interpret a metronome beat , SOUNDS SILLY

[ignaceii]

Perhaps it sounds silly but I need to know how to understand metronome beats.
I am largely autodidact, apart from the private lessons.
I was looking at Moscheles 12 studies op 95.
1st study. Beat 3/8, ok. Metronoom : 1/4. (1/4 dotted) so that makes 1 beat per 1/8. Value 116
Ok. Now I start at the left with the metronome marker. He swings to the right and comes back to the left. Obvious of course.
Question is the duration of 1/8 left-right (as he clicks there) or left-right-left (say 1 complete cycle with 2 clicks.

The study is marked allegro non troppo I guess, but certainly allegro. If it is the first case left right, then I say completely unplayable for me, at least presto. 116.
If it is case nr 2 perhaps I can manage that.
Theoretically I suppose it is case nr 1 but, be fair, undoable. And this is the case for the most met markings. No correspondence between met mark and the named, allegro, andante, ...

This is utterly confusing.

[iansinclair]

I have always been of the opinion that the best use for a metronome is as a projectile.  Desperate contraptions.

In your specific case, though, the marking is for every click.  So every click is an eighth, and you are setting at 116.  Which is, I agree, clipping right along.  However, although the metronome is having you bat along at 116 to an eighth, the actual pulse of the music is just the first beat of each measure; the other two are not as emphasized -- the actual pulse of the music isn't 116, it's about 40 or a bit less -- which is vastly different.

Which doesn't mean you have to play it at that speed, either.  The tempo you settle on is the one that makes the most sense to you, musically.

[ignaceii]

Sorry, I don't get it. It's 116 at every click no, throughout the piece. I do not understand your jump from 116 to 40.
I heard Pierce Lane on Hyperion and that is correct, about 80 I guess, must try it out.
Please explain.

[coda_colossale]

116 is the value of an eight note. The value of a dotted quarter note is about 40. One click is for an eight note (116), two for a quarter note (58), three for a dotted quarter note (38,6).
And the piece is in 12/8 rhythm. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacrusis .

[ignaceii]

The dotted quarter has a value of 116.
The beat is on 1/8. The piece is in 3/8.
So, you're telling me that the beat on the 1/8 is about 40.
So, I should set the met at 40 ? But then I have 40 BPM and not 116 ?

Still confused. But I'll find out on the internet.

[iansinclair]

The dotted quarter has a value of 116.
The beat is on 1/8. The piece is in 3/8.
So, you're telling me that the beat on the 1/8 is about 40.
So, I should set the met at 40 ? But then I have 40 BPM and not 116 ?

Still confused. But I'll find out on the internet.

No.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  The eighth note beat is 116.  Period.  116 eighth notes per minute.  Now, however, the pulse of the music is three eighth notes in a group ONE two three ONE two three.  A dotted quarter.  So the pulse of the dotted quarter and the music is about 40.

If you find that using the metronome at 116 on the eighth notes is making you emphasize all of the eighth notes equally, set it instead to 39 and make sure the first note of the three note group comes on the click, keeping the other two equal.

[ignaceii]

Can't even put the met on 39, too slow. If I would play 3 times 39, I would play molto largo.
No, I don't get your explanation. Honesty is more valuable than make a pose.
Thanks anyway.
Funny nobody also gives a try to explain. Too easy for the masters ?

[dima_76557]

@ ignaceii

The tempo "116" is indicated for the tempo of a dotted quarter (= 3 eighth notes within one click). If the beat were given for every eighth note in that piece, then you would get 116 x 3 = MM 348.

[iansinclair]

Can't even put the met on 39, too slow. If I would play 3 times 39, I would play molto largo.
No, I don't get your explanation. Honesty is more valuable than make a pose.
Thanks anyway.
Funny nobody also gives a try to explain. Too easy for the masters ?

I am sorry that you cannot understand my explanation.  I have tried.  You're on your own now.

