help for nervous pianists

[nyiregyhazi]

I am not. That's your impression only and shows that it is indeed you who have missed several points others have made in this discussion.

You actually said as much straight up, in the most explicit terms.

"We are back to either not performing at all, letting things fall apart or playing overly carefully allowing one to be conscious of more details, even when it leads to a decline in musical depth (obviously not to a complete lack of musicality)."

The only basis to state that is if you are assuming that musicality equals losing awareness and letting things fall apart and that the only way to use awareness is to become cautious and lose musicality. You're not going to understand what I'm saying unless you can first rethink this assumption. None of those associations are accurate to anything other than a situation you found yourself, as the product of how you had prepared for it. No such situation should ever be allowed to arise more than once without attention. After doing what it takes to get through that one occasion, it's time for the student to look again at whether their preparation had been organised effectively. Do you want to hang on to excuses and put yourself there again in order to prove some bizarre point or do you want to explore solutions to the dilemma you experienced? Awareness of the notes that a piece is compromised of ADDS to musicality in a finished product, when you are in the right place, it doesn't distract from it a jot. The notes are in the music and the music is in the notes. It's not a precarious "balance" between two factors that compromise each other but an association between two factors that enhance each other- when links are being made by optimal practise.

If what you said in the quote wasn't what you meant then by all means clarify what you do mean.

[hfmadopter]

A piano teacher prescribing drugs - priceless.  That just sounds stupid to me. I think the piano teacher needs to be someone to give confidence not drugs. Example : " Although I criticize you over every little thing, you play this piece like no other that I have ever heard. You are ready. and I am proud to be called your teacher." 

I would think it a choice left up to individuals. I'm not sure any teachers would actually prescribe drugs. I know someone suggested a drug earlier in the thread and that was for the purpose of performing. I don't agree and if I did it would be very very short lived, as this form of anxiety can be over come or controlled. It's a perspective, change the view and it will go away. The view changing comes many ways from more security in the music to how you view yourself in performance to just more experience. Early on yes, performing can do a number on you. I remember my first recital or worse, when I was a kid and we all had to play a solo piece in the accordion school on band day. I could have crawled into a hole, got all hot and sweaty. Amazingly as shaken as I was my hands did not shake. It was tough though, real tough. Today I learn my music with the intention of performing it. I will say that now recording bothers me a bit. I'll get over that too !

[outin]

If what you said in the quote wasn't what you meant then by all means clarify what you do mean.

I will not bother, especially since you already have stated as a fact that I said something that I do not think I did. As shown so many times before trying to clarify something to you is a waste of time. If you really wanted to know what people mean (after all this is an international forum), you would ask clarifying questions BEFORE making a lot of far fetched assumptions that suit your prejudices and letting your imagination fly to create remarkable theories about what other people think or do...

[nyiregyhazi]

I will not bother, especially since you already have stated as a fact that I said something that I do not think I did. As shown so many times before trying to clarify something to you is a waste of time. If you really wanted to know what people mean (after all this is an international forum), you would ask clarifying questions BEFORE making a lot of far fetched assumptions that suit your prejudices and letting your imagination fly to create remarkable theories about what other people think or do...

Refusing to clarify your stance neither assists a sincere discussion nor the problem you have said you have. Do you want to take steps to solve that problem or is winning an argument a greater priority? I take it that you're quibbling over the wording? Because I said thinking of notes equals no music, rather than severely diminished music? Well, see how much it helps you to ignore the important issues raised based on that minor technicality of language. If awareness causes ANY diminishment of music, then there is a serious and unenviable issue to resolve. Do you want to continue with that or improve the issue? If you do want to continue failing to be able to link note based awareness with musical interpretation (and thus end up having to make choices that no musician should be forced to make) go ahead. What I'm interested in is the nature of how to achieve results and this discussion has tremendously clarified relevant issues to that. I think I'll probably write a detailed blog post at some stage in the future about how to avoid situations where music and awareness feel contradictory to each other due to not having been unified via practise methods.

 If you're not interested in learning how to avoid such a horrible choice, by all means persist with the erroneous belief that these are conflicting rather than complementary issues- and put yourself in that situation again in future via the self fulfilling prophecy. I'll continue to focus on very real solutions to the problem. In these cases (where there's something specific being missed from the preparation) I find that clearly defined practical approaches are vastly more successful against nerves, than more abstract mind games.

[louispodesta]

Yes. Inderal/propanolol is the best bet. Extremely safe, and it works. Some guy is just nitpicking my post it seems. And anyways, what is the point of this thread? Just seems like a bunch of people arguing. The OP hasn't responded once to this thread, so who cares.

Very well put, and your analysis is on point.

However bullying is not cool, and that is what "Nyiregyhazi" is.  He is an (and this is a compliment) intellectual bully, who spends most of his days harassing pianists on this website.

It is high time we fight back.  Otherwise, every single time any one posts a response, Nyiregyhazi will respond, and respond, and respond!

Think about it.

[hfmadopter]

However bullying is not cool, and that is what "Nyiregyhazi" is.  He is an (and this is a compliment) intellectual bully,

Think about it.

Interesting perspective, I don't know if it's an accurate description of him or not. I used to work with a guy that was like that though, had to challenge anything and everything you had to say or idea you had. Then turn it around to his way. He viewed everything from his own position. But I can not say he wasn't smart, though I still work there and he doesn't, so he might have outsmarted himself that time.

[nyiregyhazi]

Very well put, and your analysis is on point.

However bullying is not cool, and that is what "Nyiregyhazi" is.  He is an (and this is a compliment) intellectual bully, who spends most of his days harassing pianists on this website.

It is high time we fight back.  Otherwise, every single time any one posts a response, Nyiregyhazi will respond, and respond, and respond!

