stopped aspiring some time ago, and never needed or sought your support in any case.

Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579399#msg579399 date=1387427363
Three questions to start with:
1) Who exactly is the target group?
2) Is the only goal of this clip to popularize this music among people that don't know it?
3) Did this video clip (+ storyline) pass an independent director's judgement?
(Respectfully submitted).

What do you care. You are clearly not part of 1).

I know you feel a special affinity of Rachmaninoff generally, and this piece in particular, but you do not own it. It needs no protector.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #65 on: December 19, 2013, 04:39:42 AM
Sergei, being long dead, stopped aspiring some time ago, and never needed or sought your support in any case.

The pianist in the clip is the Sergei I am referring to.

What do you care. You are clearly not part of 1).

I know you feel a special affinity of Rachmaninoff generally, and this piece in particular, but you do not own it. It needs no protector.

Sergei, the pianist in the clip, may also be interested in career planning and in the opinion of professionals who may come across this clip. Therefore, and since this is essentially an artistic undertaking, my post has other purposes.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #66 on: December 19, 2013, 04:42:43 AM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579401#msg579401 date=1387427982
The pianist in the clip is the Sergei I am referring to.

Then I have misunderstood, and retract.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #67 on: December 19, 2013, 01:25:48 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579399#msg579399 date=1387427363
Thank you for your balanced reply. I still have doubts that have nothing to do with my personal experience/taste and that are intended to support Sergei in his aspirations. Three questions to start with:
1) Who exactly is the target group?
2) Is the only goal of this clip to popularize this music among people that don't know it?
3) Did this video clip (+ storyline) pass an independent director's judgement?
(Respectfully submitted).
I begin with the last question, which I, however, do not quite understand. What do you mean by independent director? The pianist in the clip did not direct and shoot the clip, he just, if I may say, "starred" in it and provided his recording of the piece. The "story" line, directing, cinematography, has been done by a different person. Does it qualify as an independent director's judgement?
First and second questions are kind of convoluted, so I address them together. The rationale behind this project was to try something new in presentation of classical music with the one of the goals, yes, to reach out to new audience, which would not normally listen to classical music. So called MTV generation has grown on videos presenting pop music in a very dynamic visually engaging way. If classical musicians refuse to address needs and habits of the new generations of potential listeners, classical music will disappear as a vital cultural force, which would be a tragedy. Some people involved in classical music do realize it, and trying to do something about it. But to do so without sacrificing the high meaning and nature of classical music is not an easy task. This video is an experiment, a first attempt, by two young people to attract their peers to the genre.

Of course, the authors of the project are also interested in exploring alternative ways of career development, and they are hoping to attract attention of professionals, but this goal is subordinated and actually dependent on the first one. As example of Valentina Lisitsa shows, if someone is capable to cultivate sufficient fan base, everybody pays attention. Also, from the career development point of view, if this project will play a role in it, it will affect mostly the cinematographer rather than the pianist (unless, of course, they form a stable team and pull each other together).

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #68 on: December 19, 2013, 02:48:15 PM
I begin with the last question, which I, however, do not quite understand. What do you mean by independent director? The pianist in the clip did not direct and shoot the clip, he just, if I may say, "starred" in it and provided his recording of the piece. The "story" line, directing, cinematography, has been done by a different person. Does it qualify as an independent director's judgement?

The "problem" with that person is that he/she knew the storyline, so he/she can read between his/her own lines with the assumptions in the back of his/her head. I would be very interested to know whether an independent director (or a very experienced viewer of that kind of clips) can make out what the first part of the clip is about simply in terms of picture associations without getting additional info. I have tried, even with the sound off, but I can't. I may, of course, be too stuck in my "suffering-has-meaning" scenario to accept any movement at all. Besides, I am also not well-versed in the MTV video-clip culture.

Why I asked these questions. While for an MTV audience almost anything may be acceptable as long as it moves, we are dealing here with another genre and I suspect that professionals of all kinds who may come across any video clips of a certain artist X in this format will hold pianist X responsible for the artistic end result, even if somebody else made the clip since pianist X willingly participated and plays the lead role. What we see will be considered pianist X's view, not somebody else's. J_menz repeatedly rubbed my nose in it, so I can accept now that the video and audio lines may perhaps exist independently, but you want to make sure that each separate line of elements is understood on an intuitive level the way you intended to get your artistic message across to even the most critical professional. I hope this makes sense? Am I severely mistaken again? Thank you for your patience.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline outin

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #69 on: December 19, 2013, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579422#msg579422 date=1387464495
The "problem" with that person is that he/she knew the storyline, so he/she can read between his/her own lines with the assumptions in the back of his/her head. I would be very interested to know whether an independent director (or a very experienced viewer of that kind of clips) can make out what the first part of the clip is about simply in terms of picture associations without getting additional info. I have tried, even with the sound off, but I can't. I may, of course, be too stuck in my "suffering-has-meaning" scenario to accept any movement at all. Besides, I am also not well-versed in the MTV video-clip culture.

