Need help with these Octave runs

[swagmaster420x]

u-u-umm... y-y-you c-could just d-do 1-5 w-while h-holding down th-the d-damper p-pedal all the w-w-w-way.... o-oh w-w-wait i'm s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-sorry

[cabbynum]

Is this forum overloaded with top tier virtuosi or have you not tried this in practise before posting?

Set the metronome for 120 and then play four repetitions per beat, for 8 per second. If you can do that at all for any form of octaves, you're a hell of a pianist. You should really upload footage of yourself pushing your limits, if that's moderate for you. If you can shape phrases at that speed with 15 or if you can get through more than a few bars of the  6th rhapsody without flagging then you're a supervirtuoso. I've never measured it exactly, but I don't believe Horowitz even reaches that speed in his final burst for the rhapsody, never mind going a significant number of notches further.

Apologies for continuing this, but the difference between outrageously fast and "not that fast" is not a minor technicality. it's a game changer. As I already said, it's unlikely that anyone can hit the required speed on these octaves without introducing some rhythmic freedom to help out, but there's a limit to how far your can stretch before the integrity is lost. These are not easy octaves. The very difficulty is in the fact that they have to SEEM easy by being cast off not "virtuosically" in the showy sense, but with a simple melodic flow.. They are not easy, which is why so many need  use two hands to pull them off. It takes the height of virtuosity to fool the listener into thinking they are nothing, without even attempting something so difficult as nothing but 15.

Just sat down on my couch after playing that at the tempo you suggested. Not bad and not hard. I too have superb octave technique. I have not played the full op.53 Beethoven but I've played the prestissimo section and can get the glissando with articulated octaves that are hit individually at speed.
I will give you this, if that smallittle tiny section was continued on and on for measures and measures and pages and pages. It would be challenging, but not impossible.  You speak of these as if they are the Everest of octaves. You couldn't be more wrong, you also speak of the 6th rhapsody the same way.
Mazeppa
Liszt b minor sonata
Quite a lot of Schubert has painfully awkward and fast octaves
Allegro barbaro Alkan
Alkan op.39 no.11

The list goes on and on, octaves are doable with the right technique and do not need a super virtuoso to pull them off. I defenitely do not have super virtuoso technique but octaves do come extremely easily and I've never had a problem with them, ever.  I can play the ossia finale to rach 3 with no problem, and I like to have fun on Fridays by turning most of my pieces into Botha hands in octaves. Yet I still lack in a lot of areas with my technique. I am working on that, but still. Octaves aren't bad if you are good at them.
It's a stupid statement but it's true.
 Go listen to zimmerman play this section, and Horowitz and Rubinstein. It's not played at a ridiculous tempo, it's played at a very musical tempo. And after all, isn't this music?

[nyiregyhazi]

Just sat down on my couch after playing that at the tempo you suggested. Not bad and not hard. I too have superb octave technique. I have not played the full op.53 Beethoven but I've played the prestissimo section and can get the glissando with articulated octaves that are hit individually at speed.
I will give you this, if that smallittle tiny section was continued on and on for measures and measures and pages and pages. It would be challenging, but not impossible.  You speak of these as if they are the Everest of octaves. You couldn't be more wrong, you also speak of the 6th rhapsody the same way.
Mazeppa
Liszt b minor sonata
Quite a lot of Schubert has painfully awkward and fast octaves
Allegro barbaro Alkan
Alkan op.39 no.11

The list goes on and on, octaves are doable with the right technique and do not need a super virtuoso to pull them off. I defenitely do not have super virtuoso technique but octaves do come extremely easily and I've never had a problem with them, ever.  I can play the ossia finale to rach 3 with no problem, and I like to have fun on Fridays by turning most of my pieces into Botha hands in octaves. Yet I still lack in a lot of areas with my technique. I am working on that, but still. Octaves aren't bad if you are good at them.
It's a stupid statement but it's true.
 Go listen to zimmerman play this section, and Horowitz and Rubinstein. It's not played at a ridiculous tempo, it's played at a very musical tempo. And after all, isn't this music?

I didn't say they are an everest. I said they are both fast and difficult. Above all, because they must be shaped (unless the pianist has slack musical standards that allow mere execution of the notes to suffice). Zimmerman plays it with two hands. Rubinstein probably does too, knowing his attitudes (not to mention the effortless and truly rapid execution). Horowitz (much as he's my favourite overall pianist) makes a complete pig's ear of the passage musically, with nothing like a seamless legato line. You can literally hear the breaks and the excessive heaviness, as he overworks to get the notes knocked out at speed. It's interesting that every example you gave there from pieces is of cases where this type of playing actually works- rather than instances that demand significantly phrased octaves to be played at extreme speeds. If this were such a case, it wouldn't be difficult with 15. This passage is actually rather rare, in terms of the specific musical difficulties.