Think about it.

If you want to be a voice of puritanism, you can start by acting like one.

David Helfgott is a spastic lunatic who cannot even play a scale without being on his meds.  This nut job went out on tour, charging $50 a ticket for his recitals, and wherever he performed about half of the audience got up and walked out.  

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to hold back about the honest truth in an open thread for discussion. Either Outin can shoot the messenger or she can consider that the very real problem of that dichotomy she spoke of only occurs if you don't know how to instill the right links within your preparation. It's not random chance. You only have to choose between seemingly separate things if you have not learned how to intertwine them. Pianists make their own destiny. Realising that something was not perfect (after ending up in a situation where things went horribly wrong) is the first step towards improvement and towards protecting yourself from such experiences in the future. Getting defensive only protects limitations and keeps doors closed. The point where someone assumes that (merely due to their own limited experience) musicality and awareness are conflicting things is not one where I am going to pretend to agree to disagree, for the sake of politeness towards one person. I care too much about music to pretend that is an accurate view- rather than a misapprehension that stems from limited experience of linking them up suitably.

[dima_76557]

However bullying is not cool, and that is what "Nyiregyhazi" is.  He is an (and this is a compliment) intellectual bully, who spends most of his days harassing pianists on this website.

It is high time we fight back.  Otherwise, every single time any one posts a response, Nyiregyhazi will respond, and respond, and respond!

Think about it.

All N is saying is that excessive nervousness *can* very much be the (conditioned) result of bad habits; a vicious circle that is hard to break. If that is the case (and it takes a sharp mind and a good deal of honesty towards oneself to admit that), then all suggested "remedies" in this thread are off target. This is a valuable point of view that should not be withheld from being posted. If N.'s concepts are too hard to take or grasp, or too confronting maybe, do not respond. It's that simple. Peace to all.

[pianoplunker]

All N is saying is that excessive nervousness *can* very much be the (conditioned) result of bad habits; a vicious circle that is hard to break. If that is the case (and it takes a sharp mind and a good deal of honesty towards oneself to admit that), then all suggested "remedies" in this thread are off target. This is a valuable point of view that should not be withheld from being posted. If N.'s concepts are too hard to take or grasp, or too confronting maybe, do not respond. It's that simple. Peace to all.

I didnt follow the entire thread but the argument as I understand is that Dr. N is saying that you cannot win simply by trying not to lose. Especially if you are going far enough to take drugs in an effort not to lose. I already posted my thought about it and not trying to defend anyone but I do think this individual has a good point. Although maybe too many notes !

[j_menz]

too many notes !

Joseph II of Austria (*) has instructed me to seek a small payment from you for your use of his line.

* More formally, His Imperial Majesty The Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II, by the grace of God elected Holy Roman Emperor, forever August, King of Germany, Jerusalem, Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia and Lodomeria, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Burgundy, Lorraine, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Grand Duke of Tuscany, Grand Prince of Transylvania, Duke of Brabant, Limburg, Luxembourg, Gelderland, Württemberg, the Upper and Lower Silesia, Milan, Mantua, Parma, Piacenza, Guastalla, Auschwitz, Zator, Calabria, Bar, Montferrat, Teschen, Prince of Swabia, Charleville, Princely Count of Habsburg, Flanders, Tyrol, Hennegau, Kyburg, Gorizia, Gradisca, Margrave of Antwerp, Burgau, the Upper and Lower Lusatia, Pont-à-Mousson, Nomeny, Moravia, Count of Namur, Provence, Vaudémont, Blâmont, Zutphen, Saarwerden, Salm, Falkenstein, Lord of the Wendish March and Mechelen.

[dima_76557]

Dr. N

Hahaha! I like that.

I must admit that Dr. N.'s medicine may have a suspicious smell for some, but I highly prefer his healthy approach to the Inderal/Propanolol variant proposed by some other "doctors" on here, especially after a thorough read of the possible side effects (I did a search concerning the precautions and warnings). I'd rather admit that I am not up to the task of performing than swallow any of those blockers.

[pianoplunker]

Joseph II of Austria (*) has instructed me to seek a small payment from you for your use of his line.

* More formally, His Imperial Majesty The Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II, by the grace of God elected Holy Roman Emperor, forever August, King of Germany, Jerusalem, Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia and Lodomeria, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Burgundy, Lorraine, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Grand Duke of Tuscany, Grand Prince of Transylvania, Duke of Brabant, Limburg, Luxembourg, Gelderland, Württemberg, the Upper and Lower Silesia, Milan, Mantua, Parma, Piacenza, Guastalla, Auschwitz, Zator, Calabria, Bar, Montferrat, Teschen, Prince of Swabia, Charleville, Princely Count of Habsburg, Flanders, Tyrol, Hennegau, Kyburg, Gorizia, Gradisca, Margrave of Antwerp, Burgau, the Upper and Lower Lusatia, Pont-à-Mousson, Nomeny, Moravia, Count of Namur, Provence, Vaudémont, Blâmont, Zutphen, Saarwerden, Salm, Falkenstein, Lord of the Wendish March and Mechelen.

Uh Oh, I was not trying to start a revolution here. I was planning on next week :-)

[pianoplunker]

Hahaha! I like that.

I must admit that Dr. N.'s medicine may have a suspicious smell for some, but I highly prefer his healthy approach to the Inderal/Propanolol variant proposed by some other "doctors" on here, especially after a thorough read of the possible side effects (I did a search concerning the precautions and warnings). I'd rather admit that I am not up to the task of performing than swallow any of those blockers.

Exactly, a good teacher will tell you if you are ready, not just condone a drug because you feel nervous.  You have to understand nervous when it comes to playing piano in front of people. Nervous happens because we care and it should be embraced, not feared.