[timothy42b]

I'm not familiar with the Moscheles but the OPs description really does sound like 1 beat per measure at 116.

The piece is in 3/8.

There would be 3 eighth notes per measure, or 1 dotted quarter, or some other combination.

It is very common to give the metronome indication for the quarter note or dotted quarter note, and that is how I interpret the OPs post.

If that is the case, he must fit 3 eighth notes into that one beat at 116.

Now, for the other question.

The first click of the metronome starts measure 1.  The second click of the metronome ends measure 1 and starts measure 2.  The third click of the metronome ends measure two and starts measure 3. 

So you would play your first eighth note exactly on the metronome beat, so exactly that the beat disappears.  Then you quick play two more eighth notes waiting for the next beat, and your 4th eighth note will land exactly on the next click of the metronome.

Yes, the pendulum goes back and forth, but it clicks on the end of travel in each direction, and that is the beat. 

And this might indeed be too fast, depending on your skill.  Set it slower if you need to.  But keep playing a steady tempo, this is not a place for rubato. 

[ignaceii]

Ok, that means as you all say, 3 1/8s in a measure of 116 BPM.
Let me say you, I tried 1 1/8 on the first click at 116 and so on, and that was insane, given the allegro stated in front.
Now, it really becomes a nightmare, as you have to be able to play 3 1/8s in 116, or 1/8 at 348.
Does such mets exist ? What is this, prestissimo, square 10 ?

If this is correct wouldn't you say something is very wrong here ?
Try it on IMSLP Moscheles op 95. 3 1/8s at 348 per hour, per 1/8.

[j_menz]

Moscheles Op 95 No 1 - Zorn ( a.k.a. Courreaux or Crath) - Just to be clear we have the right piece.

Time signature 12/8

Metronome indication: Dotted crotchet (1/4 note) = 116

That means there are three eighth-notes (quavers) to the click, or 6 sixteenth notes (semiquavers).

There are 4 clicks to the bar.

It is clicks, not full oscillations of the metronome. Each click.

So, for the first full bar, the clicks fall on each of the quaver (1/8 note) octaves in the bass.  The other notes fall between the clicks. So do the rests - and be sure to count them in.

If that seems too fast then use a slower tempo at first.

If you need more help getting the semiquavers (1/16th notes) even, then multiply the 116 by 6. That is going to be really fast (and possibly faster than your metronome goes), so use a much slower setting until you get them even.

Then divide what you have the metronome set at by two  and count each click at that setting that to each quaver (18/note) - ie, two semiquavers (1/16th note) to each click.  

Once you have that even, divide what you had the metronome set at by 3 and use that for each group of three quavers (1/8th notes), and then speed it up slowly each time you play it until that setting is 116.

[michaeljames]

Where are you at in the learning of this piece?  You should NOT be using a metronome to learn this piece, unless you want to start MUCH slower.

It seems like you are quite confused. And so am I by these answers.  You say the time signature is 3/8...someone else says it is 12/8.  Which is it?

Never mind...I was completely wrong.

[j_menz]

Which is it?

The score says 12/8.

[michaeljames]

Skip it.  I am completely wrong.

[j_menz]

That's fine...the value of the 1/8 note wouldn't change.  It would still be 3 beats = 116, or 38.66 per beat (1 beat for each 1/8 note).

Nope, you need to multiply, not divide.

If dotted crotchet = 116, quaver = 348.

[michaeljames]

I am completely wrong! haha Sorry.

[michaeljames]

I'm wrong.

[j_menz]

I think I am right.

If every quaver is played at 38.6, each quaver lasts 1/38.6 minutes so a dotted crotchet lasts 3 x 1/38.6ths of a minute = 1/12.87th of a minute. Which is the same of a metronome beat of 12.87. Very slow.

If every quaver is played at 348, each quaver lasts 1/348th of a minute, so a dotted crotchet lasts 3 x 1/348th of a minute = 1/116th of a minute. Which is the same as a metronome beat of 116. Just right.

