I am not. That's your impression only and shows that it is indeed you who have missed several points others have made in this discussion.
A piano teacher prescribing drugs - priceless. That just sounds stupid to me. I think the piano teacher needs to be someone to give confidence not drugs. Example : " Although I criticize you over every little thing, you play this piece like no other that I have ever heard. You are ready. and I am proud to be called your teacher."
If what you said in the quote wasn't what you meant then by all means clarify what you do mean.
I will not bother, especially since you already have stated as a fact that I said something that I do not think I did. As shown so many times before trying to clarify something to you is a waste of time. If you really wanted to know what people mean (after all this is an international forum), you would ask clarifying questions BEFORE making a lot of far fetched assumptions that suit your prejudices and letting your imagination fly to create remarkable theories about what other people think or do...
Yes. Inderal/propanolol is the best bet. Extremely safe, and it works. Some guy is just nitpicking my post it seems. And anyways, what is the point of this thread? Just seems like a bunch of people arguing. The OP hasn't responded once to this thread, so who cares.
However bullying is not cool, and that is what "Nyiregyhazi" is. He is an (and this is a compliment) intellectual bully,Think about it.
Very well put, and your analysis is on point.However bullying is not cool, and that is what "Nyiregyhazi" is. He is an (and this is a compliment) intellectual bully, who spends most of his days harassing pianists on this website.It is high time we fight back. Otherwise, every single time any one posts a response, Nyiregyhazi will respond, and respond, and respond!Think about it.
David Helfgott is a spastic lunatic who cannot even play a scale without being on his meds. This nut job went out on tour, charging $50 a ticket for his recitals, and wherever he performed about half of the audience got up and walked out.
However bullying is not cool, and that is what "Nyiregyhazi" is. He is an (and this is a compliment) intellectual bully, who spends most of his days harassing pianists on this website.It is high time we fight back. Otherwise, every single time any one posts a response, Nyiregyhazi will respond, and respond, and respond!Think about it.
All N is saying is that excessive nervousness *can* very much be the (conditioned) result of bad habits; a vicious circle that is hard to break. If that is the case (and it takes a sharp mind and a good deal of honesty towards oneself to admit that), then all suggested "remedies" in this thread are off target. This is a valuable point of view that should not be withheld from being posted. If N.'s concepts are too hard to take or grasp, or too confronting maybe, do not respond. It's that simple. Peace to all.
too many notes !
Dr. N
Joseph II of Austria (*) has instructed me to seek a small payment from you for your use of his line.* More formally, His Imperial Majesty The Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II, by the grace of God elected Holy Roman Emperor, forever August, King of Germany, Jerusalem, Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia and Lodomeria, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Burgundy, Lorraine, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Grand Duke of Tuscany, Grand Prince of Transylvania, Duke of Brabant, Limburg, Luxembourg, Gelderland, Württemberg, the Upper and Lower Silesia, Milan, Mantua, Parma, Piacenza, Guastalla, Auschwitz, Zator, Calabria, Bar, Montferrat, Teschen, Prince of Swabia, Charleville, Princely Count of Habsburg, Flanders, Tyrol, Hennegau, Kyburg, Gorizia, Gradisca, Margrave of Antwerp, Burgau, the Upper and Lower Lusatia, Pont-à-Mousson, Nomeny, Moravia, Count of Namur, Provence, Vaudémont, Blâmont, Zutphen, Saarwerden, Salm, Falkenstein, Lord of the Wendish March and Mechelen.
Hahaha! I like that.I must admit that Dr. N.'s medicine may have a suspicious smell for some, but I highly prefer his healthy approach to the Inderal/Propanolol variant proposed by some other "doctors" on here, especially after a thorough read of the possible side effects (I did a search concerning the precautions and warnings). I'd rather admit that I am not up to the task of performing than swallow any of those blockers.
Refusing to clarify your stance neither assists a sincere discussion nor the problem you have said you have. Do you want to take steps to solve that problem or is winning an argument a greater priority?
Exactly, a good teacher will te you if you are ready, not just condone a drug because you feel nervous. You have to understand nervous when it comes to playing piano in front of people. Nervous happens because we care and it should be embraced, not feared.