[outin]

Refusing to clarify your stance neither assists a sincere discussion nor the problem you have said you have. Do you want to take steps to solve that problem or is winning an argument a greater priority?

You have your own understanding of people's problems and your advice is of use only when it's applicable. Don't expect everyone to be wrapped up in their own problems and experiences, it is actually possible to see things from different viewpoints if you just keep an open mind. You do make some good points in your posts, but they are often lost since you seem to think everyone else is completely ignorant and so you don't even notice that you just keep repeating things that are already taken by granted by the other party.

Unlike some I am not here to win an argument. However it is difficult to have an intelligent conversation with someone who does not always seem to understand the difference between an example and proof. While an example can sometimes be used as proof of the failings (or limitations) of a theory, it can not be used as a proof in the way you so often tend to do. When I use an example it's just an example, it's there to elucidate something only. What I am really trying to say I say on a more abstract level. I may or may not be able to make it understood to everyone with the amount of words and time I want to use. Some people will understand and some others won't. I accept that.

Decided to edit my post. After all you asked so nicely and I have a few moments to spare, so I will try once more to clarify

The premise in my posts was that people (not all of them necessarily, but many) do get into situations when they are suddenly faced with a failure of one or several parts of their system (it may be from nerves, but it can also be because of illness, medication, a mental issue or something else). When one is well prepared one is usually able to compensate for the failure to some extend but IMO it would be ridiculous to claim one can prepare for everything and that the performance can be as good as it would be on a day when one is "normal".

You seem to use the term musicality differently than me. For me musicality in playing means simply to create in reality the musical ideas one has in one's head. Part of that comes from the composer (the score), but the rest comes from one's own (or borrowed) musical vision or ideas. The possibilities are almost infinite and the ideas do not have to constantly stay the same, even with one piece. To get to this requires a lot of preparation but it also requires high level of concentration on the spot and good control of one's playing apparatus. If those are missing, there's simply no way one could pull off as a high level performance as normally, unless one is a seasoned professional. And even with them people seem to notice the difference. So it's quite clearly not possible for everybody who wants to play the piano, but cannot spend several hours daily for full concentrated practice and perform regularly, to pull of what a professional can.

If you do not agree with my premise at all, believing instead that all people can always consistently bring out their musical visions, if they use the correct practice tools, please just say so. In that case there's no sense in continuing the argument at all. Neither of us could really prove our premise.

But if you just don't want to talk about the performance situation at all but rather talk about practice habits, which are obviously very important for the damage control, we are not even on the same topic. So it's no surprise we cannot get anywhere.

[hfmadopter]

Exactly, a good teacher will te you if you are ready, not just condone a drug because you feel nervous.  You have to understand nervous when it comes to playing piano in front of people. Nervous happens because we care and it should be embraced, not feared.

I revert back to my much earlier post, the nerves begin to subside when you really know your music and have more experience playing in front of people. Way back decades ago my teacher's approach to nerves was to assign you little performances around town. To set up duets with another pianist to be performed in a month or two in front of her monthly work shop attendees. This began in the beginning by agreeing to attend these work shops. I speak from experience when I say you become more secure in your playing in front of people in this way. No drugs, everyone today wants a pill for something, drugs were not even a thought back then by my teacher. I won't say you cured yourself 100% of any nervousness but it was controllable and understandable.

[nyiregyhazi]

You have your own understanding of people's problems and your advice is of use only when it's applicable.

Exactly who is exempt from the rule that preparation determines readiness? I didn't present any universally applicable short term advice. I said that if you want music and awareness to go hand in hand, you must prepare suitably. Otherwise they may indeed feel contradictory. That is the crux.

Incidentally, it strikes me that it's never true that awareness is the real problem. When someone is secure in what they are doing deep down, awareness of the notes cannot possibly distract from ingrained musical intentions that are linked to those notes (which are what actually define the music). The problem is when you are DOUBTING whether what you are visualising and aware of is actually right or not and concentrating on not going wrong. This is when self analysis hinders rather than complements (although the long term answer is not to try not to notice so you stop doubting, but to become more deeply secure about the notes so you no longer doubt yourself by noticing them).

Don't expect everyone to be wrapped up in their own problems and experiences, it is actually possible to see things from different viewpoints if you just keep an open mind. You expect everyone to be wrapped up in their own problems and experiences, it is actually possible to see things from different viewpoints if you just keep an open mind. You do make some good points in your posts, but they are often lost since you seem to think everyone else is completely ignorant and so you don't even notice that you just keep repeating things that are already taken by granted by the other party.

Ahem, have you forgotten that this is an open public discussion rather than a private conversation? I'm sorry it offends your ego to hear things that you knew already within my sincere personal thoughts, but my reply wasn't exclusively aimed at you alone. And it's not uncommon for it to be necessary to reestablish a point before going to a more important follow up. If you can drop your ego enough not to feel affronted by hearing something you knew, you may find that wasn't actually the crux anyway- as you're clearly not on the same page regarding any of the points that I'm actually placing the importance on.


.

When one is well prepared one is usually able to compensate for the failure to some extend but IMO it would be ridiculous to claim one can prepare for everything and that the performance can be as good as it would be on a day when one is "normal"..

Nobody ever said that. However, you spoke of a situation where thinking about music broke down the notes and they wouldn't come back. Mercifully I've never been there in a concert situation, but I know what's it's like as well as anyone to have that happen. It happens in places where I didn't know the notes properly and was just cruising on habits. No other attitude will benefit- especially not one that involves external excuses or takes blame away from my preparation. Don't ever use the fact that you can't be perfect to absolve your preparation of blame for major issues. Trying to protect yourself that way perpetuates faults. Accepting responsibility gives you the chance to improve things positively in the future.