Why I asked these questions. While for an MTV audience almost anything may be acceptable as long as it moves, we are dealing here with another genre and I suspect that professionals of all kinds who may come across any video clips of a certain artist X in this format will hold pianist X responsible for the artistic end result, even if somebody else made the clip since pianist X willingly participated and plays the lead role. What we see will be considered pianist X's view, not somebody else's. J_menz repeatedly rubbed my nose in it, so I can accept now that the video and audio lines may perhaps exist independently, but you want to make sure that each separate line of elements is understood on an intuitive level the way you intended to get your artistic message across to even the most critical professional. I hope this makes sense? Am I severely mistaken again? Thank you for your patience.

But why should the message be understood like that? Many feel that great art is created not only by the artist but also by the way everyone experiences it (in their own way). The composer may have something in his own mind when composing, but  be quite happy to accept quite different interpretations of the idea of the piece. Actually I,'ve read about composers being quite reluctant to explain their pieces, bur insisted that the listener/performer make their own.

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #70 on: December 19, 2013, 03:55:34 PM
But why should the message be understood like that?

Like what? I think this particular piece is already OK by itself. As soon as you add visuals, you will either have to let them work for themselves logically OR explain them, find excuses to do it that way before an audience that is not part of the uncritical target group.

I already stopped saying that the piece has to be understood like this or that. I am now saying that if the clip is watched by someone out of the uncritical target group, the pianist will be held responsible for the artistic end result of that clip. Let the lines be independent, but they should have an intuitive logic if separately taken. Random music with randomly moving motion pictures will NOT be accepted by an audience that is NOT new to the music. This may, however, very well be a person that may play a role in how the pianist's career will develop. Does it matter if you get a good review? Does it matter if you get a review that sucks? That's for the artist to decide.

Example: There's a clip by Valentina Igoshina of the Chopin Nocturne in C minor. The way she gives horny looks into the camera at the most psychologically unlucky moments in the development of that tragic piece has raised lots of eyebrows. I believe it's her husband who edited it (there's even an apology) but she herself is held responsible. I am surprised to see that she hasn't replaced the video "stimuli" with anything else (the audio is good). Completely beside the point of the piece, and while I used to admire her, she has lost it as a serious artist as far as I am concerned.
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Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #71 on: December 19, 2013, 05:05:01 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579422#msg579422 date=1387464495
The "problem" with that person is that he/she knew the storyline, so he/she can read between his/her own lines with the assumptions in the back of his/her head. I would be very interested to know whether an independent director (or a very experienced viewer of that kind of clips) can make out what the first part of the clip is about simply in terms of picture associations without getting additional info.

Why I asked these questions. While for an MTV audience almost anything may be acceptable as long as it moves, we are dealing here with another genre and I suspect that professionals of all kinds who may come across any video clips of a certain artist X in this format will hold pianist X responsible for the artistic end result, even if somebody else made the clip since pianist X willingly participated and plays the lead role. What we see will be considered pianist X's view, not somebody else's. J_menz repeatedly rubbed my nose in it, so I can accept now that the video and audio lines may perhaps exist independently, but you want to make sure that each separate line of elements is understood on an intuitive level the way you intended to get your artistic message across to even the most critical professional. I hope this makes sense? Am I severely mistaken again? Thank you for your patience.

The interesting thing is that the story line that I described (with the ghost and everything) is not necessarily what the director had in mind. The thing about music is that while you can treat any classical composition as a kind of a story, I do not think it is right for an artist, employing non-musical means,  to impose his interpretation of the story in a too concrete, too explicit form. It limits a broad musical content to someone's too specific a vision. Thus, someone attempting to do this should walk a very thin line between creating a general framework for a story, without which, video does not make much sense, (and you end up showing pianists's hands in all possible ways, which is boring), and turning this framework into a too specific story line, which would have a limiting effect. from my point of view, one of the successes of the video in question (in addition to quite beautiful cinematography), is that the director managed to stay on this very thin line, which is evidenced by the fact that I heard a great deal of different interpretations of the video from different viewers. Other people do not even  try to invent a particulars of the story being content to enjoy the general mood that cinematography creates.    

I agree with you that the musician in a such a video carries the full responsibility for what he/she participates in. This particular video is definitely a collaborative effort between the musician and the director/cinematographer. Did the pianist undermined his credibility by this video? I do not think so. Quite a few highly professional musicians of international repute gave rather high marks to this effort, and they did understand the artistic message, but of course, not any concrete particular story one could invent using this video.  The director of the video actually received offers of collaboration from at least two professional classical pianists.

