muscle memory vs REAL learning a piece

[lorcar]

hope all you guys are enjoying the vacation time.

I had 4/6 days far from the piano and last night tried to restart my study again, from the usual easy stuff I had brought to last 2 lessons (Bach'anna magdalena, Heller's etudes).

"If I dont practice for 3 days, my dog will  notice it"...

The result was a disaster: it was like trying to learn again, and all the advantage was related to muscle memory: the hand knows that after that bar there is a sudden jump so it goes immediately in position, and so on, but otherwise it seems like I had ALMOST never played that piece. I am still very attached to the score, and have to read it.

I found this very frustrating in my piano journey, and very "monkish": repeat it daily and it will become good. Stop for few days/weeks and it will be (almost) back to ground zero.

WHen I study, I make sure I can start a piece from every phrase or every bar, so I do read the notes. But I NEVER KNOW the single key I should press without the score, besides muscle memory. I mean, right now I'd be able to sing the motive of all those pieces I have studied, but I'd never be able to tell you which NOTE (C D E etc) is there next. I sing as an amateur in the shower, not as someone who as spent hours and hours on that piece.  I am almost completely lost without the score.

Is this something normal just because I started to play again only a bit more than a year ago, and will go away after 5/10 years? or is it normal? or is it just my method completely wrong and I should change something in my approach?

[awesom_o]

I like to always play from the score, so that I can be sure that I am actually playing the composer's music and not something of my own invention. 

Even when I play music of my own invention, I play it with the score. Unless I am playing extemporaneously.

Playing with the score allows me to maintain a much larger working repertoire than if I were to restrict myself to playing only from memory.

[pianoman53]

Great job awesome_o! You were both able ro sound incredibly pretentious, while not answeing the op's question at all, but about how deep you can sound. Well done!

Back to topic:
I have a friend who can only play from muscle memory. Once she start to learn it mentally, she snaps and can't play at all.
Me, on the other hand, is terrified of knowing only with muscle memory. So everyone is different.

But more generally speaking, there are 3 parts in learning:
  - intellectual: you know the form, what notes to start on, the harmony, etc.
  - muscle memory: you get it by yourself, and you cant really play fast without it.
  - imagination: you know how it sounds, what the piece is about....

Try to embrace all of them in your learning, and experiment with how much of every part you will need.

[awesom_o]

I was perturbed by the OP's description of feeling lost without the score.

I think playing with the score encourages us to use all of our faculties, including, as you have listed, our intellectual knowledge of the music, our musical imagination, etc... rather than playing from memory, which is more dependent upon muscle memory than non-memorized performance. 

[indianajo]

I can't read a score as fast as I can play.  So until I have learned the feel of the piece in the movement areas of the brain, I can't even play two hands together, anything more complicated than two or three notes at a time. 
I really only use the score when the piece is getting up to speed to remind me of what part comes next, not to look at the individual notes.  Moonlight sonata 3rd movement, for example has a lot of themes in subtle variations repeated several times, so I use the score to remind me of which part to play next. 
Once the movements are memorized, you can think about emotions and images and what you want to communicate with the piece.  I accent different lines in the Moonlight 3rd every repetition of a theme for example, to keep from boring myself and the audience and to point out the depth of the beauty of the piece, 3 different beautiful melodies/countermelodies happening at once. 
Once you can think of the piece as an emotional event, you are past "muscle memory".  That is a tool to a goal of music as an art, not a problem to be overcome., IMHO.

[ranniks]

So?

Do you honestly think a concert pianist will be able to play a piece he hasn't seen for ages?

Wait, didn't Horowitz do it?

Nevermind. I take it back.

[liszt85]

Here are some aspects of REAL learning:

1) A complete and thorough analysis of the piece preferably before you even begin working seriously on it. This gets you familiar with the key, harmonic ideas, form of the piece. This gives you elaborate information about why the composition proceeded as it did.

2) Mark the difficult sections with the help of your teacher if you are new to this. If you have the experience, you can do this yourself. Practise the difficult sections first.

3) Learn to play the left hand alone. When you do this, try reciting the chord progression (i.e., harmony). So you now know what the left hand is doing and you know what the harmony is. I did this when I learned a Chopin etude recently, and guess what, that is the piece I have close to zero memory issues with. I can also start at almost any point in the piece. I'm unable to do this with any other piece (because I only recently started doing this right).

4) When you put the hands together, memorize the piece by practising from different starting points, so that you can start playing from any point in the piece.

There are other things you need to do in order to deal with difficult passages that have to do with intelligently breaking down a difficult task into simpler tasks. You need a good teacher to show you how to do these things. I can only tell you that such methods exist and are employed by good pianists.

It is easy to read about all these different tips. The difficult part is the hard work involved. Most people skip 1) above completely either due to laziness or due to insufficient knowledge of theory. If the latter is the case, you should seriously consider teaching yourself theory.

Just a few things you can do differently that will make a HUGE difference.