You seem to use the term musicality differently than me. For me musicality in playing means simply to create in reality the musical ideas one has in one's head. Part of that comes from the composer (the score), but the rest comes from one's own (or borrowed) musical vision or ideas. The possibilities are almost infinite and the ideas do not have to constantly stay the same, even with one piece. To get to this requires a lot of preparation but it also requires high level of concentration on the spot and good control of one's playing apparatus. If those are missing, there's simply no way one could pull off as a high level performance as normally, unless one is a seasoned professional.

Professionals aren't magic. They learned associations between music and the notes. Preparation did that. Don't make excuses based on the short term. Think about how to prepare. If I see two note slurred sigh in music, I will not tolerate anything less than a musically shaped execution in practise. For that reason, it takes a severe lapse for me to miss one in concert- not some kind of extreme concentration. It's a simple association of habit. People who don't put music into habits have to concentrate far too hard. Whatever you say, nothing is going to change the fact that preparation is what sets a pianist up. Don't put concert pianists on some kind of pedestal, as if to say that they are different with magical powers. Plenty of amateurs successfully link music and technique too.

And even with them people seem to notice the difference. So it's quite clearly not possible for everybody who wants to play the piano, but cannot spend several hours daily for full concentrated practice and perform regularly, to pull of what a professional can.

That's a classic self fulfilling prophecy. Stop looking for excuses and ask what you can improve in HOW you practise. Are you trying to protect your right to be put into situations where you have to choose between music and security? Or do you want to learn to avoid them (as plenty of people who are not concert artists succeed in doing).

If you do not agree with my premise at all, believing instead that all people can always consistently bring out their musical visions, if they use the correct practice tools, please just say so.

Had I not before?

But if you just don't want to talk about the performance situation at all but rather talk about practice habits, which are obviously very important for the damage control, we are not even on the same topic. So it's no surprise we cannot get anywhere.

Why? Do you have an upcoming performance today and no chance to practise before? If not, let's talk about what actually matters, rather than damage limitation during a concert (where it's already too late to do anything about improper groundwork).

[outin]

^ Yes, this is a public forum but your posts are supposed to be answers to mine. Yet again you could not make a coherent answer without including unnecessary rubbish and putting ideas in my head that never where there. That's what you do. It's a pity really. If you learned to write and discuss things in a better way, people might actually benefit from your posts.

My ego is well, but my reason tells me I've said enough

[nyiregyhazi]

^ Yes, this is a public forum but your posts are supposed to be answers to mine. Yet again you could not make a coherent answer without including unnecessary rubbish and putting ideas in my head that never where there. That's what you do. It's a pity really. If you learned to write and discuss things in a better way, people might actually benefit from your posts.

My ego is well, but my reason tells me I've said enough

Your ego is clearly quite sufficient  to try to tell people what they are and are not allowed to speak about during replies to you. There's no forum rule about being banned from exploring wider issues within replies.

If you're just going to dismiss it as unnecessary rubbish then there is nothing further to discuss. If you feel that you know best in the long run then use that to get yourself into a situation where you have the ability to reliably link musicality without feeling compromised technically. When you have been able to do so then you'll be in a position to have an informed opinion about what is and isn't necessary to take into account, in order to succeed. I suggest you also test your methods by teaching students. If you can live without solutions then forget results and instead continue to get defensive and pretend that those who succeed are simply different and did not get there through more appropriate preparations- so you can hang on to the excuses for why things don't work as you please, rather than proceed forwards.

As they say in the SAS, you fall to the level of your training. When what you fall to is deemed inadequate, it's time to look to your training. There's a reason why advice given to first time marathon runners is primarily about training rather than merely the right psychology for the day. Piano is really not so different, even if the issues are neurological rather than stamina related.

The only idea I have attributed to you was the one you said straight up-which is that pragmatic awareness conflicts with musicality. As I told you straight up- that's purely a situation that is created by failure to make proper links during preparations. Balanced training both provides technical anchors and attaches musical shaping to the default movements for execution.

[outin]

There's no forum rule about being banned from exploring wider issues within replies.

Of course not and I would not wish so.

If you're just going to dismiss it as unnecessary rubbish then there is nothing further to discuss.

Exploring wider issues was not what I referred as rubbish. Most of us do that.

The only idea I have attributed to you was the one you said straight up-which is that pragmatic awareness conflicts with musicality.

Those are your words, not mine. I do not make such generalizations. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Of course not and I would not wish so.
Exploring wider issues was not what I referred as rubbish. Most of us do that.Those are your words, not mine. I do not make such generalizations.  

This is going nowhere of interest. All you are declaring is your lack of interest in exploring long term solutions to your problems- without any thought provoking counterarguments. That's fine for your personal decisions (if you're happy to end up forced to compromise between musical intentions and security again) but it is not conducive to an interesting discussion. If you don't want any solutions then nobody can force you to consider alternatives to the approach that put you in the position you described. Anyway, you can deny it as vehemently as you like but I'll quote you a third and final time:

 "We are back to either not performing at all, letting things fall apart or playing overly carefully allowing one to be conscious of more details, even when it leads to a decline in musical depth (obviously not to a complete lack of musicality)."


You need to be in a position of appreciating how to link music and technique (both by experience of success and failure) before you can appreciate the above only applies in the moment before a performance THAT HAS NOT BEEN OPTIMALLY PREPARED. Appreciating that, rather than dwelling on the undesirable moment itself, is how you move on and learn. Although it's always interesting to discover how things appear through another person's view, you are simply not in a position to understand the wider issues until you have started achieving reliable successes (which will not be achieved via short term psychology but by long term preparation issues). Stop being closed minded and be humble enough to appreciate that you are only in the earlier stages of mastering the piano, and you'll discover that exploring solutions is vastly more productive than hanging on to excuses and insisting that things that we can shape and develop are always going to be as they currently seem. After surving an undesirable situation, how to avoid ever being there again via long term methods is virtually the only thing worthy of consideration.