Also, you didn't reply to any of my specifics. Are you still sincerely telling us you play even the last statement in the liszt rhapsody at speeds notably in advance of eight repetitions per second? Did you stop to try that metronome mark?

Here's Katsaris, showing his consumate virtuosity by shaping the octaves and also extolling the importance of physical legato in making that possible.

See 3:40. Note how the student achieves fair speed, but nothing like the sense of seamless line Katsaris makes- even with legato fingering. When you take musical issues into account, this is not remotely basic to pull off, even with a legato connection. Without, it may even be outright impossible to achieve fluidity. Look at youtube films of various accomplished pianists playing this and you'll find that just about anyone who plays it at such speed and with such lightness visibly use two hands. That's no small feat that Katsaris is pulling off, regardless of how casually it's done!

Here's Horowitz making a hash of it by failing to keep either smoothness or lightness (about 27 seconds in):

The notes sound punched out individually (yet rather messily due to the reliance on pedal), not smooth. There's no hint of a legato illusion to be heard and it's not actually very fast (despite the overwhelmingly audible effort going into the execution).

Sorry, but as I said before, words are cheap. If you feel you'd meet either my musical standards or those of Katsaris, you should upload a recording of what you say is not challenging to do. Then we'll judge how much of a phrase comes across with 15. I'd also be very interested in hearing evidence that you actually reach the speed you claimed would be slow for the 6th rhapsody, otherwise I'll take it to have been bravado.

[cabbynum]

I didn't say they are an everest. I said they are both fast and difficult. Above all, because they must be shaped (unless the pianist has slack musical standards that allow mere execution of the notes to suffice). Zimmerman plays it with two hands. Rubinstein probably does too, knowing his attitudes. Horowitz (much as he's my favourite overall pianist) makes a complete pig's ear of the passage musically, with nothing like a seamless legato line. You can literally hear the breaks and the excessive heaviness, as he overworks to get the notes knocked out at speed. It's interesting that every example you gave there is of cases where this type of playing actually works- rather than instances that demand significantly phrased octaves to be played at extreme speeds. If this were such a case, it wouldn't be difficult with 15.

Also, you didn't reply to any of my specifics. Are you still sincerely telling us you play even the last statement in the liszt rhapsody at speeds notably in advance of eight repetitions per second? Did you stop to try that metronome mark?

Here's Katsaris, showing his consumate virtuosity by shaping the octaves and also extolling the importance of physical legato is making that possible.

See 3:40. Note how the student achieves fair speed, but nothing like the sense of seamless line Katsaris makes- even with legato fingering. When you take musical issues into account, this is not remotely basic to pull off, even with a legato connection. Without, it even may be outright impossible to achieve fluidity.

Here's Horowitz making a hash of it by failing to keep either smoothness or lightness:

The notes sound punched out individually (yet rather messily due to the reliance on pedal), not smooth. There's no hint of a legato illusion to be heard.

Sorry, but as I said before, words are cheap. If you feel you'd meet either my musical standards or those of Katsaris, you should upload a recording of what you say is not challenging to do. Then we'll judge how much of a phrase comes across with 15.

I wasn't aware zimmerman used 2 hands, but he still doesn't play it lightning fast.
I only learned the ending to the liszt rhapsody because of my love for octaves, I never took the time to count exactly how many I did per second. I know for a fact I am pretty close to Agerich speed. Defenitely not her musicality. I never use the metronome when I get past 75% speed.
 
Also I don't remember saying I use 15 all the way through, If I did it was a miscommunication on my part. I use whatever finger works for the given situation. In this situation I use 54545 45 (the switched finger on the repeated f makes it much easier to get speed and a nice resolving feeling)

Also you posted the same video twice, but I have heard Horowitz play it on YouTube and I'm not a fan of his recording.

You obviously feel very strongly about all of this. That's good, I think possibly the arguments thus far on this thread have gotten a bit out of proportion. I think we could all tone it down a bit.

I say use whatever finger you want. As long as you get the sound that YOU want.

