Why are the greatest composers always men??

[quantum]

This may also beg the question of historical record: did the socio-political issues of the past influence the manner in which women composers were written into history?  If so, how has such record influenced our current day knowledge on women composers of past centuries? 

[m1469]

This may also beg the question of historical record:  

What in this world doesn't?

I must have missed it.  Is this topic somehow campaigning to give people, regardless of gender or background, the opportunity to develop?  Or, is it meant to somehow leaven humanity's awareness in new and actualized ways?  No?  Oh.  "Discussion" over.

[thalbergmad]

Oh and, by the way, do try to listen to works such as the Eckhardt-Gramatté piano sonatas played by Marc-André Hamelin and Bacewicz's Third Symphony and some of her seven violin concertos before sounding off about women composers and what they're capable of achieving!

I told you before, I am not spending any more money on Hamelin CD's. I have heard a Piano Concerto by Eckhardt-Gramatte and was only mildly impressed. Bacewicz is a Polish Plinkess and I have not managed to make it through even one of her violin concertos, least of all the 7th.

Again, where is the female Beethoven, Mozart or Rachmaninoff?? All we have are 19th Century third raters and a batch of plinkers.

Thal

[ahinton]

And, as I'm sure you also realize, I am referring more to the (lack of) substance which is supposedly qualifying it as a discussion.

Indeed so! - we're well on the same wavelength there!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I told you before, I am not spending any more money on Hamelin CD's.

I wasn't asking you to spend any money and there should not be an apostrophe in "CD's".

I have heard a Piano Concerto by Eckhardt-Gramatte and was only mildly impressed.

Well, at least that's something, I suppose...

Bacewicz is a Polish Plinkess and I have not managed to make it through even one of her violin concertos, least of all the 7th.

Oh, so now we have plinkesses as well! Mon Dieu! If Bacewicz does nothing for you, I can only express sympathy for what you're missing. Wito Luto thought very highly of her, by the way.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Wito Luto thought very highly of her, by the way.

I guess it takes one to know one. His bloody awful piano concerto sounds like a ram raid on a music store.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

[/youtube]

Now we are getting close to a true masterpiece by a female composer. I have yet to hear a better piano concerto by a women.

Bloody awful recording, but a little birdie tells me this is going to be commercially produced. And before you ask, nobody with any ounce of sanity left is going to ask your Canadian buddy to do it.

Thal

[g_s_223]

Could there be an element of, forgive me for the term, "male brain autism" necessary to achieve mastery of the somewhat abstract art of composition? One hears the same question about women's achievement in theoretical mathematics, grand master level chess, computer programming, and suchlike where men overwhelmingly seem to dominate the field. To most women, such subjects are quite simply boring, and that's a perfectly reasonable position. What we should do, is fully respect and honour women's particular and complementary gifts which are manifold and a blessing to us all

[mikeowski]

I know - but the example here was singular.

Best,

Alistair

Yes, but you wrongly suggested modus operandus. Modus operandi is the correct singular-form.

[j_menz]

Yes, but you wrongly suggested modus operandus. Modus operandi is the correct singular-form.

Geneitive case gerunds sometimes get the best of 'em.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Genetive case gerunds sometimes get the best of 'em.

Quick, before Alistair gets here! It's genItive. And modus operandus is just plain wrong.

[j_menz]

Quick, before Alistair gets here! It's genItive. And modus operandus is just plain wrong.

Damn stupid spellcheck! 

[quantum]

Could there be an element of, forgive me for the term, "male brain autism" necessary to achieve mastery of the somewhat abstract art of composition? One hears the same question about women's achievement in theoretical mathematics, grand master level chess, computer programming, and suchlike where men overwhelmingly seem to dominate the field. To most women, such subjects are quite simply boring, and that's a perfectly reasonable position. What we should do, is fully respect and honour women's particular and complementary gifts which are manifold and a blessing to us all

That's a good point.

Could one of the reasons behind there being a shortage of women considered in the light of "great composers" be attributed to the manner in which we define the compositional characteristics of great composers?  Has there been some degree of favorable male characteristics imbued within compositions, knowingly or unknowingly by the author, that has an impact on our perception of greatness?  Are we simply not placing feminine musical traits on the same playing field as those traits found in the majority of male great composers?  Have women composers been ignored simply because they were bringing something different to the table, not that it was better or worse then the establishment, but that it was different? 