[pianoplunker]

I revert back to my much earlier post, the nerves begin to subside when you really know your music and have more experience playing in front of people. Way back decades ago my teacher's approach to nerves was to assign you little performances around town. To set up duets with another pianist to be performed in a month or two in front of her monthly work shop attendees. This began in the beginning by agreeing to attend these work shops. I speak from experience when I say you become more secure in your playing in front of people in this way. No drugs, everyone today wants a pill for something, drugs were not even a thought back then by my teacher. I won't say you cured yourself 100% of any nervousness but it was controllable and understandable.

 Once you realize that nervousness is really just anticipation and energy then it can actually increase your focus which is not a bad thing.  Piano performance aside, athletes experience nervousness as well.  Try playing a championship baseball game, and you are the last batter with a runner on third base . You wiff , your team loses, you hit , your team wins. 5000 people watching. Nervous- yes. But I was just as nervous playing at a recital in front of a dozen of my peers.

[outin]

This is going nowhere of interest.

Couldn't agree more!

Anyway, you can deny it as vehemently as you like but I'll quote you a third and final time: "We are back to either not performing at all, letting things fall apart or playing overly carefully allowing one to be conscious of more details, even when it leads to a decline in musical depth (obviously not to a complete lack of musicality)."

Do you have a problem with understanding written text? You keep quoting me and then claim I said something else. Where did I say that pragmatic awaress conflicts with musicality? The above quote was about what to do when one is not able to handle what one normally can and is required to leave out something from the equation. THAT is what conflicts with musicality. Maybe you cannot imagine such circumstances, but anyone with normal intelligence realize they do exist, so why bother continuing this? Is it simply to have the last word?

The fact that you are calling me close minded just makes you seem ridiculous.

... the above only applies in the moment before a performance THAT HAS NOT BEEN OPTIMALLY PREPARED.

This is where you are simply wrong. How much depends on what you think "optimally prepared" means. You cannot show any proof otherwise, so it is in fact you who should be more humble.

It would actually be quite easy (but unethical) to prove you wrong. Just take someone really well prepared and toxicate him before a performance and see what happens...

[nyiregyhazi]

Couldn't agree more!



Do you have a problem with understanding written text? You keep quoting me and then claim I said something else. Where did I say that pragmatic awaress conflicts with musicality? The above quote was about what to do when one is not able to handle what one normally can and is required to leave out something from the equation. THAT is what conflicts with musicality. Maybe you cannot imagine such circumstances, but anyone with normal intelligence realize they do exist, so why bother continuing this? Is it simply to have the last word?

The fact that you are calling me close minded just makes you seem ridiculous.
This is where you are simply wrong. How much depends on what you think "optimally prepared" means. You cannot show any proof otherwise, so it is in fact you who should be more humble.

You posted that AFTER I made it abundantly clear that no such situation should be allowed to arise and that I was talking about future prevention. I'd already said that you can do what you can to survive as a one off and then look to the the REAL problems straight after. Do you want to dwell on assumption of that happening or do you want to look at practical prevention for the the next time? It's like obsessing over what to do if you fall out of a plane without a parachute rather than focusing on learning to pack one that is in full working order and remembering to actually put it on.

If you know what optimally prepared means, demonstrate it by becoming a pianist who is both musical and technically reliable. If you think kidding yourself that you had put yourself in a perfect situation with flawless methods (and assuming that things broke down merely because of some bizarre random chances) is going to help, then you'll certainly need to keep dwelling on that situation- because that attitude is exactly why will you be in that situation again. When things don't work, ask what you can prepare better- not what excuses can you come up with to protect the assumption that your groundwork was infallible. Labouring on short term manifestations of problems and refusing to consider accountability for anything that could have been prepared better is not how a pianist either betters themself or becomes equipped to enter a situation with meaningful confidence.

As I said before, if you are confident that (as an inexperienced and relative newcomer to the piano) you know all about the best methods for preparation, publish a book on piano practise and become a professional teacher. Otherwise learn some humility and use that to search out the various methods (from experienced professionals who have succeeded and taught students to succeed) about improving your procedures for the better in the future.

[nyiregyhazi]

It would actually be quite easy (but unethical) to prove you wrong. Just take someone really well prepared and toxicate him before a performance and see what happens...

Actually, that's a superb example. Have you read James Francis Cooke's interviews with great pianists? There's one he doesn't name (who is suspected to be friedheim) that he speaks of going to interview. He was too drunk to be interviewed but went to the piano and threw off some extremely treacherous skips without missing a note-until he fell off the piano stool.

[outin]

You posted that AFTER I made it abundantly clear that no such situation should be allowed to arise and that I was talking about prevention.

Just like I posted the things you quoted BEFORE you had made it clear that YOU have decided we must only discuss how to optimally prepare for a performance. For some reason you felt the need to  claim I am somehow against doing that. It is simply too ridiculous an argument in my mind to even bother to deny. And you've made other claims just as far from the truth based on mistaken assumptions you made from my posts. I know from experience that it's not worth to try to correct them all because there will be many more on your next post. I simply decided to stay on the topic I brought up, whether you like it or not.

We can surely agree that one should do everything in one's power to prepare as well as possible for any kind of performance. But should one not perform at all when not "optimally prepared" or when the situation is againts succeeding regardless, is a valid question. I personally do not need to really make such decisions on playing the piano. I've made those many times in other things though. I know how it is to sing with a flu, I may have had ready and prepared a much better performance, but ended up pulling back to get through. I have not seen how it would be different with piano playing.