I'm wrong.

 

No wonder I hate the wretched things.

[michaeljames]

If every quaver is played at 38.6, each quaver lasts 1/38.6 minutes so a dotted crotchet lasts 3 x 1/38.6ths of a minute = 1/12.87th of a minute. Which is the same of a metronome beat of 12.87. Very slow.

If every quaver is played at 348, each quaver lasts 1/348th of a minute, so a dotted crotchet lasts 3 x 1/348th of a minute = 1/116th of a minute. Which is the same as a metronome beat of 116. Just right.

 

No wonder I hate the wretched things.

ME TOO!!! LOL

[dima_76557]

Ok, that means as you all say, 3 1/8s in a measure of 116 BPM.
Let me say you, I tried 1 1/8 on the first click at 116 and so on, and that was insane, given the allegro stated in front.
Now, it really becomes a nightmare, as you have to be able to play 3 1/8s in 116, or 1/8 at 348.
Does such mets exist ? What is this, prestissimo, square 10 ?

If this is correct wouldn't you say something is very wrong here ?
Try it on IMSLP Moscheles op 95. 3 1/8s at 348 per hour, per 1/8.

The end result is not quite as frighteningly fast as you think it is. Actually, the piece is quite doable in terms of speed, but your mental approach should be correct from the very beginning. This includes AVOIDING the metronome in the initial learning stage.

When we use the metronome to practise a piece, we are not at all interested in absolute speed markings, but rather in dividing note groups correctly and evenly.

1) Four groups of 3 eighth notes in one bar (1-2-3, 1-2-3, etc.), whereby the first note of each group gets a "click". Start at 40, 60, or whatever is convenient.

2) To get the sound of the sixteenth notes, you divide the eighth notes like this:

TAK-a-tak-a-tak-a,
TAK-a-tak-a-tak-a,
TAK-a-tak-a-tak-a
TAK-a-tak-a-tak-a

whereby each metronome click falls on the capitalized "TAK". It is not very difficult to pronounce it, even at a tempo of "116" if you group correctly. What can be pronounced is also quite playable with the fingers after a little training.

[ignaceii]

Oh yes, the piece is in 12/8 but my post wasn't silly after all.
The question remains. You put the met on 116.
What does this 116 represents. 3 quavers, dotted crotch.
Do I play then 3 quavers per 116, insanity of course, or  does 116 represent a measure. Far worse.
You see, I am the one who asks a at first sight fairly simple question.
But by the looks of the replies, my god, we are not yet there.
Iansinclair doesn't play anymore. I did not understand you ian, the rest neither so I see.
Urtext. VIENNA 1919.
I want to know what it those days allegro meant. I want a historic base, and then slow down. In this case pull on the breaks it seems.
Don't stop until this can easily be explained.
What a joke.

[vladimir_gouldowsky]

Here is the answer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/116_(number)

[anima55]

Hi Ignaceii

I'm not quite sure why you have said 'What a joke' because your question has been answered very reasonably by several members here.

I'm not familiar with this piece but no matter because a metronome marking is perfectly clear.  All metronome markings consist of two pieces of information - 1.  The value of the beat and 2.  The speed of that beat.

Therefore, if it says that the dotted crotchet is 116, this means that each dotted crotchet beat is played at a speed of 116.  If the piece is in 12/8 there would be four beats in a bar, so each dotted crotchet or group of three quavers (same value) would be played at 116.

In general, 116 is considered to be allegro which means quick and lively.  This is not presto although it is fairly fast because there are three quavers to fit into the beat rather than 2 as in simple time.  Compound time signatures may appear fairly fast because of this.

There are certain members here who are sincerely happy to help those with questions so it really is quite 'off' of you to use the phrase 'What a joke'.  I'm not quite sure what you are trying to prove here but hopefully you will now understand how to interpret a metronome marking.  If you read back through some of the posts, you will see your question has been answered very clearly several times.  If not, then it may be that there is a communication problem which may require you to rephrase your question.