[pianoplunker]

Back to topic:
I have a friend who can only play from muscle memory. Once she start to learn it mentally, she snaps and can't play at all.
Me, on the other hand, is terrified of knowing only with muscle memory. So everyone is different.

But more generally speaking, there are 3 parts in learning:
  - intellectual: you know the form, what notes to start on, the harmony, etc.
  - muscle memory: you get it by yourself, and you cant really play fast without it.
  - imagination: you know how it sounds, what the piece is about....

Try to embrace all of them in your learning, and experiment with how much of every part you will need.

I agree. It all must be a part of practice. Muscle memory will come naturally for me if I do the other two you describe. I have never sat down to practice or play or even perform relying on muscle memory by itself. The other two things always come into play. Must.

[liszt85]

There is a parallel thread about this on another forum. To summarize that thread: The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
(Bertrand Russell)

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I got you right here...

Learn some theory.  

Every problem with memory you have is SOLVED!
 
Like ACTUALLY though!  If you can do a harmonic and structural analysis of the piece, then you're set.  Don't just play it, study it.

Because instead of just going through the motions (muscle memory), you actually know what the heck you're playing.  Note how I put an emphasis on know...


And muscle memory isn't a bad thing either.  It's just that you don't wanna survive on only muscle memory.  Cause when you get on stage and your nerves get to you, your muscle memory is the first thing to go!

Also another thing that helps is just knowing how the piece sounds in your head.  


Report complete...

#feelingon

[bronnestam]

I have spent decades being the worst memorizer anybody has heard of. I couldn't play ANYTHING from memory (except the theme in Für Elise) which was embarrassing and rather strange, as I'm otherwise have a reputation of having a memory like an elephant.

My mistake? I relied on muscle memory. I thought it was supposed to be that way. But the slightest disturbance when I was playing, and I was out. Lost. Blank. I could not understand this.

Then I got better information on how to work and now I'm slightly doing some progress in this area. Today I use a mixture of different memories when I play. Very fast and difficult sections are of course always muscle memory. For the rest, I like to say I use "beacons". I can tell myself that this section is to end with a basic F Majord chord, fine; then I will not forget. If I get lost, at least I know that I should go to this F chord and then I can pick up the thread again from there ... So it is a way of learning by theory, although I am no master in music theory. I guess you can come pretty far even without knowing it all. Mostly I use visual memory and memorize the pattern on the keyboard. And sometimes I remember certain sections by recalling a photographic picture of the sheet. The more "beacons" I get by knowing theory and by remembering how a certain bar was written, the more confident I get.

So, the whole answer to my problem was that my good memory always has been my intellectual/logical memory, in combination with a good photographic memory, and muscle memory is something else ...

I know I must work in short sections, so I learn one section with these mixed techniques, and then I learn the next ... and in this way it is not that difficult. Just boring. 

Nowadays I also actively train my memory by doing a lot of mental playing in my head. If I can play the whole piece completely in my mind, knowing every keystroke with my imagination, then I know I have memorized it fully.

[swagmaster420x]

I got you right here...

Learn some theory.  

Every problem with memory you have is SOLVED!
 
Like ACTUALLY though!  If you can do a harmonic and structural analysis of the piece, then you're set.  Don't just play it, study it.

Because instead of just going through the motions (muscle memory), you actually know what the heck you're playing.  Note how I put an emphasis on know...


And muscle memory isn't a bad thing either.  It's just that you don't wanna survive on only muscle memory.  Cause when you get on stage and your nerves get to you, your muscle memory is the first thing to go!

Also another thing that helps is just knowing how the piece sounds in your head.  


Report complete...

#feelingon

this is really good and to the point advice

[outin]

I know I must work in short sections, so I learn one section with these mixed techniques, and then I learn the next ... and in this way it is not that difficult. Just boring. 

Exactly...actively memorizing is boring. That's why I have tried everything else I can think of to avoid actively memorizing stuff. I mainly just relied on the type of memorizing that happens gradually without any effort. Unfortunately it just takes too long, I cannot stay with one short piece for months...

I have been telling myself that I'm just unable to memorize by will but I guess that's not exactly true. I have been struggling with a piece which I just cannot play fluently with the score no matter how much I practice. My eyes simply can not handle it. And this is something I really need to learn before the first lesson. So a few days ago I started memorizing by trying to play the sections without the score and only dug it out when I really had to (which was quite often in the beginning) and forced myself to put it away right after checking the spot. And of course it works, after a few days I can almost get through the two pages without stopping.

But it is really boring to do it this way...and boring is probably the worst thing I can think of...damn!

[malcolmdominique]

When I learn a piece and this could be anything from a Bach Prelude and Fugue, to a Beethoven Sonata, or an insane Liszt piece. I learn through a combination of muscle memory and actually knowing what's in the score. I always spend at least 2-3 months preparing a piece for a performance and by that time at any given point in the piece, I can either tell you what the notes are or I can find the notes through muscle memory. Nothing I learn is I guess 100% muscle memory or 100% knowing the score. It's a combination. Not sure if this helps but in other words sometimes when I am performing I am just letting my muscles go and then sometimes I'm thinking about exactly what the score has in it.  I never have a trouble memorizing a piece as long as I don't rush it, as I practice it, it gradually gets "written" into my mind.