[mikeowski]

That's a good point.

Could one of the reasons behind there being a shortage of women considered in the light of "great composers" be attributed to the manner in which we define the compositional characteristics of great composers?  Has there been some degree of favorable male characteristics imbued within compositions, knowingly or unknowingly by the author, that has an impact on our perception of greatness?  Are we simply not placing feminine musical traits on the same playing field as those traits found in the majority of male great composers?  Have women composers been ignored simply because they were bringing something different to the table, not that it was better or worse then the establishment, but that it was different?  

I think you misinterpret the argument. The stronger tendency of the male brain to obsess over seemingly boring subject matter is what leads to greatness in fields like chess, mathematics, music, etc.
We don't value manliness in and of itself, but rather the achievements gotten through the hard work and dedication which are a consequence of obsessive behavior.

I will just suggest it is the same as with chess, mathematics and programming: Women don't get ignored because they are female (a.k.a. patriarchy/misogyny and all those idiotic buzz-words). They are getting outclassed by more capable competitors.

[outin]

All these question have been studied in depth in the field of gender studies and with quite a few different viewpoints. Some reading might do good to some of you 

[ted]

Could one of the reasons behind there being a shortage of women considered in the light of "great composers" be attributed to the manner in which we define the compositional characteristics of great composers?  Has there been some degree of favorable male characteristics imbued within compositions, knowingly or unknowingly by the author, that has an impact on our perception of greatness?  Are we simply not placing feminine musical traits on the same playing field as those traits found in the majority of male great composers?  Have women composers been ignored simply because they were bringing something different to the table, not that it was better or worse then the establishment, but that it was different?  

Yes, that makes an awful lot of sense, quantum, as does most of what you say, at the piano and away from it. Off topic, how about another "Attack of the Flies", "March to School" or "Critters in the Garden". I'm beginning to worry that you have lost it. Bizarre, individual impressionism is your true strength. Most players are curiously unaware of their true strength, you know.  

[bronnestam]

Women used to be composers in earlier days too, and acknowledged they were as well ... but something happened. Music history is, unfortunately, written by men, and some of them seem to have been chauvinists ... female composers have simply been "forgotten" or "neglected" during the years. Too bad, isn't it?

My teacher is extremely interested in this topic of female composers, and she introduced me to a Norwegian composer named Agatha Bakke-Gröndahl. Heard of her? I bet you have not. Anyway, her music is lovely (and rather difficult as well), and I remarked it sounded very much like Grieg. No wonder, as she was one of his contemporaries, and just as respected as him! By then. Later, history writers have "forgotten" her. Male music professors prefer to deal with male composers instead of female. Just go to a conservatory and ask to study female composers in particular. That request will not be well received!

(This is nothing unique. Back in the old days, the third century after the death of Jesus, the books in the Bible were "edited". Heavily edited. And after that, Jesus had only male disciples, Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, and all the remaining books in the Bible just happened to be written by men ... But before this revision, the truth looked a bit different! )

So, playing the piano and writing music was a fully respected profession among women as well, back in those days. But we also know that there have been times when it was considered plainly "inappropriate" that women were on stage, that men sat quiet and listened and looked at a woman performing something.    Or that men gave a woman credit for being good at something except being a good mother/wife etcetera.

Today, thank God, things have changed, although I, as a writer, have experienced that many male readers refuse to read a book if they realize that it is written by a woman!!! They are not even ashamed of admitting it, even though it is utterly stupid. We all know that female pianists are just as good as men - not better, not worse, the gift just seems to be totally independent of gender. Unfortunately we still have not totally left the dark dungeons of sexism ... a male pianist may look as a horse, he can still be respected for his performance, but a female pianist always get comments about HER LOOKS.   

So, obviously there have not been as many female composers throughout history as male composers, but the explanation is HARDLY that "women cannot write music".

[thalbergmad]

a male pianist may look as a horse, he can still be respected for his performance, but a female pianist always get comments about HER LOOKS.   

