N, God dammit! We all get your point! Everyone gets your point. We simply don't agree with it. Why do you have to argue everything to death, until the topic is locked, or until the other ones give up? Just leave it at your argument. You're really not helping anyone. Frankly, I (I guess many others too) have stopped even reading your replies. We all know that it's gonna say "No, you're wrong. I'm right". They always do, and it's not even funny anymore.Your reply to this one will be "Tell me one place where I say that anyone is wrong" I will then tell you to read your own replies, and you will find some tiny little detail in the thing I wrote, and claim that I'm wrong in that too. Just leave it, once.
It's how debate works.
Clearly not! You really can't think that that's how you do it? You say, in a very rude way, that someone is wrong. When this someone replies, you constantly changes what they said, put words in their mouth, or simply answer a question no one asked. Why do you have to try to convince people, constantly? I mean, isn't it enough to tell your point, and if we idiots are to stupid to appreciate your apparent genius, you just leave it? No?
By all means cite what I changed. If outin is on the right path, she'll arrive a point where she can execute new music fluently and without mental blocks about how to read, first time around,-without having to make excuses for anything. Sorry to be the messenger, but I don't think that's very likely with her present attitude. We're all students here and we all have to be honest with ourselves and willing to look our problem areas right in the eye, if we want to keep making progress.
Although I do have my doubts about your motive being a sincere willingness to help me with your posts,
Although I do have my doubts about your motive being a sincere willingness to help me with your posts, let's assume so. I thank you for your extensive efforts. Unfortunately you are too misguided to come up with something really useful. I have quite recently been through a full scale testing by a professional and also had long discussions about what kind of survival strategies are recommended (as found useful by their ongoing research) to tackle the issues that do affect not only my piano playing but also certain daily life activities. I was given a lot of material about latest research as well, which I have read and got a good overview of what is known and what is still unknown about the physiological and neurological processes affecting learning with the specific type of problem I have. Many of those strategies I have already learned to employ before, otherwise I could not have had any success with university level science education. If your advice contradicts what I have received from a professional, which one do you think I should follow? After all you have presented no credentials to convince us that you are a great teacher or an educational specialist, especially with students who have special needs. You have only given us evidence that you can yourself play the piano quite well. Being able to do and being able to teach others how to do require different abilities and knowledge. If you really expect me to take your word over someone who specializes in exactly the kind of problems I have, you will have to come up with something much more substantial than what you have so far. I suggest you stop and think before you start writing the next long post: Do I really have anything new to say or back up my claims?
Also, do you forget how to read words from a page fluently if someone is watching? If so, there are genuine issues. Assuming not, however, it's just a matter of not having acquired a skillset to the level to make it effortless in situations both with and without pressure.
Me too. And although this is almost certainly obvious to you, you are not under the slightest obligation to justify yourself to nyiregyhazi. I think it's pretty clear to lookers-on what's going on here and you have nothing you need to prove to anybody. There are lots of generous, helpful people here who give good advice without a side order of "And how wrong you are!".
Are these scientists experts on what makes for reliable success in instrumental skills? I'm not unsympathetic to special needs, but the problem is that the process by which skills are acquired doesn't make allowances for special needs. It's still the case that if you go slow enough to get things clear and precise, you learn fast. Whereas if you allow concentration to lapse and go wrong (which means that guessing has occurred by definition) you develop unclear neural pathways that do not become reliable. Labelling yourself by a condition doesn't change that. It only makes it all the more important to learn to techniques to get things right first time. Tapping each key before sounding it is valuable because you learn to know BEFORE the mistake occurred and thus prevent confusion at source.
I am not dyslexic and my reading and writing skills are way above average, so I don't see how my reading of words from a page would in any way be relevant here?