[pianoman53]

But how is it boring to memorize?! To make music in your own head is the most amazing thing there is! Sounds that are almost impossible to make at the instrument is a piece of cake in your mind. You only have to think of both notes and sound at the same time. Bot boring at all!

[outin]

But how is it boring to memorize?! To make music in your own head is the most amazing thing there is! Sounds that are almost impossible to make at the instrument is a piece of cake in your mind. You only have to think of both notes and sound at the same time. Bot boring at all!

I guess I should elaborate...I always find it extremely boring and against my nature to try to stick things that I can already understand and do into my mind so that I can retrieve them later. My mind likes to create and encounter new things, not repeat something already done...

What I find enjoyable to do when practicing is figuring out how to play some passage...try to play it...listen to the result...not satisfied...try again differently until satisfied...move on to a new passage...but this does not help memorization

[awesom_o]

I guess I should elaborate...I always find it extremely boring and against my nature to try to stick things that I can already understand and do into my mind so that I can retrieve them later. My mind likes to create and encounter new things, not repeat something already done...

  I agree with outin 100%!

Chamber music all the way!

When I was younger, I preferred to play by memory.

I think this is because my chamber-music skills and sight-reading were not that developed yet. 

The better those skills got, the more I loved to play chamber music, and the lonelier I felt playing solo my memory. I still play solo, of course, but I like to have the score with me.

[outin]

The better those skills got, the more I loved to play chamber music, and the lonelier I felt playing solo my memory. I still play solo, of course, but I like to have the score with me.

You have the benefit of having enough skill to be able to choose...My skills are so limited that trying to really make music requires memorizing. There's simply not enough brain power to manage everything so difficult at once: reading the score/posture and movements/sound quality/musical image/hold concentration...

[awesom_o]

Spend some time really focusing on making progress in one area of your musicianship.

I would suggest starting with rhythm.

Forget about piano-music in order to really address this issue. Work with single-line music.

Get really good at doing the following:

Count the time signature out loud with your voice (for common time, it should sound like one AND two AND three AND four AND, etc), and clap the rhythm of the music with your hands!

Start with easy things... folk songs, pop songs, whatever floats your boat, really.

The key is that you are successfully controlling multiple parameters within a limited framework. In this case, we have removed musical pitch from the equation entirely, so that we can focus on building our rhythmic skills in a vacuum of sorts.

As soon as we add in the vast horizontal space and multitude of notes that the keyboard provides us with, there will be far too many parameters to control unless our musicianship is advanced to an extremely high level.

Spend a good amount of time on this, instead of simply playing the solo pieces you wish to hear in the same old manner every day and calling it 'practicing', and you will make great leaps forward!

[outin]

Spend some time really focusing progress in one area of your musicianship.

I would suggest starting with rhythm.

Forget about piano-music in order to really address this issue. Work with single-line music.

Get really good at doing the following:

Count the time signature out loud with your voice (for common time, it should sound like one AND two AND three AND four AND, etc), and clap the rhythm of the music with your hands!

Start with easy things... folk songs, pop songs, whatever floats your boat, really.

The key is that you are successfully controlling multiple parameters within a limited framework. In this case, we have removed musical pitch from the equation entirely, so that we can focus on building our rhythmic skills in a vacuum of sorts.

As soon as we add in the vast horizontal space and multitude of notes that the keyboard provides us with, there will be far too many parameters to control unless our musicianship is advanced to an extremely high level.

Spend a good amount of time on this, instead of simply playing the solo pieces you wish to hear in the same old manner every day and calling it 'practicing', and you will make great leaps forward!

Good advice but my problem is a bit different. Not rhythm, that I can handle very well, because it just comes natural to me.
 
This is me playing from the score:
I play and it goes nicely and I really like the sound of it...suddenly I hear something isn't right, either the melody or the harmony is disrupted...so I think  maybe I accidently hit wrong note or forgot a sharp or flat from the key signature. So I keep playing....no, it's still wrong...so I glance at my hands, maybe I'm misplaced...no, everything looks right...I'm getting confused...need to figure out where the mistake is, which hand or which voice...I really cannot go on until I've figured it out. So I check the score again...starting from the things that are most probable to go wrong. Still cannot see anything wrong...until finally...Damn! That one single note was not where I thought it was, there are more lines or spaces than what I saw... So now I can keep on playing but this same old stupid thing happening AGAIN has already p*ssed me off and the mood is gone...

I've practiced sight reading a lot, starting from single hand simple melodies in c major and even then I misread notes. I have been using music notation regularly for 15 years or so when younger and now every day for almost 3 years. The problem has persisted. Was recently told that notation reading problems are often assoaciated with dyscalculia, which is not believed to be "curable". One can learn to compensate, but it still takes far more effort and time to figure out things that are immediately clear to you if you are normal in this sense. And mistakes are frequent, just like they are when I have to do simple counting or manage dates and such.