Do you want to dwell on assumption of that happening or do you want to look at practical prevention? It's like obsessing over what to do if you fall out of a plane without a parachute rather than focusing on learning to pack one that is in full working order and to actually put it on.

If you know what optimally prepared means, demonstrate it by becoming a pianist who is both musical and technically reliable. If you think kidding yourself that you had put yourself in a perfect situation with flawless methods (and assuming that things broke down merely because of some bizarre random chances) is going to help, then you'll certainly need to keep dwelling on that situation- because that attitude is exactly why will you be in that situation again. When things don't work, ask what you can prepare better- not what excuses can you come up with to protect the assumption that nothing could have been prepared better. Labouring in short term manifestations of problems and refusing to consider accountability for anything that could have been prepared better is not how a pianist either betters themself or becomes equipped to enter a situation with meaningful confidence.

What ever made you think this was about me? I was never dwelling on anything, just presenting different viewpoints. That's called conversation, and it doesn't always have to revolve around oneself.

And what makes you think I am not aware of some good methods to prepare a performance? Or that I do not use the same methods to learn pieces in general? Have you observed me preparing or practicing anything?

I do know what optimally prepared means for me. I just wasn't sure what it means to you after some of the weird arguments you made.

As I said before, if you are confident that (as an experienced and relative newcomer to the piano) you know all about the best methods for preparation, publish a book on piano practise and become a professional teacher. Otherwise learn some humility and use that to start improving your procedures for the better.

Above is a good example of what I referred to when I talked about rubbish. Why would I need to write a book? I have read a lot of books about playing the piano and preparing a performance, some good and some less. If by humility you mean being aware of the amount of things still to learn, then I have plenty. I also have a fair amount of objectivity, which unfortunately is not that common in people. But maybe for you humility means something completely different: One should not question or disagree with anything YOU write no matter how illogical, subjective or one-sided one thinks it is. If so, I have none  

[nyiregyhazi]

Just like I posted the things you quoted BEFORE you had made it clear that YOU have decided we must only discuss how to optimally prepare for a performance. For some reason you felt the need to  claim I am somehow against doing that. It is simply too ridiculous an argument in my mind to even bother to deny. And you've made other claims just as far from the truth based on mistaken assumptions you made from my posts. I know from experience that it's not worth to try to correct them all because there will be many more on your next post. I simply decided to stay on the topic I brought up, whether you like it or not.

We can surely agree that one should do everything in one's power to prepare as well as possible for any kind of performance. But should one not perform at all when not "optimally prepared" or when the situation is againts succeeding regardless, is a valid question. I personally do not need to really make such decisions on playing the piano. I've made those many times in other things though. I know how it is to sing with a flu, I may have had ready and prepared a much better performance, but ended up pulling back to get through. I have not seen how it would be different with piano playing.

What ever made you think this was about me? I was never dwelling on anything, just presenting different viewpoints. That's called conversation, and it doesn't always have to revolve around oneself.

And what makes you think I am not aware of some good methods to prepare a performance? Or that I do not use the same methods to learn pieces in general? Have you observed me preparing or practicing anything?

I do know what optimally prepared means for me. I just wasn't sure what it means to you after some of the weird arguments you made.


Above is a good example of what I referred to when I talked about rubbish. Why would I need to write a book? I have read a lot of books about playing the piano and preparing a performance, some good and some less. If by humility you mean being aware of the amount of things still to learn, then I have plenty. I also have a fair amount of objectivity, which unfortunately is not that common in people. But maybe for you humility means something completely different: One should not question or disagree with anything YOU write no matter how illogical, subjective or one-sided one thinks it is. If so, I have none  

Yes, problem followed by solution is the natural order of discussion. You kept dragging it back to the problem in a reversal of the natural order of progression, rather than engage in discussion regarding solutions. That is not productive as a discussion and it is not how problems are solved pianistically. If you want to stick with problems then fine, but there's no value in trying to discuss solutions with someone who is not open to the fact that their practise may not be perfect.

PS If you're objective, then ask yourself the objective question as to how an optimally prepared performance falls apart altogether because someone tried to make it musical (which is the purpose of music making and what musicians practise for). This is what's known as cognitive dissonance and it's entirely emotive, not objective. Look at yourself as from an outsider's point of view and you'll start to see things differently. I can't try to discuss this any further when you can only experience it quite so subjectively, and without reliable experience of finding the ingredients for consistent success. All you are doing here is repeating a problem and refusing to consider solutions, without even having any of your own to bring to the table. I won't waste any further time.

[outin]

If you want to stick with problems then fine, but there's no value in trying to discuss solutions with someone who is not open to the fact that their practise may not be perfect.

Then by all means stop doing that with that theoretical person

PS If you're objective, then ask yourself the objective question as to how an optimally prepared performance falls apart altogether because someone tried to make it musical (which the is the purpose of music making). This what's known as cognitive dissonance and it's not objective. Look at yourself as from an outsider's point of view and you'll start to see things differently.

That's one more good example of rubbish: Create a somewhat ridiculous or impossible argument by using parts of what someone wrote and then ask them to defend it. That is a known strategy of yours to avoid answering any criticism or conflicting questions. I seriously recommend you to take your own advice.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'll simply state one last time that if the only way to keep notes on track is to strip any of the musicality, music and technique have not  been associated adequately in practice (and the notes are probably not known as well as they should be deep down, either). If you want to labour under the belief that practice which has not linked the physical execution to the musical intention can be considered as optimal practise, see how far it takes you in your next performance. Optimal practise has been done when to think about the notes IS to think about the musical intent and cannot be separated. Success of musical execution is a separate issue, but true intentions can never be stripped from the notes. To think of notes is to think of music, when they are linked.