[dima_76557]

Do I play then 3 quavers per 116, insanity of course, or  does 116 represent a measure. Far worse.

The historic markings for "Allegro" can be found online. For "allegro" that would be approximately quarter note = 109–132 BPM (as per wikipedia), assumed FOUR sixteenth notes to the beat.

HOWEVER, the tempo/speed indicated by Moscheles feels much, much faster because there are 6 sixteenth notes to the beat/pulse. If we calculate back for the speed of the smallest details (=sixteenth notes), then we get: 116x6=696/4=174 BPM, which is presto.

There may be a pedagogical reason behind the indicated tempo. For example, if you can do this etude (for really advanced players!) at the intended tempo, you will have the reserve "power" to play it really musically at "allegro non troppo". I suggest you take the tempo of the final execution at BPM 80, which calculates back as 80x6=480/4= 120, which is a perfect allegro in terms of speed associations (8 movements per second, divided over several fingers is not "speedy"). Besides, if you play musically, you never stress the speed of the details, but you emphasize the heartbeat, the pulse of the piece.

[ignaceii]

Hi Ignaceii

I'm not quite sure why you have said 'What a joke' because your question has been answered very reasonably by several members here.

I'm not familiar with this piece but no matter because a metronome marking is perfectly clear.  All metronome markings consist of two pieces of information - 1.  The value of the beat and 2.  The speed of that beat.

Therefore, if it says that the dotted crotchet is 116, this means that each dotted crotchet beat is played at a speed of 116.  If the piece is in 12/8 there would be four beats in a bar, so each dotted crotchet or group of three quavers (same value) would be played at 116.

In general, 116 is considered to be allegro which means quick and lively.  This is not presto although it is fairly fast because there are three quavers to fit into the beat rather than 2 as in simple time.  Compound time signatures may appear fairly fast because of this.

There are certain members here who are sincerely happy to help those with questions so it really is quite 'off' of you to use the phrase 'What a joke'.  I'm not quite sure what you are trying to prove here but hopefully you will now understand how to interpret a metronome marking.  If you read back through some of the posts, you will see your question has been answered very clearly several times.  If not, then it may be that there is a communication problem which may require you to rephrase your question.

Sorry for my last quote on joke. But I mean was, as I first thought to be silly, turned out to be not so silly at all. Cynically sad, a joke.

[ignaceii]

I thank all members in order to explain the topic.
Having sad that, when I first played the first bar, and I thought it was 1/8 at the 116 pulse, and I had to integrate the 1/16 notes in it, I said to myself who can hold such a speed.
Now, as I understood you not only have to play 1/8, but 3 1/8st at 116. The 1/16 notes unplayable.
I mean is this somewhat more than allegro ?
Who put that 116 there in the first place.
Try, take the study and try to play it at the indicated tempo.
I don't say, I haven't learned anything, I still am baffled by the shear speed of the pulse.
Beethoven also had such markings.
I think, if there is someone honest, when he tries, he'll come up with the same troubles in terms of thoughts.
If i put it at 80, that means a dotted quaver on the pulse, still is F1 racing.
Quite intriguing ? But sheer impossible.

[timothy42b]

I just looked at it.

Wow!

I didn't realize there were continuous sixteenths at that speed.  Yes, it is indeed difficult.  At least IMO. 

[ignaceii]

That's the point Timothy, I already didn't manage at 1 1/8, let alone 3 3/8 at 116.
I know we don't mind about those figures. But they are there and totally incompatible with the indication allegro non troppo I think, allegro anyway.
Thanks for support.

[dima_76557]

I think, if there is someone honest, when he tries, he'll come up with the same troubles in terms of thoughts.