Of course I cannot expect someone to understand who has not experienced this kind of messing up of the reality in the mind. But I think it's the main reason I've given up all instruments in the past, the frustration just grew to be too much. I have always wanted to play new music and a lot of music, not just practice the same thing over and over until I can drop the score. But it just doesn't work very well...sigh...

So considering my age, if I have any hope of ever enjoying playing the piano, I want to memorize at least some pieces to be able to really play them the way I want to...which means perfectly 

[awesom_o]

Remember that perfection itself is imperfection!

It sounds to me as though you are trying to read scores that are beyond the level of your musicianship in terms of their complexity.

Never fear! Find scores that are simple enough that you can play them from beginning to end flawlessly without looking down at your hands (not necessarily perfect, but flawless as in meaning average Joe from off the street wouldn't be able to detect any actual flaws in your performance).

[outin]

Remember that perfection itself is imperfection!

It sounds to me as though you are trying to read scores that are beyond the level of your musicianship in terms of their complexity.

Never fear! Find scores that are simple enough that you can play them from beginning to end flawlessly without looking down at your hands (not necessarily perfect, but flawless as in meaning average Joe from off the street wouldn't be able to detect any actual flaws in your performance).

As I said already, I don't expect you to understand... It's like having dyslexia. I have the same problems no matter how simple the score. Tested myself with Mikrokosmos 1 recently just doing one hand at the time....at least one reading error per line... it really doesn't get much simpler than that...

And I only look at my hands after the mistakes occur... I need to keep my eyes glued to the score to even try to manage to read it...

Sometimes complicated scores are actually easier, not quite sure why, but I think there are more reference points in the score, not having to rely simply on the correct perception as to the place of a one single note on the staff.

One thing that is sure to cause a mistake is having a sequence of two similar notes/intervals on certain parts of the staff. My eyes/mind refuse to accept that they are the same, but instead force my hands to play something else even when it's clearly wrong. It's kind of surreal really, which would be interesting, if it wasn't so damn annoying...

[awesom_o]

Hmm.

You should be 'hearing' the correct notes in your mind before you actually play them.

This way, if you play an incorrect note, it's either because you heard the note itself incorrectly, which is a musical error, OR, you heard the correct note, but played an incorrect note instead, which is a technical error.

[liszt85]

Exactly...actively memorizing is boring. That's why I have tried everything else I can think of to avoid actively memorizing stuff. I mainly just relied on the type of memorizing that happens gradually without any effort. Unfortunately it just takes too long, I cannot stay with one short piece for months...

I have been telling myself that I'm just unable to memorize by will but I guess that's not exactly true. I have been struggling with a piece which I just cannot play fluently with the score no matter how much I practice. My eyes simply can not handle it. And this is something I really need to learn before the first lesson. So a few days ago I started memorizing by trying to play the sections without the score and only dug it out when I really had to (which was quite often in the beginning) and forced myself to put it away right after checking the spot. And of course it works, after a few days I can almost get through the two pages without stopping.

But it is really boring to do it this way...and boring is probably the worst thing I can think of...damn!

Sorry, but that kind of "memorizing" is a recipe for disaster on the stage. Do you have extensive performance experience? I'd be surprised if you do. By mindlessly memorizing as you describe here, you are yet again relying mostly on muscle memory if you are not analyzing the piece thoroughly using music theory. On stage, assuming nerves are at play, muscle memory is the first to go. So you do not want to memorize by trial and error.

[outin]

Hmm.

You should be 'hearing' the correct notes in your mind before you actually play them.

This way, if you play an incorrect note, it's either because you heard the note itself incorrectly, which is a musical error, OR, you heard the correct note, but played an incorrect note instead, which is a technical error.

Not sure I completely follow...

If I could both hear the notes beforehand in my head and immediately know what notes they are then obviously I would not have a problem. Then again I would not need the score either, because I could just play by ear?

The errors rarely occur in the middle of a pattern or scale, because logic or my ear tells me what comes next and I don't necessarily have to read every note. Many patterns I can instantly recognize already, it's just the matter of getting them to the right place. Chords are a problem too, because my mind also likes to put them to the wrong place...

I am trying to compensate by improving my reading in general...both reading a lot and do really basic practice like first read, then say the note in my head and only after that play. But getting more fluent in sight reading just make these funny odd errors stand out more  

[outin]

Sorry, but that kind of "memorizing" is a recipe for disaster on the stage. Do you have extensive performance experience? I'd be surprised if you do. By mindlessly memorizing as you describe here, you are yet again relying mostly on muscle memory if you are not analyzing the piece thoroughly using music theory. On stage, assuming nerves are at play, muscle memory is the first to go. So you do not want to memorize by trial and error.

??