[hfmadopter]

Once you realize that nervousness is really just anticipation and energy then it can actually increase your focus which is not a bad thing.  Piano performance aside, athletes experience nervousness as well.  Try playing a championship baseball game, and you are the last batter with a runner on third base . You wiff , your team loses, you hit , your team wins. 5000 people watching. Nervous- yes. But I was just as nervous playing at a recital in front of a dozen of my peers.

Of course there are different forms of nervousness, we can't paint with too broad a brush here.

[outin]

I'll simply state one last time that if the only way to keep notes on track is to strip any of the musicality, music and technique have not  been associated adequately in practice (and the notes are probably not known as well as they should be deep down, either). If you want to labour under the belief that practice which has not linked the physical execution to the musical intention can be considered as optimal practise, see how far it takes you in your next performance. Optimal practise has been done when to think about the notes IS to think about the musical intent and cannot be separated. Success of musical execution is a separate issue, but true intentions can never be stripped from the notes. To think of notes is to think of music, when they are linked.

You just can't stop, can you?

You need not worry at all about the way I labour. I have a teacher whose method is based on NEVER to just learn the notes and try to add musicality later. So even if I wanted to I would not be allowed to work that way.

[nyiregyhazi]

You just can't stop, can you?

You need not worry at all about the way I labour. I have a teacher whose method is based on NEVER to just learn the notes and try to add musicality later. So even if I wanted to I would not be allowed to work that way.

I'm pleased to hear that, but remember that linking it to awareness of the notes was the key. If thinking about the notes doesn't consistently trigger that full musical conception (which you said it didn't in your example) it's simply not the inseparable link I spoke of. It's just a musical autopilot. That autopilot needs to be what you can fall back on to maintain musicality if you lose awareness of the notes, not the driving force. By definition, if thinking about the notes does not trigger the musical conception, the link has not been completed. When it has, thinking about the notes simply CANNOT interfere with musical conception. Only uncertainty about them can interfere.

I really don't know how this is even controversial. Does anyone think a professional artist cannot link musicianship to awareness of the construction of the pieces they play? It's awareness of chromatic intervals that informs the voicing of harmonies. If a link isn't in place, it's because practise failed to instil it. This isn't rocket science.

[louispodesta]

Are you all brain dead?  Do you not know when you are being "played/used" by Nyiregyhazi?

He will say whatever is necessary to sound caring and always insightful.  However, if you monitor this post (and his other posts), the man is a pianist TR0LLER!!!

This man has no peer reviewed treatise on piano technique.  And, until Pianostreet decided to give him free reign, no one had ever heard of him.

[hfmadopter]

Are you all brain dead?  Do you not know when you are being "played/used" by Nyiregyhazi?

He will say whatever is necessary to sound caring and always insightful.  However, if you monitor this post (and his other posts), the man is a pianist TR0LLER!!!

This man has no peer reviewed treatise on piano technique.  And, until Pianostreet decided to give him free reign, no one had ever heard of him.

This thread has the most views in the forum though for currently running threads. Last I looked it was up to 2130 views. Someone is interested in it.

[nyiregyhazi]

Are you all brain dead?  Do you not know when you are being "played/used" by Nyiregyhazi?

He will say whatever is necessary to sound caring and always insightful.  However, if you monitor this post (and his other posts), the man is a pianist TR0LLER!!!

This man has no peer reviewed treatise on piano technique.  And, until Pianostreet decided to give him free reign, no one had ever heard of him.

Last time I checked, having an opinion about the fact that awareness of notes of notes and musicality can be linked does not fall under the definition of trolling. Writing posts that are specifically intended to target the character of a poster (without making topical points) does fall under the definition, however.

[j_menz]

This thread has the most views in the forum though for currently running threads. Last I looked it was up to 2130 views. Someone is interested in it.

Rumour has it some psych class has it as a case study. 

[hfmadopter]

Rumour has it some psych class has it as a case study. 

Makes sense now. I was beginning to wonder if N is a computer generated poster put on here by PS to keep the viewer ratings up.

[hardy_practice]

This man has no peer reviewed treatise on piano technique.  And, until Pianostreet decided to give him free reign, no one had ever heard of him.

He was banned from Piano World years ago.

[outin]

I'm pleased to hear that, but remember that linking it to awareness of the notes was the key. If thinking about the notes doesn't consistently trigger that full musical conception (which you said it didn't in your example) it's simply not the inseparable link I spoke of. It's just a musical autopilot. That autopilot needs to be what you can fall back on to maintain musicality if you lose awareness of the notes, not the driving force. By definition, if thinking about the notes does not trigger the musical conception, the link has not been completed. When it has, thinking about the notes simply CANNOT interfere with musical conception. Only uncertainty about them can interfere.

I really don't know how this is even controversial. Does anyone think a professional artist cannot link musicianship to awareness of the construction of the pieces they play? It's awareness of chromatic intervals that informs the voicing of harmonies. If a link isn't in place, it's because practise failed to instil it. This isn't rocket science.

This is probably the most reasonable and to the point post you have made in this thread, even with the unnecessary punch in the end.

This is what happened here: I used an anecdote from one single lesson to illustrate something in a general discussion. Whether successfully or not is open to debate. It's also open to debate whether what I was trying to illustrate is true or not. You jumped into conclusions and decided in your head that *I* have this big attitude problem about my piano learning. Could you admit that you might have got it wrong or simply just let it be since there's no way of you knowing for sure? No, that's not you. Instead of simply staying on the subject and defend your views in a rational neutral way (which you should be able to do if your view is worth something) you could not let go of this idea of my "problem" and just kept on writing about it as if it was some kind of a fact. Now why would you do that? To help someone? Or is it simply because you need something like this to blow your own horn or you feel threatened by people having conflicting views from yours? You may think it makes you look smart, but it really doesn't. 