I'm not gonna upload anything right now and quite frankly I probably won't upload anything at all so that I can be done with this. I'll be posting quite a few recordings in many months though. One if them has a few nice octave passages. Actually 2, the third movement to the tempest sonata and Chopin fantasie in f minor

[nyiregyhazi]

I wasn't aware zimmerman used 2 hands, but he still doesn't play it lightning fast.

Who said there was a speed challenge here? The point was that there's nothing difficult about executing with both an appropriate speed and with shape when use two hands. But the combination of speed and musical demands makes it VERY hard with 15.

I only learned the ending to the liszt rhapsody because of my love for octaves, I never took the time to count exactly how many I did per second. I know for a fact I am pretty close to Agerich speed. Defenitely not her musicality. I never use the metronome when I get past 75% speed.

Well, if you still seriously want to assert that 8 notes per second is not an outrageously fast speed for repeated octaves, I'd suggest that you turn in on at 120, in order to see how you actually fare at fitting in four per click. It's pretty outrageous indeed to even reach 8 per second, nevermind surpass it.

 

Also I don't remember saying I use 15 all the way through, If I did it was a miscommunication on my part. I use whatever finger works for the given situation. In this situation I use 54545 45 (the switched finger on the repeated f makes it much easier to get speed and a nice resolving feeling)

I was speaking specifically of 15 fingering. It's already hard enough with legato fingering, but anyone who seriously thinks they make a beautiful line at speed with that fingering is either a supervirtuoso or simply not setting the highest musical standards.

Also you posted the same video twice, but I have heard Horowitz play it on YouTube and I'm not a fan of his recording.

Cheers, I'll edit the post and relink. There are some great moments in the performance, but that moment is the worst kind of misplaced "virtuosity" (with the term used extremely sarcastically). Not his finest hour.

I say use whatever finger you want. As long as you get the sound that YOU want.

I do agree- but the problem is that when 15 is brought forward as a serious option, an inexperienced player will THINK that the seemingly easier solution is good enough, because it seems less work than learning to play legato. But they'll be training themself to settle for a poor compromise and a poor result- not what they'd really wanted.

[cabbynum]

Just for the record, because it doesn't I was clear. I don't use 1-5 on black keys, I think it's harder.
I use the finger I find makes the best sound and the easiest to execute. My teacher disagrees with me, but she allows it because I make a good argument and have a good sound when I do octaves.

Anyway, good argument everybody let's wait a while for the next one!

[nyiregyhazi]

Just for the record, because it doesn't I was clear. I don't use 1-5 on black keys, I think it's harder.
I use the finger I find makes the best sound and the easiest to execute. My teacher disagrees with me, but she allows it because I make a good argument and have a good sound when I do octaves.

Anyway, good argument everybody let's wait a while for the next one!

One related point- I always do 3/4 on black keys where I want to feel a sense of connection. However, I realised there are some exceptions. In the end of the black key study, 5 works way better than doing 4- as legato is no issue. I actually tend to use 4 and 5 stuck together for black keys, if going for a really huge sound. I still use 3/4 if there is value in having more fingers prepared at once, but I realised that there are also many places where it's better to get 5 involved on black keys, if the context is right, than restrict it to 4.

By the way, this is the speed I play the rhapsody at:

=6m19s

Nowhere near the speed of supervirtusosi, but I think it's still fast enough for me to count myself as speaking from an informed position when I sincerely state that it's overwhelmingly harder to play this little run of octaves properly in the Ballade than to do that rhapsody. It's a far greater feat to pull that off like Katsaris even with a legato fingering, never mind with the 15 that some have advised here. If I was to play it an concert, I wouldn't even consider attempting it with one hand.

[faulty_damper]

The way Katsaris demonstrated the octave technique @ 3:30 is similar to the technique I use.  Notice that he rocks the wrist high and forward to play the blacks.  Her technique was very poor since she played the blacks like she was playing the whites.  But the moment she used the technique Katsaris suggested, it immediately improved @ 4:45.  But she still needs practice to refine it.

[faulty_damper]

By the way, this is the speed I play the rhapsody at:

That's Horowitz playing the Ballade, not the Rhapsody, and he played that octave flourish very unmusically.  It really sounded bad.

The notes sound punched out individually (yet rather messily due to the reliance on pedal), not smooth. There's no hint of a legato illusion to be heard and it's not actually very fast (despite the overwhelmingly audible effort going into the execution).

It's not because he relies on the pedal that makes it sound bad.  Note that Katsaris also uses the pedal and it sounds melodically phrased and elegant.

[nyiregyhazi]

That's Horowitz playing the Ballade, not the Rhapsody, and he played that octave flourish very unmusically.  It really sounded bad.