If you are referring to the former method (just playing it until it sticks), then I completely agree, but the latter is not "mindlessly" memorizing, it's quite the contrary, it is actively practicing retrieval of the information. Because of course all that stuff is already in my head, I just need to practice getting it out fast enough and securely in the right places when needed. That happens by using all the different memory tools, theory, aural and maybe visual. For the difficult to remember spots I try to create cues while referring back to the score, I don't just look and mindlessly try again.

This has nothing to do with muscle memory, a lot of that already exists, but since it is so unreliable it is not enough. The piece in question I can already play by muscle memory if I happen to be lucky...

One of the reasons this piece is so difficult to memorize is that it's 20th century and my modest theory knowledge does not help with the places where things go against the "usual". It also has phrases that are almost, but not quite identical...so it's really easy to forget which one I am doing...

[liszt85]

??

One of the reasons this piece is so difficult to memorize is that it's 20th century and my modest theory knowledge does not help with the places where things go against the "usual". It also has phrases that are almost, but not quite identical...so it's really easy to forget which one I am doing...

This is what I meant. By your own admission, you do not have a very good idea about what is going on in the piece theoretically. It can be a 20th century piece. It certainly isn't a random set of notes. There is a method behind the "madness" in every composition. As long as you are clueless about that, what you are doing is still mostly training your muscle memory.

Don't worry, most amateur musicians including myself are guilty of this mistake. However, trying to play without looking at the score occasionally spot checking when you go wrong doesn't qualify as a sound memorization technique.

[liszt85]

Of course I cannot expect someone to understand who has not experienced this kind of messing up of the reality in the mind. But I think it's the main reason I've given up all instruments in the past, the frustration just grew to be too much. I have always wanted to play new music and a lot of music, not just practice the same thing over and over until I can drop the score. But it just doesn't work very well...sigh...

These are all signs of applying wrong learning techniques. So you would be well advised to reconsider what you've been thinking of as active memorization among other things. Do you have a teacher? 

[outin]

These are all signs of applying wrong learning techniques. So you would be well advised to reconsider what you've been thinking of as active memorization among other things. Do you have a teacher? 

Yes, I do have a teacher. You don't have enough information to analyze my situation because it's not something I can explain that well in these short posts, so I can understand you jumping into wrong conclusions.

Maybe you don't know much about learning challenges or differences in the ways people learn. I have had to gradually find the best ways for me to learn despite them, because common learning methods will not always work for me. This does not mean that I haven't tried them also. But results I only get when I use the right methods for me.

I expect the amount of people with little progress or ending up quitting piano studies altogether reflects the common attitude that if you try long and hard enough in a way you are told to, you will succeed. There's little taking into account the individual differences and the need to adjust the methods to them.

[outin]

It can be a 20th century piece. It certainly isn't a random set of notes.

Of course not, but as usual with Dmitri, there are "random" notes

[outin]

However, trying to play without looking at the score occasionally spot checking when you go wrong doesn't qualify as a sound memorization technique.

I really didn't write clearly enough:
I never meant spot checking AFTER GOING WRONG...I meant taking the time to remember/figure it out first in the mind and only if not able to at all, look at the score and try to understand it better so that next time I would remember.

And anyway, my method obviously works, because I can conclude after a short practice session that I now can play the piece from memory without trouble, which I could not do a few days ago 

[hfmadopter]

I really didn't write clearly enough:
I never meant spot checking AFTER GOING WRONG...I meant taking the time to remember/figure it out first in the mind and only if not able to at all, look at the score and try to understand it better so that next time I would remember.

And anyway, my method obviously works, because I can conclude after a short practice session that I now can play the piece from memory without trouble, which I could not do a few days ago 

Getting back to being bored when memorizing previously read pieces. Have you tried memorizing from the get go on any work, outin ? In other words, a little practice to feel your way along but then go right to memorizing each section as you learn it. In this way by the time you get to the end it should be all fairly well memorized. I find this to work lately where in the past I did not work this way. And I'm doing that on 20th century pieces. I'm reading the Mozart I'm working on however ( my problem is still speed on faster runs that are read, if I really memorize the run it will go faster and smoother though)..

I do understand what the others are getting at, in theory if you really know the music, the runs, the patterns, the key and related chords, then you should play similarly read or memorized. But that's in theory, we all work differently.

[liszt85]

But that's in theory, we all work differently.

Sure there are individual differences. However, there are commonalities across brains as well. If everybody were completely different from each other in how their brains worked. we wouldn't have a field called neuroscience. So common sense memory principles should work for the most part for everybody. Within those principles, how much each strategy works for different people might vary slightly across individuals.

So saying that none of those tried and tested methods work for me without having SINCERELY tried them out is a sign of laziness, something that afflicts many amateur musicians possibly due to constraints on the time that they might get to devote to music. However, developing good learning habits will eventually save you time though it might take a while at the beginning. So patience is a virtue during the stage where you are developing these good practice and learning habits. Those who acquire them early on in life obviously find it easy later on. Those who try to acquire them later on in life are usually in a hurry and that is counterproductive.