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #72 on: December 19, 2013, 05:26:41 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579427#msg579427 date=1387468534

Example: There's a clip by Valentina Igoshina of the Chopin Nocturne in C minor. The way she gives horny looks into the camera at the most psychologically unlucky moments in the development of that tragic piece has raised lots of eyebrows. I believe it's her husband who edited it (there's even an apology) but she herself is held responsible. I am surprised to see that she hasn't replaced the video "stimuli" with anything else (the audio is good). Completely beside the point of the piece, and while I used to admire her, she has lost it as a serious artist as far as I am concerned.
I checked out the clip you mention here. It sucks, and not just because of her "dirty looks", it is simply not inventive from cinemtographical point of view. In the absence of the narrative framework they made this video to be about her, and all they could use was her feminine beauty. The probably could do it in a more tasteful way, but this was not, in my view, a main problem with her video.

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #73 on: December 19, 2013, 05:55:23 PM
The thing about music is that while you can treat any classical composition as a kind of a story, I do not think it is right for an artist, employing non-musical means,  to impose his interpretation of the story in a too concrete, too explicit form. It limits a broad musical content to someone's too specific a vision.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Some things should not be said or shown too explicitly.

P.S.: May I ask you what you think of this? Wouldn't this work well for the intended audience?

It's the same Elegie but this time for cello and piano with minimum visual factors. The performer is the (then) 9-grade [16-year old] cello student of the Central Music School here in Moscow, Anastasia Kobekina.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline levdeych

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #74 on: December 19, 2013, 06:03:00 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579438#msg579438 date=1387475723
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Some things should not be said or shown too explicitly.

P.S.: May I ask you what you think of this? Wouldn't this work well for the intended audience?

It's the same Elegie but this time for cello and piano with minimum visual factors. The performer is the (then) 9-grade [15-year old] cello student of the Central Music School here in Moscow, Anastasia Kobekina.
The cello sounds beautifully! Kudos to Anastasia! I liked this performance a lot. The visual effects, however, is a different story A random selection of photographs, no matter how beautiful they are,  does not make a video.

Offline outin

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #75 on: December 19, 2013, 06:24:08 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579427#msg579427 date=1387468534
Like what?

I was referring to:
"make sure that each separate line of elements is understood on an intuitive level the way you intended to get your artistic message across"

But anyway, I just don't feel the way you do about art or moral...And I don't think many people do, so that's why it's hard to understand such strong disapproval of an art work/experiment. It's an example of a fusion of two art forms, intended to create something new. Whether it works well or not is not that relevant to me, it's for everyone to decide themselves.

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #76 on: December 19, 2013, 06:34:18 PM
I was referring to:
"make sure that each separate line of elements is understood on an intuitive level the way you intended to get your artistic message across"

OK. Personally, I am very visual. If I see something that doesn't make sense, I spend energy trying to understand what I see, energy that had better be spent on the audio impulses of this very powerful piece. But as you know from another thread, eyes dominate over ears when they are used together. You then have a choice: either close your eyes and listen or stop actually listening and watch. The last variant is a sin (in the sense of wasted time and energy). It is also a sign that the director has failed in his/her mission: instead of adding something valuable, he/she has taken away the essentials. There must be a perfect balance of all elements for this format to work. Does that make sense?
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline outin

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #77 on: December 19, 2013, 06:54:21 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579443#msg579443 date=1387478058
OK. Personally, I am very visual. If I see something that doesn't make sense, I spend energy trying to understand what I see, energy that had better be spent on the audio impulses of this very powerful piece. But as you know from another thread, eyes dominate over ears when they are used together. You then have a choice: either close your eyes and listen or stop actually listening and watch. The last variant is a sin (in the sense of wasted time and energy). It is also a sign that the director has failed in his mission: instead of adding something valuable, he has taken away the essentials. There must be a perfect balance of all elements for this format to work. Does that make sense?

There's no such thing in my vocabulary as sin, and I certainly don't see anything wrong with choosing only to watch/listen. Why do you say that the director has failed? That's assuming that his mission was to make sense to EVERYONE. Trying to please everyone or make it easy enough to be understood by everyone is a very limiting thing for any artist.

I understand perfectly why you would not enjoy a video like this. Even though I like films, I feel no need to see pictures when I listen to music. I also don't care to add stories to music. I was never much a fan of music videos either. I only like to watch films of the pianist's hands when they play because seeing the actual playing adds something to my listening experience.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with doing something like the above either... I guess you would find it easier to accept a musical film made together with the composer (something like Koyaanisqatsi by Philip Glass) instead of trying to visualize a composition of the past, because it would be very hard to do it in a way that you could approve?