In the foreword to the etudes, it says that Moscheles assumed that the pianist had gone through his more technical etudes, and those are all of the virtuoso type (light salon style with extreme tempo requirements), but you get used to it. Even if M 80 feels like "F1 racing" to you now, you will change your mind later on as soon as you get the overal simplicity and pulse of the piece. Just take your time and don't force your natural growth. Good luck!

[ignaceii]

Well I'm curious to hear a performance at the speed indicated. If you can, you can send it.
Perhaps others have a recording.
And that is allegro for you ?
What is vivace, presto, prestissimo then ?

Then he must change allegro. If I find a recording I let you know.
To be followed...

[ignaceii]

Even allegro non troppo.

[dima_76557]

Well I'm curious to hear a performance at the speed indicated. If you can, you can send it.

This is an overview of a CD by Piers Lane with the whole set of etudes; fragments only. Seems to me that he takes the tempo required (116):
https://www.allmusic.com/album/moscheles-complete-concert-studies-mw0001392260

[timothy42b]

Well, it's obviously playable.  It's fast, but not dense.  I don't even think it's a virtuoso piece.

But I admit I can't play it. 

[ignaceii]

It comes very close Dima, perhaps bit under.
I presume the allegro character comes from the left hand 1/8s with stops. It seems quite difficult to pick a correct one.
Allegro, too slow, vivace
The dense difficult 1/16 runs make it difficult to characterize.
I made an attempt playing it. But I will start by 1 1/8 per beat.
I have the same recording I think.

[j_menz]

The allegro character comes from there being 4 beats to the bar at 116. That's a fairly conventional moderate allegro.

The speed difficulties arise because each beat represents 3 sub-beats and oft times 6 actual notes.

The tempo of a piece (pulse per minute) doesn't always bear any correlation to the speed required to play the individual notes.

[dima_76557]

I presume the allegro character comes from the left hand 1/8s with stops. It seems quite difficult to pick a correct one.
Allegro, too slow, vivace
The dense difficult 1/16 runs make it difficult to characterize.

Key to the musical solution is that the groups of sixteenth notes are to be played like impulses of anger, working towards their culmination (the next eighth note). Ra-ka-ta-ka-ta-ka-BANG! Ra-ka-ta-ka-ta-ka-BANG! is the sound you want.
I tried the piece myself. M 80 doesn't work. This really needs to be M 116 to express what the title suggests - Zorn (=anger).

Instead of practising the piece as written in a slow tempo, I would suggest skipping many of the sixteenth-note impulses at first (just imagine them), keeping both tempo and rhythm going, but adhering to the fingering you will use in the end product. You may find this a crazy thought, but moving/dancing to Mr. Lane's CD may also help to establish the right pulse. All the details in the piece should obey this pulse. After you have worked out the technical details of the sixteenth notes separately, you can then easily fit those groups into the whole without destroying either tempo, or rhythm, or phrasing, etc. of the piece.

[ignaceii]

I can agree with this.
Indeed anger comes from the build up inside like running 1/16s at high velocity.
At some point he uses an emphasized attack of 1 1/16s in both hands, chromatic I think, cause
it needs some puzzling.
I must admit that these are more than studies. They tell a story, perhaps even better than Chopins, I make it simple I know. But I'm serious, these pieces are neglected on the stage, luckily there are the Pierce Lanes, and Howard Shelleys, and Houghs that save them from neglect, and
utterly misunderstanding of these composers.
They are at the same time difficult, but what a result in character.

Those interested in a complete encyclopedia of piano music, there is a french one in 2 volumes, 3000 pages by Guy Sacre. This is the bible.
Pianiste magazine interviews a 24 old pianist Noark, who already recorded some cds of a russian less known composer,who tells he got the encyclopedia for his 12th birthday, and carries him everywhere around.
The books analyzes every known piano piece and tells about their composers.
I was lucky to find a copy 2nd hand, well used, but in good condition. Surely sold out everywhere, or not available.
Those who wants more details, isbn, year of pub,... just ask me.