These are just general observations, not a comment directed at anybody personally because as outin rightly said, I do not know your circumstances and I do not know if you have worked seriously with a teacher trying to develop these tried and tested good pianistic habits.

[liszt85]

I really didn't write clearly enough:
I never meant spot checking AFTER GOING WRONG...I meant taking the time to remember/figure it out first in the mind and only if not able to at all, look at the score and try to understand it better so that next time I would remember.

And anyway, my method obviously works, because I can conclude after a short practice session that I now can play the piece from memory without trouble, which I could not do a few days ago 

Good for you if it works. Have you tried performing these pieces in public? Are you able to play them without memory lapses on stage? That would be the true test of your memorization strategies. My learning habits are still evolving and I'm still engaging in a lot of suboptimal learning techniques (such as the ones I critiques in my posts). I am able to play my pieces very well when I'm alone in my house as well. However, I wouldn't claim that I'm confident that I'll play without memory lapses on stage in front of an audience. That is because I know that I have a lot more work to do on my theory and musical understanding and practice habits before I can get to that level of confidence. So try performing these pieces on stage (i.e., in front of other people) a couple of times and if you are able to play through consistently without memory lapses, then your memorization techniques obviously work for you.

[hfmadopter]

I am able to play my pieces very well when I'm alone in my house as well. However, I wouldn't claim that I'm confident that I'll play without memory lapses on stage in front of an audience.

And really you won't know that until you have an audience. It's been decades now since I've had a teacher but the one I had back then had work shops for this. Every Second either Tues or Wed of the month ( too long ago, don't recall which but think it was Wed). Anyway, we used those work shops to bounce this stuff off an audience, it worked great to prepare for a recital or other performance. More times in the 11 or so years I took lessons from her I thought I was ready and wham, work shop night proved otherwise. She was very good ( the teacher, Mrs Allen) about getting us who wanted to play for a group or crowd, little appearances around town when we were far enough along for that.

There is absolutely nothing like experience in this, you can talk about it all day long but until you have done it you don't really know what that is like. You know in a little way, just by playing for a friend or relative who hasn't heard you before. Or to play a recital is getting there. But to get sent to some place so people can hear you play is a whole different matter again. The first time I did this I thought I must be crazy, I felt like I was headed to the gallows. Eventually you work through that and I won't say it becomes second nature but you at least know what to expect and how to go about preparing.

[bronnestam]

Today, while I was struggling to memorize some bars that felt "impossible", I suddenly realized that I had gone back to an old and very bad habit: to memorize HT.

Maybe I'm the last person in the world to discover this simple fact, but I write anyway now, just in case. I am a pretty good sight-reader - HS. I can also memorize without difficulties if I just work HS. When I try memorizing HT, it is like hitting a wall, too much for my poor brain to process or something.   

So I went through these bars with my right hand and got them all right, and then I could do the same thing with my left hand and then there were no problems at all, as I already knew how to play the piece.

Having everything solidly memorized HS is also a great help if you happen to get a memory blackout later. A useful memory test, which I learned from Graham Fitch, is to play with one  hand, and then at a randomly given signal (preferably from an assistant) you switch over to the other hand, and so on. If you can do that without problems, you can be sure that you really know the piece!

Another test which eliminates the pitfall of muscle memory is to play the piece very, very slow.

[hfmadopter]

Another test which eliminates the pitfall of muscle memory is to play the piece very, very slow.

Yes indeed, what seems totally done can go to pieces as soon as you go slow with it. Then you know you are relying on too much muscle memory and not enough conscious playing. This can be scarey when you are practicing getting up to speed for a recital or performance, it's good to do a stop check now and then, play slow to be sure you aren't going back to flying by pure muscle/seat of the pants, so to speak.

[outin]

Sure there are individual differences. However, there are commonalities across brains as well. If everybody were completely different from each other in how their brains worked. we wouldn't have a field called neuroscience. So common sense memory principles should work for the most part for everybody. Within those principles, how much each strategy works for different people might vary slightly across individuals.

So saying that none of those tried and tested methods work for me without having SINCERELY tried them out is a sign of laziness, something that afflicts many amateur musicians possibly due to constraints on the time that they might get to devote to music. However, developing good learning habits will eventually save you time though it might take a while at the beginning. So patience is a virtue during the stage where you are developing these good practice and learning habits. Those who acquire them early on in life obviously find it easy later on. Those who try to acquire them later on in life are usually in a hurry and that is counterproductive.

These are just general observations, not a comment directed at anybody personally because as outin rightly said, I do not know your circumstances and I do not know if you have worked seriously with a teacher trying to develop these tried and tested good pianistic habits.

The field of neuroscience is really fascinating and it has helped us a lot in understanding both the similarities AND the differences between individuals. If you read more into it, you will see that while of course not all people are not completely different to each other, there are also many significant differences that explain why statistically common principles do not always apply. In the end the fact that something is statistically common makes no difference to the one individual who is at the far end of the curve, right?