You have your own understanding of people's problems and your advice is of use only when it's applicable.
Don't expect everyone to be wrapped up in their own problems and experiences, it is actually possible to see things from different viewpoints if you just keep an open mind. You expect everyone to be wrapped up in their own problems and experiences, it is actually possible to see things from different viewpoints if you just keep an open mind. You do make some good points in your posts, but they are often lost since you seem to think everyone else is completely ignorant and so you don't even notice that you just keep repeating things that are already taken by granted by the other party.
When one is well prepared one is usually able to compensate for the failure to some extend but IMO it would be ridiculous to claim one can prepare for everything and that the performance can be as good as it would be on a day when one is "normal"..
You seem to use the term musicality differently than me. For me musicality in playing means simply to create in reality the musical ideas one has in one's head. Part of that comes from the composer (the score), but the rest comes from one's own (or borrowed) musical vision or ideas. The possibilities are almost infinite and the ideas do not have to constantly stay the same, even with one piece. To get to this requires a lot of preparation but it also requires high level of concentration on the spot and good control of one's playing apparatus. If those are missing, there's simply no way one could pull off as a high level performance as normally, unless one is a seasoned professional.
And even with them people seem to notice the difference. So it's quite clearly not possible for everybody who wants to play the piano, but cannot spend several hours daily for full concentrated practice and perform regularly, to pull of what a professional can.
If you do not agree with my premise at all, believing instead that all people can always consistently bring out their musical visions, if they use the correct practice tools, please just say so.
But if you just don't want to talk about the performance situation at all but rather talk about practice habits, which are obviously very important for the damage control, we are not even on the same topic. So it's no surprise we cannot get anywhere.
^ Yes, this is a public forum but your posts are supposed to be answers to mine. Yet again you could not make a coherent answer without including unnecessary rubbish and putting ideas in my head that never where there. That's what you do. It's a pity really. If you learned to write and discuss things in a better way, people might actually benefit from your posts.My ego is well, but my reason tells me I've said enough
There's no forum rule about being banned from exploring wider issues within replies.
If you're just going to dismiss it as unnecessary rubbish then there is nothing further to discuss.
The only idea I have attributed to you was the one you said straight up-which is that pragmatic awareness conflicts with musicality.
Of course not and I would not wish so.Exploring wider issues was not what I referred as rubbish. Most of us do that.Those are your words, not mine. I do not make such generalizations.
I revert back to my much earlier post, the nerves begin to subside when you really know your music and have more experience playing in front of people. Way back decades ago my teacher's approach to nerves was to assign you little performances around town. To set up duets with another pianist to be performed in a month or two in front of her monthly work shop attendees. This began in the beginning by agreeing to attend these work shops. I speak from experience when I say you become more secure in your playing in front of people in this way. No drugs, everyone today wants a pill for something, drugs were not even a thought back then by my teacher. I won't say you cured yourself 100% of any nervousness but it was controllable and understandable.
This is going nowhere of interest.
Anyway, you can deny it as vehemently as you like but I'll quote you a third and final time: "We are back to either not performing at all, letting things fall apart or playing overly carefully allowing one to be conscious of more details, even when it leads to a decline in musical depth (obviously not to a complete lack of musicality)."
... the above only applies in the moment before a performance THAT HAS NOT BEEN OPTIMALLY PREPARED.
Couldn't agree more!Do you have a problem with understanding written text? You keep quoting me and then claim I said something else. Where did I say that pragmatic awaress conflicts with musicality? The above quote was about what to do when one is not able to handle what one normally can and is required to leave out something from the equation. THAT is what conflicts with musicality. Maybe you cannot imagine such circumstances, but anyone with normal intelligence realize they do exist, so why bother continuing this? Is it simply to have the last word? The fact that you are calling me close minded just makes you seem ridiculous. This is where you are simply wrong. How much depends on what you think "optimally prepared" means. You cannot show any proof otherwise, so it is in fact you who should be more humble.
It would actually be quite easy (but unethical) to prove you wrong. Just take someone really well prepared and toxicate him before a performance and see what happens...