Note reading as a specific problem area was also discussed in some of the material I got. They may not be experts on instrumental skills, but they are experts in learning and neuropsychology.Of course one has to go slow. Did I ever say one shouldn't? Or said it's ok to make mistakes?You just don't know what you are talking about when you say "allow concentration to lapse and go wrong". If it was only a question of allowing something or not, there would hardly be any problem at all. I am not into labelling, I am just being practical.
If concentration issues do not affect your ability to accurately read words straight off, why blame them for your lesser ability to read music straight off? Clearly the really significant issue is how effectively you've developed the relevant skill set.
I'm just telling you straight up that if you don't the same blocks when reading English text, that simply means there are skills which are under developed but which can be improved on and that any concentration issues are secondary to issues of approach.
I know...I am just a bit too eager in my desire to educate people
If I'm wrong, don't bother with a written defence. Just prove me wrong by evolving into a fantastically reliable reader who doesn't have blocks.
When people say every note out loud and state the interval before playing it and then tap the relevant key with the right finger before sounding it, they don't go wrong.
I'm an adult piano learner and just started to learn piano from a professional teacher. Previously I played a little bit electrical piano, which is totally different. I'm really bad at sight reading and keep making mistakes in class with the new piece, which makes my teacher really mad at me and stop me many times. I feel sad about it. Is it common? and what's the effective way to improve my sight reading?
My wife is a teacher and has worked with students with learning disabilities. One of the really frustrating things for the older ones is to have spent years with ignorant (sometimes well-meaning, sometimes not) people telling them "Oh, you're really smart, you just have to try harder."
Of course they can go wrong. They can easily say the wrong note.
That's a guess ie a direct contravention of everything I'm saying is important for deep learning to occur. The reason people need both relative and absolute reading skills is that you cannot go wrong without knowing when you have two ways of calculating a note. When you read a note both individually and by interval compared to other notes, error is exposed by contradiction. Only by being too one sided do mistakes go by unnoticed. As I said, this poisons the mind as it never gets to make associations with enough reliable accuracy for certainty to develop as to what means what. The brain is filled with unclear and even inaccurate associations. This is exactly why those who have learning difficulties must be even more rigorous about avoiding guesses and not more forgiving. As a teacher that doesn't mean I'd be stricter on someone who struggles, but for an adult in the situation there are ways within the power of the individual to tell themself that guesses will never do, if they want to go as far as possible. A foolproof method that doesn't give false positives and an attitude of not settling for anything less than certainty is needed for learning to sink in.
Funny that you would choose the expression "calculate a note". That describes quite well what is done and also explains why identification of notes is so difficult to certain individuals. Calculating twice does not necessarily make it any more secure or easy than calculating once, when the calculation is the source of the problems. A "normal" person would see a contradiction and that's what you are counting on. But it actually doesn't always work that way. Sometimes it may, but not in a way that would be secure and consistent.You still haven't presented ANY facts or credentials that would back up your basic claims. What you have are strong beliefs. People have all kinds of beliefs and I'm fine with that. People who run on beliefs can usually not be convinced no matter how many facts you give them.
How much evidence does it require to think that staring at a B under the radical misapprehension that's it's an F would cause the brain to learn incorrect pathways? You'd sooner doubt the obvious that ask whether there's a perfectly credible way to do better? Look at how hard it is for a student to unlearn a bad fingering that has been repeated.
Actually it has never been difficult at all for me. I do that all the time with little trouble. Even after playing a section for weeks I can easily change the fingering. But I do know how hard it normally is, so I don't say that you are wrong, only that what applies to you and your students does not apply to me.The problem here is that you cannot see beyond what is obvious to you. It is probablyk almost impossible to understand the implications of a very different brain function without either having one yourself or doing a lot of research. A good analogy would be that it's impossible to understand quantum physics without first letting go of the common principles of mechanism.