Of course you are also right about people often being intellectually lazy reverting to the same old ways even when they do not give optimal results. But also you should know that people who are not able to benefit from conventional learning methods have in the past generally been labelled lazy (or just stupid). And only after they have found another way to learn it has brought remarkable results.

For me personally age has brought better understanding of myself,
a little more patience and a lot more knowledge and adaptation skills, so now I am able to work on the issues in a different way than I did when I was young. I also had so many other interests then, that I didn't find it really important to learn to play but rather concentrated on those things that I was more naturally adapted for. Now I find it quite interesting to try all kinds of different ways and adjusting them to my needs. I enjoy solving problems, so I am probably more motivated by the process than the desire to some day play well.

[liszt85]

The field of neuroscience is really fascinating and it has helped us a lot in understanding both the similarities AND the differences between individuals. If you read more into it, you will see that while of course not all people are not completely different to each other, there are also many significant differences that explain why statistically common principles do not always apply.

I've had the opportunity to read "more into it" as I'm currently in a PhD program (5th year ongoing) and I do cognitive neuroscience. All I said was while there are individual differences, one must not refer to those as an excuse for not sincerely trying out common sense and well established memory and learning principles. Note that there is a difference between calling someone who hasn't tried any conventional technique lazy and calling someone with a deviant brain who has tried conventional methods to no avail lazy. Now of course as you said at the end of your last post, your primary goal is probably not to play the best you can, you probably get more kicks out of trying out different methods. In that case, none of what I said applies to you.

[outin]

Getting back to being bored when memorizing previously read pieces. Have you tried memorizing from the get go on any work, outin ? In other words, a little practice to feel your way along but then go right to memorizing each section as you learn it.

In fact I decided to do just that for the new piece I got for the x-mas break. Because it's a fast etude, it makes little sense trying to play it with the score, I need to be able to concentrate on other things. It's only one page, so if I really decide to, I should be able to memorize it in just a few days. I assume that the process will get faster when I get used to doing it.

In the beginning when my reading was much worse than today, I used to memorize the pieces this way too, but now I see the pieces were simply too difficult in several ways and that's why it took so long. I also didn't consistently apply all the little things I do now to make it more secure. Even compared to last spring I now feel much more secure with the pieces I am learning. Then again the Shostakovich piece we selected based on what is especially difficult for me, large uncomfortable chords with jumps in RH and awkward arpeggios in LH. Without memorizing I just cannot handle everything.

[outin]

Now of course as you said at the end of your last post, your primary goal is probably not to play the best you can, you probably get more kicks out of trying out different methods. In that case, none of what I said applies to you.

You seem to have a habit of reading more into what I write than what was intended, and I do have a habit of expressing myself too inadequately

My primary goal is to play perfectly! But it is not enough to motivate me to work as much as I do on everyday level, considering everything else going on my life. If I did not enjoy the process of solving problems as well, I would already have given up.

[liszt85]

You seem to have a habit of reading more into what I write than what was intended, and I do have a habit of expressing myself too inadequately

My primary goal is to play perfectly! But it is not enough to motivate me to work as much as I do on everyday level, considering everything else going on my life. If I did not enjoy the process of solving problems as well, I would already have given up.

This is what you said: I enjoy solving problems, so I am probably more motivated by the process than the desire to some day play well. For me, the primary goal is also the primary source of motivation. I don't see how the alternative works where your primary goal and primary motivation are not aligned. Yet another example of individual differences I guess.

[outin]

Good for you if it works. Have you tried performing these pieces in public? Are you able to play them without memory lapses on stage? That would be the true test of your memorization strategies. My learning habits are still evolving and I'm still engaging in a lot of suboptimal learning techniques (such as the ones I critiques in my posts). I am able to play my pieces very well when I'm alone in my house as well. However, I wouldn't claim that I'm confident that I'll play without memory lapses on stage in front of an audience. That is because I know that I have a lot more work to do on my theory and musical understanding and practice habits before I can get to that level of confidence. So try performing these pieces on stage (i.e., in front of other people) a couple of times and if you are able to play through consistently without memory lapses, then your memorization techniques obviously work for you.

I have had no need to perform on stage. But in general I suffer from memory and attention deficit issues just as much playing at home as I do when playing somewhere else or on my lessons. On a bad day I do not need an outside stimulus or stress to loose my attention. Since I do not usually suffer from stage fright (I have no problem singing or speaking to an audience) I think if I could play the piece consistently at home or on lessons and know that I can, I could also do it on stage.

It seems to me now that you assumed the type of memorization discussed here was the only thing I would do? This is just the first stage of course, to be able to get rid of the score so that I can better concentrate on the quality of my playing. Assuming this piece is something I would like to really polish and not just use as a means of learning, I would of course use many methods to solidify the piece in such a way that even when I do loose my concentration for a moment, I can recover.

[outin]

This is what you said: I enjoy solving problems, so I am probably more motivated by the process than the desire to some day play well. For me, the primary goal is also the primary source of motivation. I don't see how the alternative works where your primary goal and primary motivation are not aligned. Yet another example of individual differences I guess.