You posted that AFTER I made it abundantly clear that no such situation should be allowed to arise and that I was talking about prevention.
Do you want to dwell on assumption of that happening or do you want to look at practical prevention? It's like obsessing over what to do if you fall out of a plane without a parachute rather than focusing on learning to pack one that is in full working order and to actually put it on. If you know what optimally prepared means, demonstrate it by becoming a pianist who is both musical and technically reliable. If you think kidding yourself that you had put yourself in a perfect situation with flawless methods (and assuming that things broke down merely because of some bizarre random chances) is going to help, then you'll certainly need to keep dwelling on that situation- because that attitude is exactly why will you be in that situation again. When things don't work, ask what you can prepare better- not what excuses can you come up with to protect the assumption that nothing could have been prepared better. Labouring in short term manifestations of problems and refusing to consider accountability for anything that could have been prepared better is not how a pianist either betters themself or becomes equipped to enter a situation with meaningful confidence.
As I said before, if you are confident that (as an experienced and relative newcomer to the piano) you know all about the best methods for preparation, publish a book on piano practise and become a professional teacher. Otherwise learn some humility and use that to start improving your procedures for the better.
Just like I posted the things you quoted BEFORE you had made it clear that YOU have decided we must only discuss how to optimally prepare for a performance. For some reason you felt the need to claim I am somehow against doing that. It is simply too ridiculous an argument in my mind to even bother to deny. And you've made other claims just as far from the truth based on mistaken assumptions you made from my posts. I know from experience that it's not worth to try to correct them all because there will be many more on your next post. I simply decided to stay on the topic I brought up, whether you like it or not. We can surely agree that one should do everything in one's power to prepare as well as possible for any kind of performance. But should one not perform at all when not "optimally prepared" or when the situation is againts succeeding regardless, is a valid question. I personally do not need to really make such decisions on playing the piano. I've made those many times in other things though. I know how it is to sing with a flu, I may have had ready and prepared a much better performance, but ended up pulling back to get through. I have not seen how it would be different with piano playing.What ever made you think this was about me? I was never dwelling on anything, just presenting different viewpoints. That's called conversation, and it doesn't always have to revolve around oneself. And what makes you think I am not aware of some good methods to prepare a performance? Or that I do not use the same methods to learn pieces in general? Have you observed me preparing or practicing anything? I do know what optimally prepared means for me. I just wasn't sure what it means to you after some of the weird arguments you made.Above is a good example of what I referred to when I talked about rubbish. Why would I need to write a book? I have read a lot of books about playing the piano and preparing a performance, some good and some less. If by humility you mean being aware of the amount of things still to learn, then I have plenty. I also have a fair amount of objectivity, which unfortunately is not that common in people. But maybe for you humility means something completely different: One should not question or disagree with anything YOU write no matter how illogical, subjective or one-sided one thinks it is. If so, I have none
If you want to stick with problems then fine, but there's no value in trying to discuss solutions with someone who is not open to the fact that their practise may not be perfect.
PS If you're objective, then ask yourself the objective question as to how an optimally prepared performance falls apart altogether because someone tried to make it musical (which the is the purpose of music making). This what's known as cognitive dissonance and it's not objective. Look at yourself as from an outsider's point of view and you'll start to see things differently.
Once you realize that nervousness is really just anticipation and energy then it can actually increase your focus which is not a bad thing. Piano performance aside, athletes experience nervousness as well. Try playing a championship baseball game, and you are the last batter with a runner on third base . You wiff , your team loses, you hit , your team wins. 5000 people watching. Nervous- yes. But I was just as nervous playing at a recital in front of a dozen of my peers.
I'll simply state one last time that if the only way to keep notes on track is to strip any of the musicality, music and technique have not been associated adequately in practice (and the notes are probably not known as well as they should be deep down, either). If you want to labour under the belief that practice which has not linked the physical execution to the musical intention can be considered as optimal practise, see how far it takes you in your next performance. Optimal practise has been done when to think about the notes IS to think about the musical intent and cannot be separated. Success of musical execution is a separate issue, but true intentions can never be stripped from the notes. To think of notes is to think of music, when they are linked.