[nyiregyhazi]

He was banned from Piano World years ago.

Whereas you've been from both piano world and twice from here.

[nyiregyhazi]

This is probably the most reasonable and to the point post you have made in this thread, even with the unnecessary punch in the end.

This is what happened here: I used an anecdote from one single lesson to illustrate something in a general discussion. Whether successfully or not is open to debate. It's also open to debate whether what I was trying to illustrate is true or not. You jumped into conclusions and decided in your head that *I* have this big attitude problem about my piano learning. Could you admit that you might have got it wrong or simply just let it be since there's no way of you knowing for sure? No, that's not you. Instead of simply staying on the subject and defend your views in a rational neutral way (which you should be able to do if your view is worth something) you could not let go of this idea of my "problem" and just kept on writing about it as if it was some kind of a fact. Now why would you do that? To help someone? Or is it simply because you need something like this to blow your own horn or you feel threatened by people having conflicting views from yours? You may think it makes you look smart, but it really doesn't. 

I made the same point I made all along- that situations are the product of preparation, yours included. If you can keep an open mind and work from the basis of assuming that are ways in which you can actually do better, you'll see that all I was doing was clarifying the fact that methods are available.

[outin]

- that situations are the product of preparation, yours included.

I guess that statement demonstrates the difference between us, you like to confine and simplify to find single solutions, whilst I am more interested in the broader picture and how different aspects interact. The complexity of reality is what intrigues me. I am not saying your  statement is wrong, it just isn't the whole picture.

[nyiregyhazi]

I guess that statement demonstrates the difference between us, you like to confine and simplify to find single solutions, whilst I am more interested in the broader picture and how different aspects interact. The complexity of reality is what intrigues me. I am not saying your  statement is wrong, it just isn't the whole picture.

That's somewhat ironic- given that what I said is that it's necessary to have prepared by linking awareness of the notes to the musical intent, in order for them to feel complementary rather than contradictory. If you should find a way of playing musically and reliably without making a point of connecting these aspects in your preparations please let us know about it.

[brogers70]

This thread has the most views in the forum though for currently running threads. Last I looked it was up to 2130 views. Someone is interested in it.

There's a certain morbid fascination in watching the interminable wrangling.

[louispodesta]

He was banned from Piano World years ago.

Thank you for the information.  However, me thinks that a European "devil may care" attitude allows Nyiregyhazi to infest this website.

That is sad because my experience has shown me that Pianostreet is heads and tails above Pianoworld, when it comes to intelligent civil discourse.

[nyiregyhazi]

Thank you for the information.  However, me thinks that a European "devil may care" attitude allows Nyiregyhazi to infest this website.

That is sad because my experience has shown me that Pianostreet is heads and tails above Pianoworld, when it comes to intelligent civil discourse.

Louis, I'm afraid you lost any hope of high moral ground when you referred to Helfgott as a "spastic lunatic". If you want to talk about intelligent civil discourse then start by considering your own behaviour.

[hardy_practice]

Louis, I'm afraid you lost any hope of high moral ground when you referred to Helfgott as a "spastic lunatic". If you want to talk about intelligent civil discourse then start by considering your own behaviour.

No one's questioning anyone's morals here, in your case it's about misinformation - and bags of it handed out so high-handedly!

[louispodesta]

No one's questioning anyone's morals here, in your case it's about misinformation - and bags of it handed out so high-handedly!

Very well put.  The Greek word is hubris/hybris, which means over-weaning pride and arrogance.  That is the behavior consistently manifested by nyiregyhazi .

As an Aspy, I fall into a totally different category.

In regards Senor Helfgott, spasticity is a physical condition which manifests itself in sometimes uncontrollable jerking movements.  Lunacy is when someone is neuro-physiologically unable to function on a normal, day to day level.

David Helfgott fits the bill.  He is not allowed to drive a car or shave himself in the morning because without medication he cannot adequately control his musco-skeletal bodily functions.

If he had gone out on tour and presented himself as such, I personally would be singing his praises.  However, he and his wife/nurse presented this man (through film, and recorded, and live performances) as a legitimate concert pianist.

That means that they ripped-off a whole lot of people for a whole lot of money, while millions of hard working pianists throughout the world can't get arrested when it comes to major media exposure.

[nyiregyhazi]

Very well put.  The Greek word is hubris/hybris, which means over-weaning pride and arrogance.  That is the behavior consistently manifested by nyiregyhazi .

As an Aspy, I fall into a totally different category.

In regards Senor Helfgott, spasticity is a physical condition which manifests itself in sometimes uncontrollable jerking movements.  Lunacy is when someone is neuro-physiologically unable to function on a normal, day to day level.

David Helfgott fits the bill.  He is not allowed to drive a car or shave himself in the morning because without medication he cannot adequately control his musco-skeletal bodily functions.

If he had gone out on tour and presented himself as such, I personally would be singing his praises.  However, he and his wife/nurse presented this man (through film, and recorded, and live performances) as a legitimate concert pianist.

That means that they ripped-off a whole lot of people for a whole lot of money, while millions of hard working pianists throughout the world can't get arrested when it comes to major media exposure.

Spastic evolved into what is now an offensive term of abuse. I believe that lunatic is also considered offensive when used in relation to people with genuine mental disorders, rather than colloquially. If you're claiming naivety, I suggest you look to the former Spastic's society who had to change their name to Scope and who distance themself massively from the word now. You might as well be claiming the N word is merely a suitable descriptive word to use in reference to black people and thus fine. If you're seriously unaware of the connotations, I sincerely suggest you learn them before preaching about civility.

Also, you're repeating the contradiction of calling him both of less than sound mind and a knowing fraud. I suggest you pick one angle and stick to it without self contradiction.