Yes, but a female pianist can play like a horse and still get respected for her performance because of her looks.

Lisitsa is a prime example.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

So, obviously there have not been as many female composers throughout history as male composers, but the explanation is HARDLY that "women cannot write music".

Women can write music, that is not in dispute.

They just can't do it as well as men.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

My teacher is extremely interested in this topic of female composers, and she introduced me to a Norwegian composer named Agatha Bakke-Gröndahl. Heard of her? I bet you have not.

Incorrect, I have.

Perhaps you should write a book on her to redress the fact that she has been neglected.

Thal

[carl_h]

Well, a kitchen is no place for paper and ink.


*Goes into hiding*

[ahinton]

modus operandus is just plain wrong

I know that. It was meant to be a joke - albeit not a good one and one which backfired spectacularly, although it did at least manage to run for a few exchanges of posts. Here's another; it took a man (Lars Edlund) to write the aural training textbook Modus Novus. Ahem. Modus operandi is an expression that I use with some frequency.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

[/youtube]

Now we are getting close to a true masterpiece by a female composer. I have yet to hear a better piano concerto by a women.

It's not bad, to be sure; whether it's the finest piano concerto ever written by a woman remains to be seen and would require a fair amount of research among the various examples thereof.

Bloody awful recording, but a little birdie tells me this is going to be commercially produced. And before you ask, nobody with any ounce of sanity left is going to ask your Canadian buddy to do it.

I was not about to ask anyway but, if you mean that anyone wouldn't ask Angela Hewitt, Janina Fialkowska, Louis Lortie, Jon Kimura Parker et al  to record it commercially, I confess to having no idea whereas if you're referring to Marc-André Hamelin it would far more likely be a case of whether he would himself choose to do it and I have not heard tht he has done so.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Well, a kitchen is no place for paper and ink.


*Goes into hiding*

True, washing up liquid and paper do not make good bedfellows.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

if you're referring to Marc-André Hamelin it would far more likely be a case of whether he would himself choose to do it and I have not heard tht he has done so.

Well, let us hope that he chooses not to. We do not want this lovely work turned into a Midi.

Thal

[ahinton]

Yes, but a female pianist can play like a horse and still get respected for her performance because of her looks.

I've never heard a horse playing the piano, so I'd be wary of agreeing here.

Lisitsa is a prime example.

I don't agree with this either; I don't think that she looks particularly good and, although I've heard plenty worse pianists, she strikes me as quite ordinary and unworthy of the immense attention that she gets.

Best,

Alsitair

[thalbergmad]

It's not bad, to be sure; whether it's the finest piano concerto ever written by a woman remains to be seen and would require a fair amount of research among the various examples thereof.

I eagerly await your nomination for the best female piano concerto.

Thal

[ahinton]

Women can write music, that is not in dispute.

They just can't do it as well as men.

Says Thal, yet again, but without presenting any proof in the forum of neuroscientific research to support his statement and, without such, it can be no more than a personal opinion.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well, let us hope that he chooses not to. We do not want this lovely work turned into a Midi.

Midi? He's Québecois Canadian, not French.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

True, washing up liquid and paper do not make good bedfellows.

Substitute bleach and it would be even worse. That said, bedfellows in the kitchen aren't a great idea in the first place unless one has no bedroom...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Says Thal, yet again, but without presenting any proof in the forum of neuroscientific research to support his statement and, without such, it can be no more than a personal opinion.

I don't need to present evidence. The proof is in the pudding.

Nobody has yet presented in this thread any female composers of the same greatness as Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff and countless others.

Plinkistickly speaking, they might equal men in 20th/21st century garbage, but so could a starfish.

Thal

[ahinton]

I guess it takes one to know one. His bloody awful piano concerto sounds like a ram raid on a music store.

Nonsense! Do you seriously suppose that the distinguished pianists who have performed and/or recorded it would have touched it with a barge-pole had your estimation of it been correct?! (these, incidentally, include one who, at the composer's invitation, gave it its Australian première and who, yeas earlier, had the misfortune to give piano lessopns to the presetn writer). Were it really to sound as you claim it to do, I cannot imagine music stores willingly selling copies of its score, either...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I eagerly await your nomination for the best female piano concerto.