It's not because he relies on the pedal that makes it sound bad.  Note that Katsaris also uses the pedal and it sounds melodically phrased and elegant.

I didn't say it's because he pedals. It's because the pedal is the only thing joining the notes. If someone played the melody of the 2nd mvt of Rach 2 with the pedal down but staccato (via arm jabs), would it sound legato? The fact that this is faster doesn't give carte blanche to use sloppy technique and kid yourself that nobody will hear a sloppy result through the haze of pedal. Anyone trying to avoid the punched out arm jabs with 15 will almost certainly do worse still than Horowitz unless they go very slow indeed. It's the way katsaris moves seamlessly sideways (which can't be done the same without staying in contact with a key) and manipulates the keys from the fingers that allows such fine control at speed. Even he would probably struggle to do that if he had to clip the notes with 15 and then get those fingers straight over the next octave, in order to generate necessary speed. Consider also that it leaves few chances for a clean pedal change without probably failing to catch the note, at that speed. Katsaris is probably just fluttering rather than jamming the pedal down like Horowitz and then depending on it for survival. An artist of his caliber knows better than to merely shove the pedal to the bottom in that kind of light writing. If he didn't, his would sound muddy too.

Anyway, here's the rhapsody I did. Sorry, the button on my mouse is screwed and often messes up when I go to copy text. I'll edit the previous post too.

=6m19s

[faulty_damper]

You keep on insisting that 1-5 is not possible to play musically.  This may be true of your own technique but don't assume that just because you can't do it musically, others can't, either.  I've shown that any of the fingerings are possible musically which is why I posted my reply after trying all of them.  Again, don't assume that just because you can't do something, others can't either.  They most certainly can.

[nyiregyhazi]

You keep on insisting that 1-5 is not possible to play musically.  This may be true of your own technique but don't assume that just because you can't do it musically, others can't, either.  I've shown that any of the fingerings are possible musically which is why I posted my reply after trying all of them.  Again, don't assume that just because you can't do something, others can't either.  They most certainly can.

Sorry, but you've said, not "shown". I'd have to hear it first and decide for myself whether it keeps both the sense of musical momentum and the sense of a gently controlled line. Due to sheer speed, it's not greatly different from claiming to be able to control the start of the top line of op 10 no 2 (minus chords) at a fairly quick tempo, but with nothing but 5s and pedal. It's really not an easy thing to make a single repeating finger into a controlled phrase when you have to play it over and over fast without any physical links. Not unless you either play every note with force or go very slow.


The thing that tells me i'm right about this is the fact that katsaris is the only pianist I've seen succeed with one hand even with legato fingering. All the other concert pros I saw didn't even dare to try it with one hand. Horowitz who definitely did bungled it. Either they are all lazy, or its seriously tough to phrase even with legato fingering. Sorry, but when something is clearly pretty remarkable to pull off, I need evidence that it was pulled off at all before putting blind faith in any person's self assessment. I won't accuse you of lying, but neither will I trust that what satisfies your standards would satisfy my own- unless you provide evidence for others to consider.

[faulty_damper]

Again, just because you don't think it can be done doesn't mean it can't be done.  As you've stated, Katsaris does it just fine, as does the student after coaching.  I'm able to do it, as well as others.  I won't be commenting on this issue any more since this is quickly turning into a pissing contest. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Again, just because you don't think it can be done doesn't mean it can't be done.  As you've stated, Katsaris does it just fine, as does the student after coaching.  I'm able to do it, as well as others.  I won't be commenting on this issue any more since this is quickly turning into a pissing contest.  

? Neither of them use 15. They achieve it with physical legato. There's no evidence of anyone pulling off this passage with the non-legato fingering you say you can phrase with. She does do it pretty well considering, but it's still a little punched more than phrased. It doesn't satisfy me, compared to what would be easy to do with two hands. Katsaris does it every bit as well as with two hands. Anyway, I'll take his expert word for the importance of legato fingering over an unproven claim that you don't need it in order to phrase this passage, sorry.

If this were a pissing contest, I'd be bragging about how supposedly easy it is to pull off, not stating that I find it impossible to execute such fast notes with phrasing to the highest musical level, with non-legato fingering. There's no competition here. You merely claim you can do it with no problem. Given the nature of the Internet (not to mention what we've seen over and over in this forum- particularly from keyboardclass) I personally think think that warrants evidence (which shouldn't be any real problem if you can execute it as readily as you say).