How many notes per second? I'd wait until you can change a prelearned fingering while tearing through ten or more notes per second before proclaiming yourself immune to the pitfalls of having to unlearn faults., it's easy to choose a new fingering if you have made a conscious decision to put your mind to it and gone slow. It's when instincts must be called on that prelearned pathways reemerge. In reading the problem is that you have to know what the note is to decide to overrule a prelearned expectation (which makes for a catch 22 where you must be able to read the note correctly to overrule the habit of reading it wrongly). Even in easy pieces, good readers process Hu amounts of information simultaneously which demands perfect instincts. That is exactly what never comes to exist when you allowable guesses during the basic ground work.
Aren't you being a bit childish now? You clearly witness this difficulty of changing fingerings in your students in much lesser speeds. I don't have to wait until I play 100 notes per second no more than you need to wait until you encounter a rare student that contradicts your ideas. Indeed I may never play 100 notes per second, and wouldn't really mind if I never do. Maybe you should wait until you are a bit older and wiser before setting your beliefs in stone.This ability/disability of not developing those instincts you describe by repetition has it's downside of course. But I don't consider what I have a great disability or dwell in my problems, considering I have no way of knowing whether some of the things I am exceptionally good at are explained by the same imbalance of my brain. Just like blind people have exceptional hearing skills. It's just good to know what I'm up against and have realistic expectations. It's a limiting factor in sight reading, slowing me down and causing mistakes that are not explained by the difficulty of the score or lack of practice or knowledge. Sometimes any sight reading is impossible. But I can still read well enough to learn my pieces correctly without my teacher having to make corrections on the notes when we start working on something together. I am also not going to change the ways I practice, especially not now that I have started to progress really well, just because some dude thinks he knows more than I do about something I clearly have much more knowledge and experience of.
. There's no such thing as an unexplained mistake unless going fast. Unexplained mistakes are the result of guesses or incorrectly formed mental associations that lead to wrongly interpreted notes. The fact that every note can be a choice and not a necessity is why you can change fingerings. Evidently the irony is lost on you, but you need the experience to be tackling demands that cannot be done without dependence on acquired instincts to realise why instincts are hard to change. The problem in students is that they expect another go to work. Anyone can choose what finger to take by going slow and deliberately enough, so as to override instinct (it's just that this no longer works at speed where predeveloped instinct has to be there for success) . Just the same as anyone can learn not to guess notes by going slowly and deliberately enough. The difference between learning difficulties and a standard brain is how slow that needs to be.
Now I'm almost 100% certain that you're trolling. Just leave it! It's bloody annoying
The difference between learning difficulties and a standard brain is how slow that needs to be.
If you're annoyed don't read my posts. But pointing out that mistakes are always subject to will and that anyone can learn to self verify (if they are familiar enough with the right techniques) enough to prevent them at source is hardly trolling. If you offered a pianist a hundred pounds per right note and said you'd dock them two thousand pounds per error, very few pianists would make a loss, if they were allowed to take as much time as they wanted. If pianists take an equivalent amount of care when forming the preliminary associations, they very rarely sincerely misread a note. Mistakes come from "having a go". Allow that early on, and you'll probably never come to read easily and with certainty - because your brain is loaded with memories of misconceptions about what means what. Anyone who doesn't think that taking the time to observe when you don't feel prepared for the note (and stopping to verify it by whatever methodology will give certainty) will improve reading skills (at all levels) should simply take the time to try it, before deciding that ease of reading is beyond them.
It's a bit hard to believe you seriously wrote that? Just like people with dementia just need to want to remember, and if they go slow enough, they will?But it certainly opened my eyes to the level of ignorance you have and explains much. I understand now that I have expected too much from you. It is probably not at all a case of you not willing to understand, you simply don't have the basic knowledge and/or imaginative abilities to do so. I don't even think it will help if you take your own advice and just read my posts slower...
I think I have improved a lot after this post and developed a good relationship with my teacher. Although still under much pressure every class, I seem to get used to it and don't feel nervous any longer playing in front of him or even anyone else. This is good actually. But still, sometimes he can still be very mad at me when I just can't reach his standards.
Topic: get scolded by piano teacher 