Then you'll have a long wait; did you not read my post about that? I hacve no idea how many such works there may be but I certainly do not profess to know them all so it would involve plenty of research and listening.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I don't need to present evidence. The proof is in the pudding.

We're back to that kitchen again, I see! Whereabouts in which "pudding" is this elusive proof? "Puddings" are in any case more in Nigella Lawson's territory and, while she's undoubtedly a woman, I'm not even sure that she composes her own recipes...

Nobody has yet presented in this thread any female composers of the same greatness as Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff and countless others.

No, indeed - and no one is silly enough to pretend that they'll do so either - but that's not the point, which has far more to do with the rôles of women in Western societies and the extent (or lack of it) of the general expectation that women would composer or even want to do so, all of which is changing today and has been doing so for some time.

Plinkistickly speaking, they might equal men in 20th/21st century garbage, but so could a starfish.

Just as I've never heard a horse play the piano, I've yet to encounter a starfish of any gender that's composed a piano concerto. The fact, however, that your statement appears to imply a belief on your part that "20th/21st century" and "garbage" are somehow broadly synonymous speaks for (or rather against) itself.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

To return to taking this thread seriously (for all that, as m1469 has sensibly observed, we've been here before), the kind of proof or disproof of any argument here must be dependent upon
(a) a proper recognition of the position of women in Western societies down the years and the changes in this that have occurred and
(b) the need for hard evidence arrived at through bona fide research - physiological, neuroscientific, genetic et al.

Where (b) is concerned, there is no value to bland and bald statements such as Thal's (sorry, Thal) that are based on a perception of there being no need to explain something because everyone supposedly already knows it. If it were indeed true that women were somehow congenitally incapable of greatness in the field of composition (as distinct from resisting discouragement from involvement in it), it would be possible to prove in scientifically and identify the specific gender differences that bring this about.

It is also worth bearing in mind that many male composers have also fallen way short of "the same greatness as Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff and countless others".

But let's momentarily widen the topic for the express purpose of trying to ascertain whether there's any mileage in it by asking some related questions.

1. To what extent, if any, could it reasonably be claimed that music written by men is solely or principally intended or suitable for male performers or male audiences?

2. If it is so, on what grounds? and could the parallel argument be posited for music written by women?

3. Do women write music in ways that are identifiably different from men and, if so, is this subconscious or conscious? how can these differences be identified and explained? and can performers and audiences tell from the results?

4. Do the sexual orientations, as well as the gender, of composers likewise exert any impact upon the ways in which they write? - if so, what and how?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Good Lord, he is on one today.

[ahinton]

Good Lord

You been talking to Susan again?

he is on one today.

"On one" what? A woman composer? and, if so, how (or, for that matter, why) do you suppose I'd be typing at the same time? That would be taking multi-tasking to preposterous limits, n'est-ce pas?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I wonder why women are useless at darts compared to men??

A sport that requires no strength, just accuracy and a steady arm under pressure. When arguably the greatest woman darts player ever spent a year in the men's league, she won just one match.

Thal

[ahinton]

I wonder why women are useless at darts compared to men??

A sport that requires no strength, just accuracy and a steady arm under pressure. When arguably the greatest woman darts player ever spent a year in the men's league, she won just one match.

I have no idea but, even if that were to be the case, the question once more arises as to why?

That there is nevertheless a considerable gulf between playing darts and composing music is, however, self-evident and, whilst I accept that I did seek to open up the considerations here to other aspects of women and composition / performance in order to try to help the focus by widening the scope of the discussion, I think it fair to say that the sport of darts really does fall well outside it.

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I think you misinterpret the argument. The stronger tendency of the male brain to obsess over seemingly boring subject matter is what leads to greatness in fields like chess, mathematics, music, etc.
We don't value manliness in and of itself, but rather the achievements gotten through the hard work and dedication which are a consequence of obsessive behavior.

I will just suggest it is the same as with chess, mathematics and programming: Women don't get ignored because they are female (a.k.a. patriarchy/misogyny and all those idiotic buzz-words). They are getting outclassed by more capable competitors.