I am writing on a foreign language so you must excuse me if I am not always clear enough.

Do you really think that the primary goal is enough to be a source of motivation? Well, maybe it is when things go smoothly, but when one is faced with problems on so many levels, both physical and mental, I doubt it is enough to keep one going at the stages where the primary goal is as far away as the moon

And I do think that my primary goal and my motivation are aligned enough, because I don't really believe such a thing as playing perfectly exists. Playing the piano will be a never ending learning experience, so if one does not enjoy the learning process and the difficulties in it, what would be the point of it?

[liszt85]

Playing the piano will be a never ending learning experience, so if one does not enjoy the learning process and the difficulties in it, what would be the point of it?

There is a difference between that and saying that your desire to experiment with learning strategies outweighs your desire to some day play well. So of course you need to enjoy the learning process and I didn't say you didn't need to. I think there is a lot of miscommunication happening here.

P.S: I was the front man of a rock band some years ago and I never had trouble singing in front of big audiences. Playing the piano is an entirely different story however. So don't assume that because you can sing and speak in front of an audience, it will be the same when it comes to playing the piano. If you believe in individual differences, you must also believe in domain differences.

[outin]

P.S: I was the front man of a rock band some years ago and I never had trouble singing in front of big audiences. Playing the piano is an entirely different story however. So don't assume that because you can sing and speak in front of an audience, it will be the same when it comes to playing the piano. If you believe in individual differences, you must also believe in domain differences.

You really do not have to worry about me assuming such things. I'm quite rational.

Forgot BTW, that of course I have performed on stage with the piano too, as a child. Didn't enjoy it because I was never prepared enough. I would not be that silly now...

[liszt85]

You really do not have to worry about me assuming such things. I'm quite rational.

Forgot BTW, that of course I have performed on stage with the piano too, as a child. Didn't enjoy it because I was never prepared enough. I would not be that silly now...

Since I do not usually suffer from stage fright (I have no problem singing or speaking to an audience) I think if I could play the piece consistently at home or on lessons and know that I can, I could also do it on stage.

[future_maestro]

Many new players confuse this. Muscle memory is how you play the piano!


Sure you can, what you call "Actually learn" a piece, but without muscle memory, you would have to think about each individual note before you hit it! This can be accomplished easily when you're playing easy songs, but when you are playing fast, and I mean fast, songs, it would be impossible!

What you are doing when you're learning/practicing a song is training the muscle memory to hit the right notes.

[outin]

Too complicated to add the quotes. @Liszt85
I have no idea what you wanted to say with the quotes. But I will try to be more clear:

All I am saying is that when I am myself satisfied with my preparation with the piece, I will no doubt be able to play it anywhere. I am certainly not easily satisfied. I am making conclusions based on my (quite long) life experience and knowing myself quite well. What makes you think piano playing is so fundamentally different to any other demanding activity? It's not quite the same to sing with a rock band than keeping 500 or more people entertained for several hours by yourself without any backup. I do know about nerves, but since I have had to work on the issue in the past I also know how to get rid of them.

When having to perform unprepared as a kid I did the best I could, but I knew very well I wasn't prepared, because I simply did not practice. I was silly to not refuse to play. I am smarter today, I don't do my teacher's recitals because I have no pieces up to that standard. To do that I would need to cut back lessons because there's not enough time to both polish pieces and progress with new ones. I care less about what others think about my playing, it's my own demands that are very high. Of course people like me do not necessarily have as much interest in performing. That's not why I play the piano at all.

Most of my problems with the piano are caused by "deviant brain" as you so well put it. I am not at all worried about the pressure messing up my actions, because such a thing just does not happen to me. I usually do even better when I am forced to "pull myself together" instead of just feeling comfortable. I know very well that I am not like most people, so what goes for me will usually not apply to others. People have a tendency to assume that their experience goes for everyone, but I learned quite early on that mine won't. Seems to me you need a bit more time to realize that...

And I never even disagreed about having to be well prepared before performing. Unless one is able to improvise out of anything, one should be or the thing might fall to pieces unless you're lucky. I am just saying that I will know it myself when I am prepared enough, because I am not able to do it at home consistently either until I am. But I have no interest in doing that for the majority of pieces I work on because at the moment I am not in this to learn pieces to performance level but to learn skills to be able to learn any piece I want later when I will have more time to devote to playing.

There are a couple of pieces I am trying to record and I work on them as side projects and that has given me a pretty good idea how long it will take and what methods work to get them to the level of security needed.

[lorcar]

Many new players confuse this. Muscle memory is how you play the piano!


Sure you can, what you call "Actually learn" a piece, but without muscle memory, you would have to think about each individual note before you hit it! This can be accomplished easily when you're playing easy songs, but when you are playing fast, and I mean fast, songs, it would be impossible!

What you are doing when you're learning/practicing a song is training the muscle memory to hit the right notes.

does that mean you have to know/remember each single note and being able to "speak" them like if it were a poetry by heart? like "G B F D C ....etc etc"?