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #78 on: December 19, 2013, 07:01:29 PM
There's no such thing in my vocabulary as sin, and I certainly don't see anything wrong with choosing only to watch/listen. Why do you say that the director has failed?

It's not the terminology. "Sin" is whatever you do that you know you shouldn't have done. It's just a short word to type.

If the aim of the video clip is to better acquaint people with the music of a certain composer, wouldn't you want the audience to actually listen to that music, accompanied with a video that does not distract the attention from the audio? If the intended audience instead starts watching without listening, what is the clip for then? Do we want Classical music to go the same way as most of the "music" in the pop culture; useless background noise?
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline outin

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #79 on: December 19, 2013, 07:22:15 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579446#msg579446 date=1387479689
It's not the terminology. "Sin" is whatever you do that you know you shouldn't have done. It's just a short word to type.

If the aim of the video clip is to better acquaint people with the music of a certain composer, wouldn't you want the audience to actually listen to that music, accompanied with a video that does not distract the attention from the audio? If the intended audience instead starts watching without listening, what is the clip for then? Do we want Classical music to go the same way as most of the "music" in the pop culture; useless background noise?

But how can you assume that other people than you are distracted in the similar way by the video? And if some are, why should the director care? He is creating something and IMO the creation should first reflect his ideas and his inner world, not just anticipate the reaction of the audience. If it also happens to work well in promoting classical music, fine, but I would not value it much if that was the only purpose.

I also don't think of any sounds as "useless background noice", sound is always part of the experience. Sometimes more and sometimes less dominant part. But it isn't in any way sacred or somehow should be valued above any other part of the experiment.

Then again I have never been into listening to music sitting quietly trying to keep everything else out. I listen to music all the time when possible, out in the nature, walking around, in the city... All that creates different experiences connected with music, but the music is never just background music. It was not possible to do that when the music was composed, so there's no way to know whether the composers would have approved  ;)

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #80 on: December 19, 2013, 07:28:25 PM
But how can you assume that other people than you are distracted in the similar way by the video?

I hate to say this, but science has proven that it works that way for virtually everybody. This has to do with building trust (or not) as a defense mechanism against threats. That's what the eyes are for. As soon as the eyes trust what they see, the ears can take over. If you are really really interested, I can try to locate a source (.pdf or something)

And if some are, why should the director care?

That's a business decision in favor of quality others who don't care so much may not provide. You either do something really well, or you don't do it. No in-between in this business. The competition will eat you.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline outin

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #81 on: December 19, 2013, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579453#msg579453 date=1387481305
I hate to say this, but science has proven that it works that way for virtually everybody. This has to do with building trust as a defense mechanism against threats. That's what the eyes are for. As soon as the eyes trust what they see, the ears can take over. If you are really really interested, I can try to locate a source (.pdf or something)

That's a business decision in favor of quality others who don't care so much may not provide. You either do something really well, or you don't do it. No in-between in this business. The competition will eat you.

I'm getting really confused...I thought you were distracted from the music essentially because this specific video representation was "wrong"?  Of course one's attention is divided by many things (which I still see as no bad thing) because of our natural mechanisms, but it will be the same for any video to some extend, good or bad. There's no way to make a video that would be as non-threatening to everyone. And what would be the point in making a video that changes nothing in your listening experience?

And again I read you saying that your judgement of what "doing well" means is the only right one? If you feel that way maybe you should make a career as a critic instead of a performer?

I am not trying to argue or offend, I am just trying to find out why you cannot just say that you did not like the video and it lessened your enjoyment of the music. All this stuff about morals and diminishing the value of classical music sounds really weird coming from a young (?) man. I just cannot believe you would have such a concervative (putting it mildly) view...  ???

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #82 on: December 19, 2013, 07:51:11 PM
I'm getting really confused...I thought you were distracted from the music essentially because this specific video representation was "wrong"?  

Levdeych and I were already in agreement. There's nothing "wrong" in this case except for my personal problem. I just pointed out a possible problem with projects of this type, not with this particular video. Let's just let it rest, OK?
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline outin

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #83 on: December 19, 2013, 08:02:05 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53609.msg579457#msg579457 date=1387482671
Lev and I were already in agreement. There's nothing "wrong" in this case except for my personal problem. I just pointed out a possible problem with projects of this type, not with this particular video. Let's just let it rest, OK?

Yes, we can do that :)

Just please don't worry too much, if the music has substance enough it will survive even the tackiest attempts!

Offline visitor

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Re: Classical piano music video
Reply #84 on: December 22, 2013, 03:16:56 AM
I like it when pianists play.  I like it when pianists compose.  I like pianists in music videos.  I like it when pianists play their own compositions in a music video. :)

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