Oddly, I think chess is the field (of those quoted) where women, or at least one woman in particular, i.e. Judit Polgar, has got closest to being truly world-class (she was top 10 for a while). Mind you, I'm less aware of the others fields, and am not sufficiently mathematically literate to pass any sort of opinion on the merits of Hypatia

Back to music -

[thalbergmad]

The Jaell 2nd is a blast. I have actually played (attempted) that.

Thal

[ahinton]

The Jaell 2nd is a blast. I have actually played (attempted) that.

Hmmm - you must be a better player than you usually admit to being!

Well, Liszt semed to value her work (although when one thinks of Brahms's reaction to Liszt playing his sonata when it was a relatively new piece, one might well wonder why he introduced her to Brahms!). She seems to have cut quite a figure as a pianist and, in her relatively younger days, the number of pianists presenting the entire cycle of Beethoven sonatas as she evidently did in recital was certainly not large. Again, it's quite a decent piece, though not one to set the place alight - having said which it's good to see it represented in the catalogues of recorded music as it deserves to be.

Best,

Alistair

[Bob]

Is it a good thing if we're selecting based on gender (or anything else)?  It's interesting.  I haven't heard of some of the composers listed here.  But... In a way it seems like disability/stigma/characteristic/something-like-that.... "Here are the real composers.  And here are some other others you never heard of.  They're   _______(characteristic)composers."  Not enough left-handed composers?  Here's a list of left-handed composers... Who? 


Maybe there is no reason.  It just turned out that way, for no reason at all.  At some point in the future maybe it shifts.  I think I'd lean towards how the male brain is wired up mostly, combined with society, and then history, etc. 

[thalbergmad]

Maybe there is no reason. 

By the sounds of it, there are going to be some pretty long and boring posts trying to find one.

Thal

[ahinton]

By the sounds of it, there are going to be some pretty long and boring posts trying to find one.

Or maybe there will be none because there's no reason to find as it either isn't or cannot be proved to be the case.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Men are best

[ahinton]

Men are best

Because Thal says so - and even despite Thal offering no physiological, mental or neurological evidence to demonstrate why this is supposedly the case or taking account of the various changes in what is expected of women, what women expect of themselves or any other social metamorphoses in recent and less recent history.

Well, obviously that's game, set and match, then! (although perhaps not the most apposite analogy, given that even you presumably accept that some women are as good at tennis as the best of male tennis players)...

Best,

Alistair

[Bob]

Is it the same in other cultures?  The usual list of composers is going to be white European men.  *Bob pictures an island of all great female composers.*  Is there anywhere where it's the opposite?  Are there more higher-level female composers in the U.S./west where it might be more accepted?  Equal rights/freedom of speech type of countries.

[ahinton]

Is it the same in other cultures?  The usual list of composers is going to be white European men.  *Bob pictures an island of all great female composers.*  Is there anywhere where it's the opposite?  Are there more higher-level female composers in the U.S./west where it might be more accepted?  Equal rights/freedom of speech type of countries.

I don't know the answer to that specific question but I suspect that it's more a case of education and encouragement of and opportunities for women composers slowly increasing throughout "Western" countries rather than the phenomenon being territory specific.

The principal flaw in the arguments set out by those who seem to consider that, with few if any exceptions, women simply can't cut it as composers compared to men is in the mere citation of big names such as Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms et al, all of whom have been dead for many decades, without duly proportionate reference to historical changes in terms of the rôles expected of and assumed by women and the ways in which women are regarded in society (in tems of entitlements, &c.); of course there have not yet been women composers of the order of those particular ones, but that fact does not of itself demonstrate how or why women "cannot" compose" as well as men.

As I've already stated, no argument for or against this can acquire validity and credibility in the absence of reliable scientific evidence of the kinds that I mentioned; without it, the answer to the thread topic can only ever be "I don't know" or "I don't believe that this is necessarily the case". It's also worth bering in mind the crucial natire of the use of the word "always" here.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Well, obviously that's game, set and match, then!

It is until you cut all the crap and come up with a female composer of the same level as the male greats.

Thal