You just can't stop, can you? You need not worry at all about the way I labour. I have a teacher whose method is based on NEVER to just learn the notes and try to add musicality later. So even if I wanted to I would not be allowed to work that way.
Are you all brain dead? Do you not know when you are being "played/used" by Nyiregyhazi?He will say whatever is necessary to sound caring and always insightful. However, if you monitor this post (and his other posts), the man is a pianist TR0LLER!!!This man has no peer reviewed treatise on piano technique. And, until Pianostreet decided to give him free reign, no one had ever heard of him.
This thread has the most views in the forum though for currently running threads. Last I looked it was up to 2130 views. Someone is interested in it.
Rumour has it some psych class has it as a case study.
This man has no peer reviewed treatise on piano technique. And, until Pianostreet decided to give him free reign, no one had ever heard of him.
I'm pleased to hear that, but remember that linking it to awareness of the notes was the key. If thinking about the notes doesn't consistently trigger that full musical conception (which you said it didn't in your example) it's simply not the inseparable link I spoke of. It's just a musical autopilot. That autopilot needs to be what you can fall back on to maintain musicality if you lose awareness of the notes, not the driving force. By definition, if thinking about the notes does not trigger the musical conception, the link has not been completed. When it has, thinking about the notes simply CANNOT interfere with musical conception. Only uncertainty about them can interfere. I really don't know how this is even controversial. Does anyone think a professional artist cannot link musicianship to awareness of the construction of the pieces they play? It's awareness of chromatic intervals that informs the voicing of harmonies. If a link isn't in place, it's because practise failed to instil it. This isn't rocket science.
He was banned from Piano World years ago.
This is probably the most reasonable and to the point post you have made in this thread, even with the unnecessary punch in the end.This is what happened here: I used an anecdote from one single lesson to illustrate something in a general discussion. Whether successfully or not is open to debate. It's also open to debate whether what I was trying to illustrate is true or not. You jumped into conclusions and decided in your head that *I* have this big attitude problem about my piano learning. Could you admit that you might have got it wrong or simply just let it be since there's no way of you knowing for sure? No, that's not you. Instead of simply staying on the subject and defend your views in a rational neutral way (which you should be able to do if your view is worth something) you could not let go of this idea of my "problem" and just kept on writing about it as if it was some kind of a fact. Now why would you do that? To help someone? Or is it simply because you need something like this to blow your own horn or you feel threatened by people having conflicting views from yours? You may think it makes you look smart, but it really doesn't.
- that situations are the product of preparation, yours included.
I guess that statement demonstrates the difference between us, you like to confine and simplify to find single solutions, whilst I am more interested in the broader picture and how different aspects interact. The complexity of reality is what intrigues me. I am not saying your statement is wrong, it just isn't the whole picture.
Thank you for the information. However, me thinks that a European "devil may care" attitude allows Nyiregyhazi to infest this website.That is sad because my experience has shown me that Pianostreet is heads and tails above Pianoworld, when it comes to intelligent civil discourse.
Louis, I'm afraid you lost any hope of high moral ground when you referred to Helfgott as a "spastic lunatic". If you want to talk about intelligent civil discourse then start by considering your own behaviour.
No one's questioning anyone's morals here, in your case it's about misinformation - and bags of it handed out so high-handedly!
Very well put. The Greek word is hubris/hybris, which means over-weaning pride and arrogance. That is the behavior consistently manifested by nyiregyhazi . As an Aspy, I fall into a totally different category.In regards Senor Helfgott, spasticity is a physical condition which manifests itself in sometimes uncontrollable jerking movements. Lunacy is when someone is neuro-physiologically unable to function on a normal, day to day level.David Helfgott fits the bill. He is not allowed to drive a car or shave himself in the morning because without medication he cannot adequately control his musco-skeletal bodily functions.If he had gone out on tour and presented himself as such, I personally would be singing his praises. However, he and his wife/nurse presented this man (through film, and recorded, and live performances) as a legitimate concert pianist.That means that they ripped-off a whole lot of people for a whole lot of money, while millions of hard working pianists throughout the world can't get arrested when it comes to major media exposure.
Topic: help for nervous pianists 